School groups, what is appropriate?

[Ent]

I am always reluctant to make negative comments about people that go the extra mile to make things happen so please read the below more as what can be done to improve things rather than stopping them. On the walk into Pelion on this June long weekend encountered the tail end of a large group of students that appeared to be by themselves. At least two were in front of this group by a sizable margin. A distance behind was another group accompanied by an adult with a "sweeper" at the the end stopped for lunch by himself. Weather conditions were intermittent very light snow more like drizzle, about what expected for this time of year. The track being the Arm River is pretty much a superhighway so it would take a "special" sort of student to get lost but still adult supervision appeared rather light. The students were well equipped but not happy campers as we encountered the tail end Charlies that gave the impression that a warm bedroom with a Playstation would have been their choice for a long weekend.

Various questioning revealed that the group was around 47 and the plan was that the group would have been split with one lot coming in from Cradle and the other the Arm River meeting at Pelion Hut. That is a heck of a number even for Pelion Hut to handle. The bad weather had forced a rethink so an in and out walk via the Arm River track was decided upon. As you can imagine the track in the non board walked areas was cut up pretty badly.

Sadly quite a number in the group appeared adherents to trash Tassie with litter from wrappers abounding on the track. Also found that there was socks and bits and pieces left at the hut along with a pretty indifferent clean up job.

I fully understand and support the decision to change the itinerary due to weather conditions but the original plan had 47 people hitting a hut for two days. This appears contrary to Parks and Wildlife's sensible guidelines for group sizes. As for the litter issue, it appears that the "sweeper" was needed to clean up after the ingrates. An international student I walk with comments with immense satisfaction on the litter free nature of Tassie bush and goes to extreme to clean up any misplaced item so I find such poor regard for the environment puzzling from an organised school group. I also find it disquieting that students from Victoria, and not outdoor types such as local Venturers, where wandering pretty much under their own steam. Sure the Arm River Track is well defined but there are one or two sections where a wrong turn combined with sizeable panic attack could cause a problem. Then again students could have simply followed the litter trail from the leaders of the group

In all a rather average effort I thought and wonder what are other peoples thoughts? It is my understanding that at least one local school limits numbers to the ten or so mark and I have never seen litter trails so good education of the students must take place. In fact, I got the feeling that the many of the students in this group were conscripts rather than volunteers to the walk. I would be interested to hear feedback from the trip organisers to correct any factual errors I might have made.

Regards Brett

[ILUVSWTAS]

That is interesting. I would have thought any outdoor Ed teacher with any sort of cluse or idea of what is appropriate and what ISNT appropriate, would maybe think that 47 is SLIGHTLY inappropriate.

My college teacher used to take us in 3 groups of 6 and we would meet at the end of the day to ensure we wernt seen as a large group of 18.
And we would also leave any area better than how we found it. I cannot understand how any teacher would allow what you are describing Brett. I also would like to hear them justify themselves. I am all for bringing pups into our world to show them the joys of bushwalking, but only when done right is it effective.

[Eott]

Having been on a school council for over a decade ,in the past, and experienced trying to overcome the attitude of "why we shouldn't do something" rather than " how we could" , I applaud teachers/leaders and the school on their iniative to introduce kids to the joys of bushwalking. However I can only concur with ILUVSWTAS as to the inappropriateness of the size of this group.
Brett didn't mention the number of adult supervisors but even if there was a good ratio of adults to kids managing a group this size I think magnifys the risks inherent in bushwalking.
It takes a lot of courage to take to take on the responsibilty to take kids into the bush and most kids don't get the chance because of this, so I would hope we could take the path of constructive crititisim rather than bagging these guys out too much, perhaps in hindsight they would agree with us anyway.

[Nuts]

Yer I agree, the number is way too high, why does this keep happening, surely there are checks and balances. Seems to me that the criticism doesnt go far enough. The realities of a group that big suggests that the walk shouldnt have went ahead and that the organisers had no idea from the start. Really... criticism is just something that has to be accepted and dealt with. Personally I could care less if the kids stay home, fat and safe, teachers ego's intact...

[pazzar]

I remember coming across a Victorian school group on the Moses Creek track in April 09. This was a group of about 10 girls, walking out with 2 teachers, fed up with the bush after 9 days of walking, cutting their trip short by 1 night. I didn't know at the time, but a few days earlier another member of their group went missing in the Cradle area, and that next night another boy went missing in the Walls, and was later found at Arm River. I don't know where the supervisors were, or how many there were. Fortunately these kids had good gear and most of them knew how to use it, but they were lucky. I think schools need to take greater responsibility for the kids they take on trips like this. Sometimes I wonder if they really understand how harsh the outdoors in Tasmania can be. There have been far too many incidents like this. Something needs to be done.

Do the schools have to book through PWS? If not I think they should. I know most tour companies operate with one senior guide for every 4 or 5 tourists. Maybe PWS should enforce this kind of rule with schools.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Personally I could care less if the kids stay home, fat and safe, teachers ego's intact...

Hahaha my evil side laughed at that.....

[whynotwalk]

Good post Brett - and a very troubling issue. I was at Windy Ridge over the long weekend and met (international) walkers coming into Bert Nichols Hut reporting the chaos at Pelion.

A few bits of info. I've gleaned:

1) the group appears to be from St Kevins College in Melbourne (not yet confirmed)
2) a letter of complaint is being written to the school by a Canadian couple we met
3) the issue is being reported to PWS

My understanding is that school groups when they actually comply are able to apply to PWS for a park fee exemption (as an educational group). When they do that they are advised of PWS's group size restriction, which varies from site to site. For the Overland Track that limit would be 12, but it's guessed that some schools apply for two exemptions, then combine groups once in the park. That's one way of flouting the regs., but the other is to turn up without even bothering to contact PWS.

I for one want to see lots of this generation getting out into the environment. But not like this! This practice is unsafe, environmentally damaging, and socially disruptive. I suspect there may be some red faces at a certain school fairly soon,

cheers

Peter

[Drifting]

Did you get a firm number on the number of adults/teachers?

Parks Tasmania and the DofE have strict guidelines about that sort of thing, and it sounds like they were just being ignored.

[whynotwalk]

Reported numbers range from "more than 30" to as high as 47. No confirmation yet, but either number would be totally unacceptable. I am following up with PWS staff,

cheers

Peter

[ILUVSWTAS]

Please keep us advised as to what you learn Peter!

[sthughes]

Yeah at Pelion I heard both that the total number in the hut on Friday night was 47 and from someone else that it was 47 in their group alone. Either way at best we are talking 30 or so which is way too many.
The Arm River Track was pretty chopped up and although we only joined the ART a short distance before meeting the last few kids heading the other way I picked up 3 bits of fresh rubbish, like Brett said I suspect one of their back markers were cleaning things up.
People in the hut didn't have too many kind words for them and I know the room we slept in was quite dirty (not necessarily them of course).
And yes I'm pretty sure it was St. Kevins (an all boys Catholic School where else but Toorak!). Just having a quick look at their website I'd say we met year 9 boys doing their "RICE program". Wow - nearly $13,000 a year for year 9's to go to St. Kevins!

From thier website:

3.Van Diemen’s Land Revealed
Cradle Mountain Lake & St Clair National Park & Mersey River
Length: 10 days
40 Boys
Program Operators:
SKC
Activities:
5n/6day World Acclaimed Overland Track bushwalk
Snow camping
White water rafting
Mountain bike riding
Abseiling & Caving

[corvus]

I was not going to comment on this however now that it has been raised , in 20 years of using it have never seen the ART chopped up so much not even in the pre board walked era, to give an indication of numbers they had three 18 seater buses parked at the Forestry Outdoor Arm River Center with many tents pitched and multiple kayaks and other water craft in trailers (this was not a cheap camping trip by any means )so you can see why walkers were somewhat peeved with their experience of an over-sized and so I am told an out of control group.
For the record the tail end Charlie for this group was a Tasmanian employed as a Guide who appeared to be an experienced walker who I am sure would have picked up most rubbish he found on the track.
I feel that an email to the Principal and Parks would be in order from those who experienced this unpleasant night however don't hold your breath for a rational reply.
corvus

[Ent]

Hi All

Thanks for the additional information. As mentioned I was reluctant to raise this mater, as appears was Corvus as well, as I strongly support out door activities for all, and especially the young. It appears that the planning was "clumsy" and the results showed this. I will send an email to the school directing them to this thread and hope that the school principal puts their side of the case, and what, if any, plans they will take to make future trips enjoyable for all. I have a friends that kids are regular participants in outdoor activities and never heard a bad word on this forum about their trips so it can be done well, just takes a bit of sensible planning.

Cheers Brett

[tastrax]

.... I will send an email to the school directing them to this thread and hope that the school principal puts their side of the case...

I sent an email via their website suggesting that they might like to check out this forum/thread and make some comment. PWS are also following up on this.

[Ent]

Hi Phil

Thanks for following up on this. Hopefully it might prompt a little more thought and planning so everyone out there get the best experience from our National Parks.

Cheers Brett

[north-north-west]

what is appropriate?

Hanging, drawing, quartering, boiling in oil . . .

[winterling]

Would be keen to see what the school has to say in reply.

[corvus]

I would be keen to know what they said to "parks" about their walk and what "parks" had to say to them regarding this blatant breach of rules.
corvus

[ILUVSWTAS]

Not having a go at parks in anyway whatsoever as they are dealing with massive staff cuts BUT. It seems if parks dont see something with their own eyes very little is ever done to follow anything up.

Did anything ever happen about the dogs in the Southern Ranges?? Not that we heard, and they had all the info in fron of them to persue the matter if they chose.

Who knows, maybe the school payed some kind of "parks pass package" that they couldnt say no to. Money talks you know.

[Nuts]

Yes... what did happen about those dogs???

I doubt the group had to be charged anything, to find that out though they must have gone through the system, did they not mention numbers???

Were they sneaky?

So many questions..... so Few staff, perhaps there is a staffing crisis... do we need Today Tonight?

[ILUVSWTAS]

No question theres a staff shortage. I think they just did away with 25 positions.

And as far as we know nothing was done about the dogs. Several witnesses, photographs, recorded log book entries PLENTY of leads to follow up..........
They were certainly not sneaky, they walked out the SCT with the dogs, hundreds of people a day would have seen them.

[Nuts]

Yer, I dont know, where there is politics involved I guess its designed that way...


Didn't they create 30 new 'ranger' positions recently? (a friend spent his weekend writing, working on an application )... Either way, I'd imagine its more a case of the politics and/or commitment rather than staff numbers with these things.

[ILUVSWTAS]

I think the new positions were upgrades from field officer to ranger positions. A field officer has very little power, IE they cant even book someone for not having a parks pass if busted by a FO. I guess this gives each area more rangers who are actually able to do things.

[Nuts]

I suspect you can guess, I was just trying to remember ever hearing of someone being booked by a ranger...for anything. There might have been that one time... no hold on, i heard the people refused to pay and were 'mainlanders'..

(I was under the impression that parks had a 'law enforcement' course? (ie, anyone, regardless, couldnt enforce rules without it). Things change though, haven't taken an interest in a few years..

[ILUVSWTAS]

Yeh it doesnt really happen does it.
I have heard of a few cases of people being asked to move on, but actually being booked? No I cant say i've come across it either.

[Nuts]

I spent a few years in the military, when I first was involved with parks I assumed that things would be run in a similar 'black and white' manner. (ie, rules, enforcement).
It is clear now that things cant be run that way, or not with the existing system. Personally, I wouldnt want to see them 'licenced to kill' either but perhaps there is no two ways?
Either an enforcement agency or back right off and just be the people who smile at the visitors, empty the bins, clean the dunnies and give out friendly (hopefully accurate)advice...

I doubt that there is an enforceable set 'rule' about group numbers (commercial operators aside)? Probably just relies on the organisers being Sensible

[tastrax]

Certainly some funds are being made available for the training and hopefully some dedicated enforcement staff

http://www.media.tas.gov.au/release.php?id=29803

$300,000 to train field staff in policing parks and reserves to combat wood hooking, unauthorised off-road vehicle use, land clearing and arson;

[ollster]

And as far as we know nothing was done about the dogs. Several witnesses, photographs, recorded log book entries PLENTY of leads to follow up..........
They were certainly not sneaky, they walked out the SCT with the dogs, hundreds of people a day would have seen them.

Correct, nothing was done. Plenty of evidence, some of it circumstantial like the entry in the log book and the car with dog toys, but pretty clear when seen in context of time/location.

I was so sure someone would give a *&%$#!, but apparently "the dogs issue" just dissapeared up the backside of P&WS and I reckon the staffing issue, lack of any real powers and lack of individual accountability typically seen in any government has everything to do with this. The officer we reported the issue to was very helpful, but after being escalated, the issue was dropped - I received no feedback.

P&WS - please deputise me, I so very much wanted to taze those pricks.

/rant.

[MJD]

This just reminds me why I like camping on top of mountains and walking off track.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Yup. Between random poo and 176 school kids camped at Pelion..... people wonder why I have no interest in doing the OT