Macpac Resolution ( EVent ) Jacket

[norts]

Time to give a report on my Event Jacket from Macpac. I am on my second jacket, first one was returned as it was wetting out on the sleeves. After testing Macpac agreed and said there was a problem with the material as the DWR hadnt taken to the material.
The second jacket has now done about 4 days of actually rain, three of those were on the Western Arthurs in pretty wild weather.
The good points:
Good design, Pockets are good and the hood works well and in really wild weather it can be closed down.
The event breathes fantastically, when clean.

The bad points:
Expensive
it has to be kept clean or it wets out.

Here are my issues.

After the WAs the coat was wetting out again on the sleeves. I again took it back to Macpac in Hobart. The sent it off for testing. I didn't wash the coat other than rinsing of mud and soot( went cross country coming down Morraine K) with a hose.
I didnt want to wash the coat and Macpac use the excuse that I had washed it incorrectly.

I have just got back the report from Macpac. The coat is ok but because of the mud and soot the DWR couldn't work correctly soI began to sweat and and also the DWR was degraded by the mud and soot. They are sending the coat back with a bottle of tech wash.

If this is going to be case everytime I wear this coat, ie it doesnt work if it gets dirty, then it isnt much use in Tasmania.
Might have to use it as my roundd town coat. What a waste of money.

I wouldnt recommend this coat for any serious bushwalking in Tasmania where any mud is involved .

I am not a Macpac basher, I own and am very happy with my Mircolight, my crossterrain pants, gaiters.

Roger

[blacksheep]

Roger, I didn't see this jacket- tell me more about the soot please?
Cam

[norts]

The jacket went to NZ, You might like to talk to Phil at Hobart store. Also not that happy with the amount of time it has taken to be given a report on it, dropped the jacket into store on 20th Mar. Admittedly Phil, was about to get married so wasnt going to be back for acouple of days but still it has taken 2/3 calls to find out what had happened with it.

The jacket started wetting out before the soot got on it. the soot was from pushing through burnt scrub. the bush had been burnt about 3 ? years ago.

Roger

The reason I sent the jacket back as it was the second one that had started wetting out. I have never heard about what happened to the first jacket , I was told it was being sent back to Event.

[blacksheep]

Hi Roger,
I had a talk with Richie at customer service who handled your jacket. He told me the sleeves from the elbow down to cuff were quite clearly blackened with ash and soot. The problem here is water clings to these small particles, and the render any DWR treatment ineffective. The fabric has to be clean for DWR to perform well, and really fine particles like in smoke and ash are the worst culprits for causing wet out (stand by a fire in smoke and you'll also have the same issues, it isn't always visible).

The DWR on the Resolution is a high standard- it is 80/20 standard, which means that 80% of the fabric surface will bead up in a shower after 20 wash cycles. But if a fabric is contaminated it must be washed to work effectively (this is not an eVent thing, this is for any face fabric on any laminate or coating on any brand of any garment). Occassionaly the use of a DWR restorer should be part of the care process.

Roger, the turn around could have been quicker for you, I agree, but the assesment is correct, and I think the supply of a tech wash is very good service from the team here. They checked the jacket out fully with the suter tester to ensure there was no other issues, so I'm sure after a wash you'll be happy with the performance once more.

Cam

[Ciaran]

I've had my eye on these and with this report I can't say I will be investing in one. Although I back alot of the Macpac gear I don't think I will be carrying a bottle of "tech wash" to treat the garment every time it gets dirty while on the walk.

Thanks for the report Norts.

[bushrunner]

Ciaran, did you actually read Cam's response? The problem reported by Norts would be experienced with any DWR treated waterproof/breathable garment. This is not a special feature of this particular jacket.
I want to head over to NZ and learn some ice/mountain climbing when I am no longer an impoverished student and this jacket is on my shortlist.

[ninjapuppet]

Hi Roger,

would you better blame eVent as the culprit rather than macpac?
My black diamond tent didnt stop water comming in during rain, but i believe its the Epic fabric I am unsatisfied with rather than black diamond as a brand.

I would wonder if other jacket fabrics would have a similar issue to your problem?

[Nuts]

The response makes sense, have found the same with goretex. I had one jacket that was used for a couple of seasons trackwork. It was always dirty, wet out but still waterproof (though probably only as breathable as plastic) It is not macpac Or event fabric, it is the fabric structure, treatment and maintenance. Have no experience with this particular jacket but many people do seem a bit confused with the various materials and what is likely to cause problems.

[norts]

Ok I agree with the problem with ash and soot, the problem I have with this, was the ash and soot was on the last day of the walk. My sleeves wetted out after the first day of rain, the soot was on the third day of rain. Yes the jacket got muddy and then it started wetting out. It is pretty hard not to get a rain jacket muddy in the Tassie bush.
I will wash the coat as per instruction and then stand under the shower and report back.
Maybe I should have stuck with my $300 oringi coat( another NZ product), you definitely dont need to handle that jacket with kid gloves, but it doesnt breathe very well either about as well as an event jacket after it gets muddy.

Cam thank you for your reply and I will keep using this jacket but having to wash it with a special wash after only 4 days of rain seems to be a bit extreme. I was very happy with the performance of the jacket when it was clean but how do you keep a rain jacket clean on a multiday walk? Will taking the jacket down to the nearest creek and giving it a good rinse make it work any better? Another question, just on the checking of the performance of the fabric, how can they tell if there is anything wrong with the material and the DWR if it hasnt been washed? The first (the one replaced)jackets sleeves would not hold a DWR. Was this checked on this jacket? I am a bit paranoid as I have now had two jackets that have wetted out in the same area one was blamed on faulty material and this one because i got it dirty.


Bushrunner if Macpac uses Event then it is their issue and they need to chase up any issues with the material ie. with the first jacket i was told that it was being sent back to Event.

I am not a Macpac basher as I said in my first post. Their customer service performance was excellent with the return and replacement of the first jacket.
Just not as happy with the second coat and the customer service.

Roger

[bushrunner]

Bushrunner if Macpac uses Event then it is their issue and they need to chase up any issues with the material ie. with the first jacket i was told that it was being sent back to Event.

Hi Roger. I totally agree. What I am saying is that the problem seems not to be with the design of the jacket itself or with the eVent fabric but with the DWR treatment. Having the DWR fail on a clean garment after only a couple of days is a bit rough. Obviously it will pretty much fail on anything which is dirty. Hopefully it will be all sorted for you after a reapplication of the DWR. Best of luck.

[Nuts]

Norts, Macpac and Event aside, I have found that the DWR coating can be fickle. Ive seen new Goretex coats washed with normal detergent and the DWR removed almost completely. Using Nikwax wash and then their TX spray appears to restore them to 'as new'. We now only use the Nikwax wash on all Gore coats (I have an event jacket but havent washed it as yet... No doubt the proper (non detergent) wash is required))
That said, I would imagine that your coat would also need an the DWR reapplied after washing (?), especially if it takes some 'work' to remove any dirt/soot... If the jacket is OK and the DWR was applied correctly (with the dirt layer now over it) I guess that just the wash should show whether there was a problem beforehand, if it removes all the soot...

[Slithers]

Surely if it is the DWR coating/treatment, then isn't it up to the manufacturer to fix this and not the customer?
Fair enough that the manufacturer didn't make the fabric and coat it but they are selling the entire product and ultimately are responsible for the entire jacket. They are not just selling the 'assembly' of the jacket but the entire jacket.

I know that this degrades over time/use but in this case the jacket in question was bran new.

[Ent]

Hi Norts

Thanks for your typical honest and unbiased review of gear. Frankly I am rather surprised by the poor performance you experienced given the amount of marketing hype with Event (not Epic which is another brand of material and personally a rather average material in my opinion). However, there has been very little "real" persons reports that I have seen on Event. My new Event mittens have turned up so it will be interesting to see how they go given that mittens are by nature a high wear item and subject to grime and dirt.

I love my Paddy Palllin Vista coat and have used it in very average conditions, skidded down mountains, bounced over rocks with it, bashed through bush, and it has performed with no problems. I do wash it using Tech Wash after every major use and tumble dry it it as well and it comes back like new. I use a Mellie washing machine and its special outerwear wash and dry cycle so that might be the key. It still has not been subject to enough duty cycles for me to unconditionally recommend it but all signs are positive that I will but at near $600 I would expect it to be so.

I have quite a collection of other "breathable" jackets but the Goretex is by far the the best with some being nothing more than plastic bag grade of breathability. I am a solid build so slogging up a hill tests out a jacket. I do notice though when wearing it freshly washed and dried the water beads very well and continues to do so unless I do a scrub bash and then the water does not bead as noticeably and forms a sheen but the jacket does not wet out. Also I noticed the much older jacket of the same make and type by Corvus does not bead as well as my much newer one but I do not believe that Corvus has experienced wetting out so I look forward to his comments on the DWR coating and the performance of his jacket.

I think blaming the DWR and holding its is an uncontrollable in variability is a cop-out given DWR is used extensively in garments. I played with applying a reapplication of it on a garment but not much joy but then again it was my first go and Nuts gave some advice that I have yet to implemented so maybe it was my inept attempt rather than an impossible task. Also I am not renown for reading instruction first time through so me think the problem be me.

As for your experience with the jacket this is yet another example of success having many fathers and failure having none so you wind up holding the baby.

I do hope that you have your problems corrected but as well known in many other threads you can guess my opinion of this happening with the particular brand name. Still I would rather be proven wrong

Cheers Brett

[Nuts]

Brett, ive done quite a few more since..I dont understand the science but have experienced how fickle the DWR can be.
Just to note that the Nikwax DWR seems to take better if the jacket is still quite damp (though with no excess/surface water) thenstraight in the dryer. No worries though, works well!

Norts Jacket- If it is the DWR outer coating then it really has nothing to do with event (as some others seem to grasp).
If a fault in the DWR application (or perhaps a fault/contamination of the jackets face fabric) then yer, obviously a macpac issue.
Be interesting to see the outcome.

I was discussing Nikwax with the distributer (yer, I am a 'dealer' for their products but dont 'sell' in a retail sense).
Interestingly (perhaps), the various ski hire businesses buy it (wash and DWR spray) by the 20L drum, some reapply the DWR several times in a season...

[corvus]

I wash my Goretex Coats in Lux Flakes and have treated them with McNett REVIVEX treatment to re proof with reasonable results (wetting out in the cuffs)willing to give the Nixwax system a go as I love their NIXWAX for my boots which works
corvus

[Ent]

I think Nuts you have hit the magical point that using a dryer to "set" or reinvigorate the DWR coating plus to apply it to a damp garment to get it to "stick". I did it on a bone dry one it ran straight off. As for the importance of the DWR my reading suggests it is needed to bead the water so the "steam" can escape as otherwise the "steam" can not get through the water layer that would otherwise form on the garment. However, this should only affect the breathability not the water resistance so assuming that the membrane has not been compromised by punctures (microscopic from our beloved alpine plant) the wetting should be sweat build up not water ingress. If water is getting in then the membrane is faulty or compromised, something that you would not reasonably expect from a new garment unless it was poorly made, harshly treated, or downright to flimsy for the intended job.

Corvus do you believe that the wetting through the sleeves with your older and much used jacket is due to water getting through or sweat building up and if you believe it is water getting through do you think it is due to small holes caused by pushing through our prickly alpine plant or just water getting through the membrane?

Cheers Brett

[blacksheep]

Brett, you are nothing but consistent.

[Son of a Beach]

I've certainly had the sleeves on my old Goretex jacket ruined by scoparia pricks. No damage could be seen (looked like brand new), but the fabric was no longer waterproof. When sent back to the Gore labs, they said that microscope inspection showed many tiny holes.

I'm now much more careful with scrub (particularly scoparia and prickley plants) when wearing my raincoat.

[Ent]

Brett, you are nothing but consistent.

Yes and unfortunately so it appears to be the same with the service from some companies when a customer has an issue. Products will fail and quality go south when you sell a large range and enough of anything that is why after market service is needed to protect the integrity of a brand. Heck, Lexus recalled an entire months production and gave new cars to the owners to establish the reputation of Lexus as a worthy competitor for BMW and Mercedes. But as recent history has shown they then covered up on a major safety issue so have lost a lost the hard fought claims to be a quality manufacture. Toyota must still be smarting at the joint hosts' quip at the last Academy awards. Still that is business, what they say is a happy customer might tell two people of their experience while an unhappy one tells the world. Just got to love the Internet

Cheers Brett

[blacksheep]

Brett, you are nothing but consistent.

Yes and unfortunately so it appears to be the same with the service from some companies when a customer has an issue. Products will fail and quality go south when you sell a large range and enough of anything that is why after market service is needed to protect the integrity of a brand. Heck, Lexus recalled an entire months production and gave new cars to the owners to establish the reputation of Lexus as a worthy competitor for BMW and Mercedes. But as recent history has shown they then covered up on a major safety issue so have lost a lost the hard fought claims to be a quality manufacture. Toyota must still be smarting at the joint hosts' quip at the last Academy awards. Still that is business, what they say is a happy customer might tell two people of their experience while an unhappy one tells the world. Just got to love the Internet

Cheers Brett

I don't always know what you are talking about...guess that makes two of us.
Oh, by the way, regarding your consistent comment "you can't make a range of products and make quality?" Are you referring to macpac? Because macpac have made packs/tents/sleeping bags/bivvy bags/thermals/fleece/rainwear for 30+ years, and have been on more expeditions to more wild places than any other Australasian outdoor company? Where have you been?
Macpac used to use gore-tex, we spend 18mths evaluating fabrics and decided that eventr was the best fabric for our customers. But is no miracle fabric- it will puncture in Tassie scoparia, if it is dirty the face fabric will wet out. But we have proven to ourselves (and several thousand customers so far ) that it is the best fabric for active outdoors people. And Macpac still try to solve any issues that arise with any of our products.

(By the way, do you also think Black diamond are rubbish? By your rather limiting view, I guess they must be...While most others would suggest they are a very high quality brand of climbing hardware ( camalots/nuts/ixe aces/'biners), climbing harnesses, packs, skiis, headtorches, gloves, bindings,helmets, footwear, alpine shelters, walking poles ....etc , by your rule, the very fact they make more than one product line means they therefore cannot be of quality. What utter tripe. I'd trust any of their products in any of these categories with my life any day. I have seen their quality and testing standards ( as some of my products are made in the same factory) and it is a question of process. Perhaps I could argue that you should not trust gear from most smaller brands, as I know the detail in specification and manufacturing standards are not as high- who of your shiney examples has achieved ISO 9000/9001 quality standards in their manufacturing processes? )

[Ent]

Wow Cam nice to see things have not changed between us As for Black Diamond as a brand you must have missed the memo on walking poles and my unhappy experiences with two other brands and my growing confidence to move BD's Contour Poles from promising to recommended status Might suggest you use another company's product range as your example of my prejudices as I am very happy with Black Diamond. Epic fabric not so happy with its claimed breathability but that was with another brand's product. Want to play lets guess that brand's name game?

Cam I call products and companies as I experience them. I have no commercial interest in gear companies so if it works for me it gets the thumbs up such with manufacturers as Hilleberg, Western Mountaineering, etc. If it fails then my view is dependent on their after sales service. Paddy Pallin, Sea to Summit, One Planet, Mountain Design (more recently but a few years back could have been called Mountain Disasters but have improved but not yet back up to their pre 1990's level), etc have been great to deal with when things do not work as they should and I am happy to buy and recommended their products. Companies such as Vaude, Komperdell, etc, get brickbats as their products have been faulty or failed with their customer service team last seen heading for the horizon with their pants on fire. I have experienced nothing but excellent performance from Kovea stuff but have been told by others that if you have a problem then you are on your own. So a product can be great but after sales service poor which means for the majority of people happy experiences but total frustration for the few unlucky ones.

Cam instead of continuing our record length novel on the human condition I suggest you directly contact Norts and make him a happy man, either by refunding him his money or getting him a jacket that works for him. Do that and anything else I write will be made redundant on this issue, and as you infer that can only be a good thing

Cheers Brett

[Taurë-rana]

I haven't had any trouble with my Goretex (Wilderness Wear) jacket wetting out yet.Before the last trip I washed it then re DWRed it with Revivex and dried it in the dryer and it kept me pretty dry for nearly a week of wet days, although it wasn't pouring all the time. It now needs washing again, so i presume re DWRing, but one of the seam seals has started to come away from the dryer heat so I'm concerned about doing it again. Has anyone else had this trouble, or have a solution?

[Nuts]

I haven't had any trouble with my Goretex (Wilderness Wear) jacket wetting out yet.Before the last trip I washed it then re DWRed it with Revivex and dried it in the dryer and it kept me pretty dry for nearly a week of wet days, although it wasn't pouring all the time. It now needs washing again, so i presume re DWRing, but one of the seam seals has started to come away from the dryer heat so I'm concerned about doing it again. Has anyone else had this trouble, or have a solution?

You shouldnt need to reapply the DWR that often so long as you use the correct (non detergent) wash each time. You should be able to wash it several times before needing to re-proof. The tape can just be stuck back down with a flexible clear glue.

[Taurë-rana]

Thanks Nuts.

[bushrunner]

The tape can just be stuck back down with a flexible clear glue.

Wouldn't some types of glue damage/melt the fabric and the tape? Is there a particular type of glue that is recommended for this?

Do that and anything else I write will be made redundant on this issue, and as you infer that can only be a good thing

Given that you have said it all before, many many times, it already is redundant. It has been redundant for a while now. When I read this thread I knew that it would not be long before it was contaminated by yet another Brett rant. Perhaps you could save yourself some time and write a single webpage and then just link to it from each thread?

[etrangere]

The tape can just be stuck back down with a flexible clear glue.

Wouldn't some types of glue damage/melt the fabric and the tape? Is there a particular type of glue that is recommended for this?

Do that and anything else I write will be made redundant on this issue, and as you infer that can only be a good thing

Given that you have said it all before, many many times, it already is redundant. It has been redundant for a while now. When I read this thread I knew that it would not be long before it was contaminated by yet another Brett rant. Perhaps you could save yourself some time and write a single webpage and then just link to it from each thread?

It takes "two to tango" as they say.

My very first post on this site re backpack choice ended up with the same result. Lets show some respect to the person who starts the post by keeping to the topic and offering constructive feedback/advice only. Posts seem to end up going off on tangents and the advice they were seekings seems to be completely overlooked.

[Nuts]

http://www.wildequipment.com.au/more_st ... article=76 This page may help. (they say that the tape cant be applied with an iron, not sure on that....(?))

I imagine some glues could damage the fabric. I imagine that goretex own adhesive would be ideal (if you could source it) but I have just used some left over goo on a bud and only very little along the edges.

If lifted over a large area perhaps try goretex tape?
( http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Gore-Tex-Seam-Ta ... 1529wt_941 )

[Ent]

Hi Bushrunner

I notice yet again your vigours defence of a particular brand even before I posted in your comments to Ciaran questioning if the poster had read something so understand your comments in light of your obvious passion for that brand and quickness to critique other posters views that do not match with your own.

The simple fact is the conditions described are typical of Tasmanian conditions and other jackets have stoodup well in similar conditions. The questions are as I understand them.

1. Is the problem with that particular jacket or all jackets of that type or even material used? It is possible as I mentioned that if you make or sell enough of anything bad items will happen along. I for one have acquired my first Event product (appart from the brilliant Sea to Summit compression bags I use for my sleeping bags) so will be reporting the good, the bad and the ugly when I get to use it in the field.

2. Another question is the after market service acceptable given the high cost of the product involved.

3. What usage and washing care is required.

These questions apply to any product and brand and any attempt to stiffle such questions is unfortunate by what ever means. Each reader will form their own opinion what is and has been written in light of what has been written in the past. I have a collection of jackets and as mentioned the best to-date is the Paddy Pallin Gore-tex one though I am looking forward to using a Montane one as it is consideriblely lighter to carry but as mentioned have not actually used it (carried it quite a few times) as it has typical new rain gears capacity of ensuring fine weather

As for care I was long told to to either never or rarely wash a Gore-tex product but when reading the instructions have found that the manufacturers advice to be the opposite. I reguallarly wash and tumble dry mine and find this has to-date worked a treat but am aware some are horrified by this treatement of a very expensive item. Also sounds like this can cause problems with some jackets so maybe that advice has an element of truth behind it. A leading manufacturer of sleeping bags becries the fact that many returns are due to people not washing down sleeping bags despite clear instructions to do this, admittily with great care. It appears it can never be said to often enough that correct washing of down and Gore-tex is necessary to ensure optimum performance but let use be realistic a jacket should still work well on day five into a seven day trip, if it does not then people need to know this.

Bushrunner, I sadden that my comments upset you so greatly understand that you wish them not to be made about a brand that you are passionate about but as you will notice I am steadfast in my belief that good quality gear and service needs to be recognised while the reverse applies to the opposite. Maybe you might considering answering the above questions or maybe posing and answering alternative ones in this case.

Cheers Brett

[bushrunner]

http://www.wildequipment.com.au/more_stuff.php?article=76 This page may help. (they say that the tape cant be applied with an iron, not sure on that....(?))

I imagine some glues could damage the fabric. I imagine that goretex own adhesive would be ideal (if you could source it) but I have just used some left over goo on a bud and only very little along the edges.

If lifted over a large area perhaps try goretex tape?
( http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Gore-Tex-Seam-Ta ... 1529wt_941 )

This all seems to be a pretty good argument for, ceteris paribus, buying a 3 layer garment rather than a 2 layer garment. With my current jacket (2 layer) I would not be able to access any of the seam tape in order to repair it without cutting through the inner mesh layer.

Brett. I am not necessarily passionate about Macpac. Indeed while several Macpac products are on my list of desired gear I do not in fact own a single item made by Macpac. I am doing some post-grad study at the moment and so I simply can't afford it as I have no income. So, my comments if read as a defense of anything should be read as a defense of reason. In other words, I was satisfied with the reasoning behind Macpac's response. Of course I am not the owner of the item in question and so my opinion matters not at all. Moreover, your comments do not upset me. You commented upon the potential for the redundancy of your comments. I pointed out that those comments were already redundant because you had essentially already made them elsewhere. Any reader of this forum was aware of what you were going to say on this topic before you said it.

On the subject of washing of shell garments, it is also my understanding that they ought to be washed fairly often, with a non-detergent soap then tumble dried and possibly even ironed on a cool setting. I have read two reasons for this. One is that it cleans the face fabric and enables the DWR to work. The other is that it the heat supposedly rebonds the layers and prevents them from separating. Not too sure about the second but it doubt it would hurt.

[north-north-west]

I have a Goretex jacket (cheap, Snowgum) that must be about 8 years old now. I think it's been washed four times in that period., No drier, no ironing, no re-proofing, no special cleaner.
It's a bit worn from all the scrub bashing but, apart from the front pockets, has never let me down. Rain, wind, snow, it still works just fine.
Far better design than the *you-know-which-brand* jacket I bought on sale a couple of years back, which has one or two major design flaws and has leaked into the top pocket from day one.