Single Walled Tents: Pros and Cons?

[creeping_moses]

Hello there,

I'm looking to get a 4 season tent to use in Tasmania, and New Zealand conditions, and have been very interested in the Mountain Hardwear Ev2 or Ev3.
I am unsure how well the single walled design would work for the Tasmanian climate and conditions.
I also like the MSR Fury 2, which is a double walled tent.

How do these compare?
What are the benefits of different designs?
What other tents might be appropriate?

Cheers

[tasadam]

I am unsure how well the single walled design would work for the Tasmanian climate and conditions.

This search might help a bit.
I wouldn't recommend one for Tassie conditions.
Good luck.

[nq111]

Hmmm - cons mostly.

Double wall Trango or Mountain 25 a bit heavier but much better.

[Nuts]

Adams usually pretty good at linking things but that was a pretty poor effort did you look where it went?
There Is a lot of previous discussion but people dont usually buy a lot of different tents and it often gets somewhat opinionated. Its all good but kinda tunnel visioned

Pros: Lighter, more internal space for the size & 'footprint', potentially cheaper/ less complex, _____, ______, ?
Cons: Fewer current options, harder to deal with condensation, ____, ____, ?

Ive used single walled shelters right through winter, though enclosed 'shelters' (usually with a bivy in recent years but i cant recall it ever being really necessary), not 'tents'. I started this way but can understand the concerns from those who havent tried it. The technology will likely take the leap sooner or later once new fabrics and designs have 'history'. Once the small manufacturers pave the way for the big players to start making options for the masses.

I doubt many here would have recommended or be familiar with those particular tents nq111, Hilleberg (as you can see from phils posts lol) and Macpac still seem popular.
creeping_moses (lol), have a look at Ninjapuppets 'Brooks Range' tent, seems to be holding up well if you want an idea of what is becoming possible? I was thinking that online access would give us a more level playing field but maybe the traditional lagg (especially from us Tasmanians) is live and well

[nq111]

I doubt many here would have recommended or be familiar with those particular tents nq111, Hilleberg (as you can see from phils posts lol) and Macpac still seem popular.

Yeah - i assume from the suggested tents in the original post that something substantial is desired and the mountain hardware ev2/3 was suggested.

Mountain Hardware Trango or North Face Mountain 25 are similar double skin tents.

I know everyone hates North Face but they still make good gear and a brilliant tent.

I understand the single walls are generally best for specific cold/dry mountaineering use where the weight saving (with still a substantial tent) is crucial and the conditions allow the shell to perform as intended. In most other conditions, particuarly cool-wet-freezing-cold-wet Tassie there seems to almost universal condemnation of them. Heavy rain conditions (highly likely in Tas or NZ) seem to create particuarly miserable conditions inside.

[Nuts]

almost universal condemnation of them. Heavy rain conditions (highly likely in Tas or NZ) seem to create particuarly miserable conditions inside.

Things change.. People buy few tents, spend a lot of money and some proudly defend purchase decisions.

[Nuts]

Just to add that my thoughts on this are 'discussion' not recommendation. Who knows what to 'recommend', a three walled tent would satisfy some peoples mind set. A bivy bag cant blow down... each to their own

[Son of a Beach]

I'm actually considering a single walled tent for Tasmania. Well, almost. It would still want to have a bug net, or mozzie skirt to keep the pests out. I've heard a lot about the pros and cons, but would be interested to hear from people who've actually used them first hand in Tasmania, including which models they used.

I understand that the main issues people have with them is condensation, and cold. In theory, the cold could be dealt with using a good sleeping bag, etc (mine are usually too warm anyhow). For condensation, I'm wondering if a pyramid/tipi shaped tent would allow the condensation to drip all the way down to the outer edge, without getting any dripping into the middle of the tent. If this turns out to be a non-issue with steep-sided tent styles, then I would probably buy one.

[Maelgwn]

I understand the single walls are generally best for specific cold/dry mountaineering use where the weight saving (with still a substantial tent) is crucial and the conditions allow the shell to perform as intended. In most other conditions, particuarly cool-wet-freezing-cold-wet Tassie there seems to almost universal condemnation of them. Heavy rain conditions (highly likely in Tas or NZ) seem to create particuarly miserable conditions inside.

+1

While I didn't look properly, the tents proposed are mountaineering tents, meaning they are designed for drier conditions where typically there will be much less condensation (even if its snowing, its still generally drier than rain). It is also more critical that they are warmer inside. So normally they will not be as well ventilated and as able to deal with condensation as double wall tents.

As far as I know, there are no real players in the market for single skin four season tents (with a real floor) for non mountaineering use.

Saying that, you might find a tipi/pyramid style shelter works for you. And bathtub floors for them are available from the cottage manufacturers.

[Maelgwn]

I'm actually considering a single walled tent for Tasmania. Well, almost. It would still want to have a bug net, or mozzie skirt to keep the pests out. I've heard a lot about the pros and cons, but would be interested to hear from people who've actually used them first hand in Tasmania, including which models they used.

I understand that the main issues people have with them is condensation, and cold. In theory, the cold could be dealt with using a good sleeping bag, etc (mine are usually too warm anyhow). For condensation, I'm wondering if a pyramid/tipi shaped tent would allow the condensation to drip all the way down to the outer edge, without getting any dripping into the middle of the tent. If this turns out to be a non-issue with steep-sided tent styles, then I would probably buy one.

The condensation is to do with the pitching, if it is a still night and you are next to a creek, then condensation is fairly unavoidable but reduced by pitching the shelter higher and leaving the door open. If it is windy, then only a small gap around the bottom of the shelter will leave enough of a gap to ensure ventilation.

Saying that, the ventilation issue is probably overplayed a fair bit, its really not that bad most of the time.

[Nuts]

As far as I know, there are no real players in the market for single skin four season tents (with a real floor) for non mountaineering use.

There is np's tent from this topic: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6647&p=82746&hilit=cuben#p82746
Most of the other 'mountaineering' options seem to use fabrics that are designed for cold/dry but Ive been hearing that the Cuben (this tent is made from) doesnt suffer as much from condensation? A problem in making a small tent for local conditions is that you may have no choice but to brush the side. Just received a roll the other day, I prefer larger sizes to help with condensation, we'll see.

[Maelgwn]

As far as I know, there are no real players in the market for single skin four season tents (with a real floor) for non mountaineering use.

There is np's tent from this topic: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6647&p=82746&hilit=cuben#p82746
Most of the other 'mountaineering' options seem to use fabrics that are designed for cold/dry but Ive been hearing that the Cuben (this tent is made from) doesnt suffer as much from condensation? A problem in making a small tent for local conditions is that you may have no choice but to brush the side. Just received a roll the other day, I prefer larger sizes to help with condensation, we'll see.

I don't really buy it, given there is no ventilation and cuben is supposed to have pretty high water pressure rating?

+1, yes single skin tents generally will need to be a bit (or a lot) bigger than there double skinned equivalents.

[Nuts]

I have trouble getting my head around it also. Roger Caffin made the comment that it perhaps has something to do with the material being (thinner/) better at adjusting to temperature differentials than other offerings, not so much the ventilation thing. Having seen pleanty of condensation on the inside of an open tarp I'm agreeing that ventilation is only part of the story?

[Tony]

Been reading this thread with interest, I have been using a single skin tents for a while, and have used them in all seasons, I own four of them, Black Diamond Betamid, Tarptent Contrail, Tarptent Moment (not used it yet) and a Zpacks Hexamid.

I have used the betamid in very cold windless conditions and managed to sleep OK, I have used the Contrail in very moist cold conditions where the condensation inside and outside was frozen, when packing up there was enough ice to throw several snowballs at my mate.

What I do not like about the Contrail single skin tent is that when it is raining heavy there is a fine spray that comes off the inside, I find this annoying and very hard to sleep with, I also understand that this also happens with the Moment, that is why there you can get a breathable inner liner available for the Moment.

Last summer I used my Zpacks Hexamid tent, one night it rained a bit but I did not notice any spray coming off the inside even though there was considerable condensation inside, I have also had condensation inside the Hexamid in cool windy conditions which as it has good ventilation I was surprised this happened.

For winter/snow I use a modified MD Neutrino 1, which is a double skin tent, the modifications are two extra guy lines at the lower end of the tent and a layer of thin cloth over the fly screen door to add extra warmth, the total weight including snow pegs is around 1.8kg. The extra guy lines have stabilized this tent and is fairly good in strong winds, though it is a bit noisy as the sides can flap around a bit. I am currently looking at replacing this tent with a lighter one.

Most of my walking is done in Alpine country mostly in the NSW Alpine parks KNP and Namagdi Park in the ACT, I have to be prepared for all conditions but these areas are generally drier than SW Tasmania. I purchased the Moment to replace the Neutrino but when all of the bits and pieces where added the weight is the same as my Neutrino and it is still only a single skin.

For winter use I am considering the Brooks Range Rocket Tent, I am planning a trip to SW Tasmania next year and from my experiences and from what I have read I would not consider the Rocket tent or any single skin tent suitable for heavy consistent rain at least not without some form of inner spray sheet, I do not consider a insect netting inner as a proper double skin.

I am happy with my Hexamid for my summer trips, I would like to have one tent suitable for winter in the mainland Alps and SW Tasmania; I still need to do some more research.

Just my2cw

Tony

[Nuts]

Great to have your input Tony:

* Did you have a any ground uncovered by a ground sheet in the hexamid?
* I noticed in the worst, heaviest rain with the Shangri-la tents a fine floating mist inside. i suspect this happens with all silnylon tents (and have heard that with the tarptent before), just unseen with a liner. It wasnt too bad, probably after a few days it would be a bit much with an uncovered down bag.

[Bluegum Mic]

Great to have your input Tony:

* Did you have a any ground uncovered by a ground sheet in the hexamid?
* I noticed in the worst, heaviest rain with the Shangri-la tents a fine floating mist inside. i suspect this happens with all silnylon tents (and have heard that with the tarptent before), just unseen with a liner. It wasnt too bad, probably after a few days it would be a bit much with an uncovered down bag.

Nuts out of curiosity how do you find the shangri la 3 in nasty weather. Have you had it in high winds, heavy snow 4 season stuff. One thing I'm curious about is the SL3 seems to have gone from a 3-4 season rated single skin shelter to a 3 with the 2010 "improvements". I'm wondering if this is because it's gone from 20d sil to 15d sil.

[Tony]

Great to have your input Tony:

* Did you have a any ground uncovered by a ground sheet in the hexamid?
* I noticed in the worst, heaviest rain with the Shangri-la tents a fine floating mist inside. i suspect this happens with all silnylon tents (and have heard that with the tarptent before), just unseen with a liner. It wasnt too bad, probably after a few days it would be a bit much with an uncovered down bag.

Hi Nuts,

Yes I did have some ground uncovered, I am currently using a GG Polycro ground sheet, it is a a bit small for the Hexamid but I have managed to stay dry, I currently have a door for the Hexamid but I am about to send the tent back to have the beak put on so I can cook in a vestibule, this will make the door not needed and at the same time I will get the custom made Cuben ground sheet.

I have not noticed any mist inside my Contrail other than the spray that I mentioned before.

Tony

[Nuts]

I have some (25gsm) cuben if diy is an option...
Curious about the condensation thing and how much any uncovered vegetation/transpiration contributes.

mic, I should have said hex3, I have both of the more recent models though havent had them in such a range of conditions. the hex3 is the model that we used commercially. Without checking I seem to recall the fabric being even heavier again? That aside, I dont think the fabric weight will be an issue, other tents use these light silnylons. With non-freestanding (especially tipis) with nothing to bend, the pegs and peg points are the weak link. Get these drum tight and I imagine they would handle as well as anything. That said, and while we used them extensively in the full range of conditions and in winter i would still hesitate to recommend them for somewhere where you have no choice but to camp up high in an exposed site. This is mainly because i have been in worse conditions in a tunnel tent and without the two standing side by side i would just be guessing. The comparison being all that really practically matters, I would use one myself but would almost definitely take a bivy to compensate. I'd imagine that inner tent you have will keep it warmer and take care of condensation pretty well but a bivy would likely give 'piece of mind'. The condensation is less of an issue with this size shelter. I'm sure youve worked some of this out, hope this helps.

[Bluegum Mic]

Thanks nuts. Yes unfortunately all their glowing reports of 4 season use come from the hex era (from memory a heavier epic fabric- shame none ever seem to come up second hand). Still a lot of positive comments from pre 2009 yet the current model their just doesn't seem to be much. I have a bivy and tyvek sleeping bag cover I guess I'm just curious as I'd love to take it out on the main range snowshoeing in Sept. We'll have to see.

[Nuts]

I havent heard any disaster stories though? The downside of the earlier model was the misting, apparently its not 'as bad' in the latest model. There arent many places I can think of in Tassie with so few options as the main range however, whatever the tent i'd be cautious.

[pazzar]

All the reviews I have read on the EV2 have said that they are great for high alpine kind of stuff, but they leak in even the slightest drizzle. I was looking at getting one, I want a tent for Tassie and beyond. Personally I dont think you can go past the WE Second Arrow, it will handle just about anything and doesn't weigh a tonne.

[etrangere]

almost universal condemnation of them. Heavy rain conditions (highly likely in Tas or NZ) seem to create particuarly miserable conditions inside.

Things change.. People buy few tents, spend a lot of money and some proudly defend purchase decisions.

You hit the nail on the head with that comment Nuts!!

I happen to be a Jeep Wrangler owner and from time to time browse Jeep forums. Heaven forbid anyone might even slightly suggest there are other 4WDs as good or even better than a Jeep, the responses become quite childish, nasty and very biased. Tents may not be as big a purchase as a vehicle but in the scheme of outdoor equipment they are certainly one of the more expensive purchases and peoples inability in giving unbiased reasoned critiques reflects that.

[ninjapuppet]

never knew jeep forums existed. LOL

I happened to buy a brand new jeep for $60k last year and would have to say, it would be one of the worst cars I had ever owned. Kept breaking down on me, even in its first 10,000km. sold it and will never look back even though i lost alot of money.
It doesnt mean jeeps in general are bad, nor does it indicate that other 4WDs will fare any better. Maybe mine was a dud, but my experience with jeep was not the best, hence I cant rave about it to friends and family or I will be lying.

back to topic: my take on single wall tents: you will require more tolerance to moisture and also require more "experience" in handling that extra moisture on multiday trips.
Pros: they are often lighter for the same interior size as a double wall, or they will be more spacious for a similar weight as a double wall.

[Nuts]

ha ha, i sold my jeep through the jeep forum... i guess you didn't 'get it' np, jeep's come with problems (no additional charge), you need something to fix (or talk about fixing) thats it: 'its a jeep thing'...

never knew jeep forums existed. LOL


back to topic: my take on single wall tents: you will require more tolerance to moisture and also require more "experience" in handling that extra moisture on multiday trips.
Pros: they are often lighter for the same interior size as a double wall, or they will be more spacious for a similar weight as a double wall.

This is probably right, need to be a bit more organised and with a bit more of a 'system', its only that though- 'a bit'. Still, probably safer avoided for those starting out with a first tent, especially for those with art head rather than craft head..

The weight (and bulk) savings can be substantial, moreso if taken a step further and not just buying a 'tent' without a ceiling liner. Separate floors, several options for summer/winter/duo/solo can make single wall setups very versitile.

[roysta]

Too many cons for me.
I became a Hilleberg fan last year and took my Nallo 2 to SW Tassie in Feb/Mar this year, went well in *&%$#! conditions.
A friend on that same trip had an Akto, nice tent as well.
Have had too much trouble with single walls in the past, moved on.