Pacific Outdoor Equipment Sleeping Mat advice

[Youngie]

I am considering a lighter sleeping mat/ pad than my 1150g thermarest.
I have seen a couple of references on this forum to US based Pacific Outdoor Equipment (POE) Sleeping mats.

I would be interested to hear if owners of POE sleeping mats have encountered any problems e.g. leaks ?

I don't fully understand how the insulating properties of POE 4 season sleeping mats work. e.g keep body warmth from disappearing into the ground or stopping cold coming from ground up to you or a combination of the two. I gather a 4 season mat is designed for use in cold /snow conditions.

Can a 4 season mat also be comfortably used on warmish summer nights in Victoria / Tasmania, or does a 3 season mat provide a significantly cooler base to sleep on during milder weather of summer?

[DonQx]

I would be interested to hear if owners of POE sleeping mats have encountered any problems e.g. leaks ?

I've had 3 Ether Thermo 6 ... hope I've get the name right ... bought 2 or 3 years ago (technology has moved on, so maybe my comments aren't fully relevant any more.

#1 and #2 got replaced under warranty coz the insulating foam inside the top of the baffles started coming off.

#3 got chucked out recently coz I couldn't find & fix a very slow leak.

I don't fully understand how the insulating properties of POE 4 season sleeping mats work. e.g keep body warmth from disappearing into the ground or stopping cold coming from ground up to you or a combination of the two. I gather a 4 season mat is designed for use in cold /snow conditions.

They have thin layers of foam inside the baffles, either at the top only or at top & bottom (not sure about POE, Exped has it top & bottom). This prevents the air circulating inside the mat between cold bottom and warmer top from reaching you.

Can a 4 season mat also be comfortably used on warmish summer nights in Victoria / Tasmania, or does a 3 season mat provide a significantly cooler base to sleep on during milder weather of summer?

Suse & me went on a 7 week motorbike trip from Tassie through the Outback to humid/hot Darwin last year. Took Exped DownMat 7's. Don't think that it made much of a difference in the heat. Did make heaps of a differerence during cold nites tho.


I've got an Exped SynMat 7.5 Basic now. Happy with it so far. Lighter at 680g, no pump, prefer to blow it up by mouth instead of pumping gymnastics inside a small tent during dodgy weather.

Sold my DownMat, think it is an overkill for most people ... don't think most people would notice the difference between a DownMat with ~R6 and a SynMat with ~R5 for same weight, less cost and less moisture sensitive filling.

Suse loves her DownMat and is keeping it.


Found at http://www.expedlife.com/p/2011-north-american-mat-comparison.html ...

[Maelgwn]

I had one of these:

http://pacoutdoor.com/sleeping-pads/view/peak-oyl-lite

#1 and #2 both had mysterious leaks where the foam attached to the top. (ie lots of tiny leaks). They were ok when new but developed over time, both were credited under warranty. I used my credit from #2 to get a thermarest instead and personally would not buy any other brand. I have heard that returns on non thermarest brand pads are more frequent (may have improved in recent times) and thermarest returns are typically from abuse. I have had no trouble with my thermarest, so I dont think I was doing anything wrong to the POE. They may have improved, the last one I had I got about two years ago.

O and I have a three season mat to save weight and use it with foam underneath when it is really cold. I don't think a too warm pad (ie four season) will be an issue, you can ventilate on top (ie through your sleeping bag off).

[Youngie]

Thanks DonQx and Maelgwn.
From your experiences it sounds like there are some durability issues with Pacific Outdoor Equipment compared to Thermarest.
That is exactly the information that I was looking for.

Likewise your comments on using sleeping mats in different climatic conditions. I was really scraching my head on whether a good deal on a 4 season mat would give me a versatile mat that I could comfortably use all year or a mat that could only be comfortably used in the cold weather.

Sounds like Thermarest is still the way to go.

How long would it have taken some up and coming marketing guru at Exped to dream up and refine the "Which Sleeping Mat Do I Use" table?

[pazzar]

I had a POE mat, it last one walk, before it started leaking. I now use a Mountain Designs Pro Series mat. They are cheaper than Thermarest, and so far I've had no issues with it. Also check out the Exped range. Although I haven't used one yet, I have heard many good things about them.

Cheers,

Jared

[ninjapuppet]

Ive got the shorter version of the ether 6 mat.
I generally prefer vertical baffles than horizontal ones but my ether is only a shortie, and find it very hard to get comfy so dont end up using it. Ive tried to clip my backpack onto the end of it and shove clothes in to raise the ankles up, but still it doesnt feel natural.

My new favourite, the inertia Xframe on the left folds down to the size of my fist, is much lighter and is actually comfy too!
Tried it on the weekend sleeping on my stomach, side and back and have found that its the best compromise between size, weight and comfort. The biggest plus is that it only requires 6 puffs of air, compared to my short POE which requires 12 puffs. The neoair requires 20-25 puffs of air.

The downmat is the most comfy, but oh man, what a pain in the buTT to inflate! it takes forever and its material on the bottom doesnt feel as tough as the intertia xframe.

[ninjapuppet]

Just had a few questions from others regarding the need for correct height for the xframe mat.

I'm 170cm, and would be on the lower limits of what its designed for. I think if you're 6 foot, the mat would be ideal.
However, Ive solved the problem by using a pillow - something not mentioned elsewhere on the net.

when my ankles are placed at the bottom of the pad where they should be, my head sits on an edge almost falling into a gap, but with a pillow, your head is supported properly. problem solved.

[Youngie]

Pazzar, you have just confirmed concerns raised by Maelgwn and DonQx about problems with leaks with the Pacific Outdoor Equipment mats. No doubt some other brand names also have similar issues.

It's good to get a heads up on these things in advance rather than outlaying the coin and then waking up in teh middle of the night lying on a deflated sleeping pad.

[Youngie]

Ninja, it looks like you are running a bootleg outdoor equipment shop out of your lounge room. That is an impressive range of sleeping mats. You have even got the blue camping kitchen sink in stock.

On a more serious note, it's great to get the benefit of the accumulated knowledge of experienced walkers on this forum.

[DonQx]

The downmat is the most comfy

I guess that's relative to your other mats?

IMO any inflatable mat with 7 cm thickness should be pretty comfy ... doesn't matter whether it has down in it or synthetic or air only.

Down is the most expensive option, highest R rating (but how much do you really need? ... my guess is that R3.5-4 is more than enuf for most people under most conditions) also theoretically more prone to breaking down if humidity gets trapped inside the mat. I'm not arguing against DownMats, they are a great piece of equipment, I'm only thinking that they're overkill for many who have them.

[ninjapuppet]

yeh, I meant it as relative to my other mats - any 7cm mat is going to be more comfy than a 1cm foam mat.

Knowing what i know now, i probally would have gone with a synmat too.

[Franco]

The DM 7 is indeed a bit of a pain to blow up but I found that using a knee (over the valve) and two hands (on the spongy bit) speeds up things somewhat.
Something some may consider (if you are using a full length mat) is instead of using a pillow , put something (clothing) under the mat to lift it up.
Less chances of that moving off the mat too (for me...)

Franco

[DonQx]

The absence of pumping up pain is what I like about the Exped Symat 7.5 Basic ... no pump ... 13 deep breaths ... and the weight saving

[Nuts]

Does that model down mat have the hand diagrams? Flat palms, rocking forward from the back of rear palm first makes them actually quiet easy and quick to inflate.. Ive seen people try all sorts of things despite the diagrams, usually going too fast as well...

[Drifting]

Yeah- I found going slow and letting the little foam thing inside fully reinflate after each pump greatly speeds the process up.

[sailfish]

I don't fully understand how the insulating properties of POE 4 season sleeping mats work. e.g keep body warmth from disappearing into the ground or stopping cold coming from ground up to you or a combination of the two. I gather a 4 season mat is designed for use in cold /snow conditions.

Can a 4 season mat also be comfortably used on warmish summer nights in Victoria / Tasmania, or does a 3 season mat provide a significantly cooler base to sleep on during milder weather of summer?

Cold is an absence of heat, in other words cold does not exist, it is only a perception of less heat so it is physically impossible for cold to come up to you from the ground.
Air is a good insulator if kept still and your sleeping bag only slows air movement within the loft or its fill. Your body weight compress the fill under you squeezing out the air so is ineffictive under you. You lose heat from your body into the less warm ground which has much greater mass than you so acts as a heat sink drawing your body heat into it. Heat is lost by convection and by radiation. Convection is by contact with the air in the matt and by air circulation to lose heat through contact with the ground. This air circulation is not too great as the warmer air next to you body is less dense than the colder air next to the ground so the air tends to stay stratified but there are always some eddies happening. Foam or down etc tends to inhibit the air movement and therefore inhibits heat loss through convection so is insulative. Heat is also lost as infra red radiation. That is like when you feel the sun burning you even when the air is cold. You can put a space blanket under your matt and this reflects most of the radiation back to your body to re-warm you. If a space blanket is used against the body, it will pass heat by convection and you can still feel cold.

As an ordinary uninsulated inflatable matt loses a relative small amount of heat by convection, the addition of a space blanket under the matt is very effective at reflecting your radiant heat back to you. This seems to be the principle behind the NeoAir. With an insulated matt, the radiant heat is absorbed into the top layer warming it but this does not convect well through the whole matt so a space blanket under it is not as effective but can be still be some benefit.

I wound say in order of effectiveness from least to most:
On Ground
On ground with space blanket ground sheet
Uninsulated inflatable
Uninsulated inflatable with space blanket
Insulated
Insulated with space blanket

Within these options, the further off the ground you are the warmer you will be.

Regards,
Ken

[Youngie]

Sailfish, thanks for your detailed explanation on the science of heat loss. You have cleared up a few misconceptions that I had.
With the benefit of hindsight I should have said I don't REALLY (rather than fully) understand how the insulating properties of a POE 4 season sleeping mat works.
The order of effectiveness puts it all in context for my little brain to process.