Bushfire season 2019-2020

[sambar358]

Potato......what has happened in more recent years is that land managers in Vic & NSW have closed many 4WD tracks due to lack of maintenance and either gated them or allowed the bush to reclaim them to various degrees. These tracks (when they were maintained) also provided a good network of access for fire fighting vehicles which often enabled quick access to the source of a fire reducing the chance of it spreading and getting out of control. Now because of this in many areas dozers need to create temporary access trails for fire fighting off, back-burning from and as hastily-built breaks. What should be done as part of the state-wide fire management strategy is to maintain track networks in the mountains so that fire fighters can get into a fire quickly rather than the current situation where they let it burn (and increase significantly in size) before it "comes out" into an area where they can get at it.

Dozers and their skilled operators are a very important fire fighting tool.......don't "shudder when you see one on a float heading to fight a bush fire".....but rather shudder and the thought of many 1000's of ha of trees being torched and countless animals, birds and reptiles in the path of the fire being incinerated once again. The fact that a D10 has put a 10m wide line up a spur and pushed a few trees over in an effort to put a break in so that fire fighters can attempt to halt the fire at that point is insignificant when the total devastation being caused by the fire is massive by comparison. Being forced by lack of access tracks for fire fighting is "pointless destruction in a continuous forested landscape" as far more bush will burn as a result of poor access for fire fighters. Dozed fire breaks grow back quickly.......10's of 1000's of incinerated forests take a whole lot longer. Cheers

s358

[michael_p]

If you are interested in satellite imagery of the fires go here: https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/sentinel- ... ates=false

[Warin]

I agree with S358. The dozers put in a starting place for a back burn.

The sooner the fire gets fought the better.. and that probably means helicopter access and well trained crews. That costs money. However an estimate of cost is the smoke disruption in Sydney is $50 million per day, so in real terms fighting the fires early may cost but it is cheaper than waiting for them to burn out of remote areas to get conventional access.

[jrg]

Seeing all the destruction at Bilpin, etc. yesterday is pretty devastating. Thankful for all the firies doing such a great job.

This is the time of year I'd love to go for a couple of bushwalks during the annual work shutdown - but the ongoing fires have closed most parks within any decent distance of Sydney, and the ongoing smoke day after day makes it very difficult to do any bushwalking at all in the remaining ones (let alone get any outdoor exercise!) - so no day walks unless you take a very very long drive.

[goanna]

Warin and sambar358. You should reflect on the ineffectiveness of large firetrails before advocating a network of small ones. Take the recent examples of the Kings Highway, Princes Highway and Braidwood Road. If the fire fighters couldn't use these to stop the fire what use is some random, meandering bulldozer trail?

[Neo]

Considering hundreds, then tens of thousands of hectares... a human sized trail or highway is insignificant as to how a fire moves with the prevailing conditions.

Yes, having access can help to get in and do the little we small creatures can.

[GPSGuided]

Those Wollemi pines!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... 9O8xgYffVw

'When the blaze was 1km away, the chopper was called away to protect homes and the pines were left unprotected.'

Pretty much summed up our human value system towards the most precious of our natural world.

[wildwanderer]

Does anyone know if reseeding our burnt bush with different types of plants is possible? Or would the re-sprouting/seed release of burnt trees monopolise the regrowth?

I’m not an expert in plant life but like most of us I spend a fair bit of time camping in the bush and realise just how well eucalypts burn. (Im assuming due to the oil)

I wonder if reseeding with different plant types that are less prone to burn or don’t burn as well would be an effective part of a mitigation strategy against future fires?

Though.. changing plant types and the overall impact on the eco system would be a big challenge.

[Neo]

My understanding of gum trees is they have a cell type called sclerols
(spelling...)
These are tough cells, part of why the sticks bark and leaf litter build up on the ground. When a fire comes through it burns these and burns off the undergrowth.
Gums also have cells under the bark called epicorms, which are able to sprout twigs and leaves along the trunk and branches after a fire, enabling the tree to survive to grow back its crown foliage.

Combined, this makes the gum trees a dominant species.

Some other plants have adapted to cope with fires although they often need several years between burns to reach maturity so as to reproduce which is why repeated burns can be bad for diversity.

Then there are also many Aussie plants that have not got fire resistance.

Also the argument that grazing in national parks would reduce fires is bulldust, as stock eat grass and the fuel load is not grass.

[sambar358]

I will depend on the intensity of the fire as to how the bush regenerates, in a hot burn lots of trees are killed & you only have to look into some of the bigger catchments that have had a hot fire thru them from a high point such as Mt. Hotham to see the 1000's of stark white trees sticking up among the trees that survived. Over the years the bark falls off all these dead trees and most of the trees themselves eventually come down and this forms the ground fuel for the next burn. Many of our gum species are quite fire tolerant and will shoot from the trunk quite quickly after a fire has gone thru.......snow gums and alpine tree species seem less resilient and kill rates on trees in the higher country is significant when a big hot burn goes through.

Much of our fire fighting these days seems to center around "asset protection".......trying to prevent wild fires impacting of private houses, land and infrastructure and that's fair enough given the size and intensity of the bush fires that are currently raging in SA, Vic, NSW and Qld. Due to the remoteness of a lot of these fires it's pretty-well impossible to attack them effectively in steep, heavily bushed and largely untracked country. It's often a waiting game.....preparing fire breaks and removing fuel loads ahead of the fire by back-burning and waiting for it to "come out". Many of these fires will not be extinguished via the efforts of fire fighters but their efforts will save many homes, properties and important infrastructure. The only thing that will extinguish them is plenty of heavy rainfall.......probably at least 200mm over a short time and that's unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. Most of these fires will be going for months and all we'll need to make the situation worse is another dry lightning front which will certainly get more fires going.

I think we're going to be in for a very long and destructive fire season this year.......what we are experiencing at the moment could-well only be a sign of things to come I'm afraid. Cheers

S358

[Warin]

Warin and sambar358. You should reflect on the ineffectiveness of large firetrails before advocating a network of small ones.

What would you propose?

[Moondog55]

Warin and sambar358. You should reflect on the ineffectiveness of large firetrails before advocating a network of small ones. Take the recent examples of the Kings Highway, Princes Highway and Braidwood Road. If the fire fighters couldn't use these to stop the fire what use is some random, meandering bulldozer trail?

None of those barriers were wide enough to stop a large fire ; especially with spotting ahead of the fire front.
A dual carriageway 8 lane highway with a large median might be wide enough
So you need to define and quantify what you personally mean when you say a "wide" firebreak, for me it is a break of 1500 metre minimum and even those need to be heavily protected from spotting ahead of the flame front. Fire tracks are for firetruck access and not meant to be firebreaks at all, they have to be of a certain size because firetrucks are big and unweildy vehicles

[north-north-west]

So you need to define and quantify what you personally mean when you say a "wide" firebreak, for me it is a break of 1500 metre minimum and even those need to be heavily protected from spotting ahead of the flame front.

The fires we've been getting recently have been spotting as much as 20km ahead of the front. There isn't a break that can deal with that other than total elimination of all vegetation.

[tastrax]

Here are the standards for FIRE trails in NSW

https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/__data/asset ... edsize.pdf

[Warin]

Here are the standards for FIRE trails in NSW

Having standards is one thing. Having funds to implement them is another.

[Neo]

Does anyone know how other dominant flora types besides gums respond to fire?

Im curious about wet areas where paperbarks are the dominant tree.
How about hanging swamps such as the Blue Mountains? What I've seen are clumping strappy leafed plants there, which are likely to bounce back from a quick burn, unless the ground layers were burnt and smouldered.

Then there is heath, both coastal and up high. That type of shrubbery possibly has a fire response, being so flamable...

[Moondog55]

So you need to define and quantify what you personally mean when you say a "wide" firebreak, for me it is a break of 1500 metre minimum and even those need to be heavily protected from spotting ahead of the flame front.

The fires we've been getting recently have been spotting as much as 20km ahead of the front. There isn't a break that can deal with that other than total elimination of all vegetation.

True but we can deal with spotting, that really is what helicopter and fixed wing tankers are for, using them to fight an established fire is IMO dumb

[Moondog55]

Here are the standards for FIRE trails in NSW

Having standards is one thing. Having funds to implement them is another.

As previously stated by others "30 years of neglect and mismanagement, under funding is probably the worst of the mismanagement
But we don't like paying our taxes

[tastrax]

Here are the standards for FIRE trails in NSW

Having standards is one thing. Having funds to implement them is another.

I agree Warin - part of any future 'change management' discussion in relation to fires and how we will manage them will need to take in funding, along with many other aspects. In the end we all pay for these things via our taxes, its just that some folks dont want to talk about increasing taxes to get increased services.

[Moondog55]

We could do all of it and more for less than the cost of one of those damned new submarines we don't really need or a couple of the already obsolete new warplanes

[wildwanderer]

I do wish defense funding would cease being used as a punching bag.

Fact is we do need those submarines and planes. Defense force capability helps mitigate a range of soft and hard power threats. The world has never been more dangerous or uncertain. Climate change will make it worse.

Just like we need more fire fighting funding including giving help to volunteers to pay for expenses/wage assistance during exceptional fire seasons.

And we need to act on climate change and regard it as the biggest threat to our national security.

However what I suspect will happen is more stop gap measures, more finger pointing, more polarisation and then in 10 years time people will be wondering why Australia isn't the desirable place to live it used to be.

This season was the first big wake up call that all is not well.. but will we come together and do anything.. I doubt it.

The problem with the world today is that people don't want to just solve a problem. They want a solution that serves their interests. There is not enough willingness to sacrifice for the national and global good. And that's why we are in trouble.

[Warin]

This season was the first big wake up call that all is not well.. but will we come together and do anything.. I doubt it.

Had a forewarning in 2009.

The problem with the world is that people don't want to just solve a problem. They want a solution that serves their interests. There is not enough willingness to sacrifice for the national and global good. And that's why we are in trouble.

If 'we' do nothing with this one.. the next one will be worse, and the one after that again worse...

[Moondog55]

We need a defence force but what our defence force doesn't need are obsolete warplanes and warships bought on the back of heavy lobbying by vested interests and back hand deals.
Not much point in having submarines when they can't fund maintenance or weapons systems practice and any/all future upgrades.
Not that we really have much to defend having sold of most of the country dirt cheap already to anybody willing to wave dollars under politicians noses. I can't see enough young people volunteering for the Silent Service to man the damned thing either

[wildwanderer]

If 'we' do nothing with this one.. the next one will be worse, and the one after that again worse...

100% agree. However I doubt that knowledge will make a difference. There is to many ways these days (social media manipulation/mass media polarisation) to knock a person down who has a sensible solution but one that requires all parties to sacrifice.

Much easier to pander to a support base and knock down an opponent with one liners and half truths.

[Hughmac]

Does anyone know how other dominant flora types besides gums respond to fire?

Im curious about wet areas where paperbarks are the dominant tree.
How about hanging swamps such as the Blue Mountains? What I've seen are clumping strappy leafed plants there, which are likely to bounce back from a quick burn, unless the ground layers were burnt and smouldered.

Then there is heath, both coastal and up high. That type of shrubbery possibly has a fire response, being so flamable...

Hi Neo. Melaleuca forest, heaths and hanging swamps are fire tolerant communities. They should recover completely if the drought ever breaks. The pockets of temperate rainforest are at the greatest risk. Another frightening aspect of these fires is their intensity and extent. Many species of fauna could potentially become functionally extinct over broad areas of former habitat, which could result in further losses over time as their role within the affected environment remains unfulfilled. I suspect that just like the Great Barrier Reef, this is the beginning of a steady decline for many of these environments.

[Hughmac]

So you need to define and quantify what you personally mean when you say a "wide" firebreak, for me it is a break of 1500 metre minimum and even those need to be heavily protected from spotting ahead of the flame front.

The fires we've been getting recently have been spotting as much as 20km ahead of the front. There isn't a break that can deal with that other than total elimination of all vegetation.

Firebreaks are a complete furphy in Australian forest fires. Fire trails are only there to give firies access for prescribed burns. My knowledge of the execution of prescribed burns is limited to the Southern Highlands of NSW, but it does my head in. They always seem to be conducted miles from the nearest habitation, meaning that forests adjacent to the local villages are unaffected. There have, for example, been extensive burns 20 km west of Hilltop over the last 5 years that would do absolutely nothing to protect the village from the current fires. Complete waste of time and money.

[sambar358]

Fire breaks are just one strategy in the fire fighters bag of tactics and certainly a 10m wide break won't stop a raging wildfire with a 50 kmph northerly behind it....nothing will ! But they do allow fire fighters to back burn off them ahead of the approaching fire front to reduce fuel loads and potentially slow the fire down once it hits the break....yep they push a few trees and shrubs over with the dozers but when that's compared to the 1000's of ha razed by the fire it's insignificant damage really.

Right now......where I am in Bairnsdale East Gippsland we have an emergency evacuation warning out for the residents of the fringe country north of here......we have had a wild fire burning in the Nicholson river catchment for a month and despite the efforts of 650+ fire fighters it' coming out and will impact on some communities north of Bairnsdale, Ensay, Tambo Crossing & Swifts Creek in the next 24-48 hours. Add this to the Snowy River NP fire which started at the same time and is about to impact on communities north of Orbost and has the potential to burn to the coast and it means much of the East Gippsland forests are burning at the moment. We have lots of fire trucks gathering in Bairnsdale and Bruther preparing for what is to come. Police and Emergency Services have advised all visitors to the area to leave....NOW.....many won't of course however. These fires will go on for months of we don't get very significant rainfall (200+ mm) to extinguish them.....and of course this is just the start of a long hot summer.....there will be a lot more to come yet !

So this is the reality of it......yep get a bit concerned about the fire fighting equipment pushing a few trees over and making a bit of a mess if you like.......but when you can't see across the road for the smoke, have ash and burnt leaves raining down on you 30 k's from the fire at at night can see the it raging in the hills not far away then that all pales into insignificance really. Welcome to the reality of the results of a prolonged severe drought......add dry lightning strikes to 1000's of ha's of tinder dry bush and this is what happens. No amount of fuel reduction burning will stop this sort of thing occurring really.....bush fires are just part of our summer but at the moment down here they are a little too close for comfort at the moment ! Cheers

s358

[rcaffin]

But they do allow fire fighters to back burn off them ahead of the approaching fire front to reduce fuel loads and potentially slow the fire down once it hits the break
Ho Ho Ho.
Sigh.
If your Bairnsdale fire was not stopped by 650+ firefighters, then you should think again about the value of trivial little backburns along a fire trail. Our last big fire (which missed our farm by 100 m) leapt straight across 1km of estuary to rain down spot fires on the far bank.
The whole idea that you can 'control' a wildfire in summer weather is an urban myth.

Cheers
Roger

[sambar358]

Yeah right Roger......you're just another armchair critic without any alternative solutions. As I said in my previous post "nothing will stop a wildfire going hard with a strong wind behind it." But don't criticise the fire fighters for having a go......... maybe we should just ban droughts and dry lightning 'eh ?

This fire started in remote mountain country 50km from where it is now......hard to get at for fire fighters with little or no track access and any tracks that were still there over-grown and neglected by government agencies. No rain for a month and several very hot and windy days caused the fire to spread to all points of the compass, and one particular warm & windy night it did a run of over 28k's to jump the Great Alpine Road and link-up with the Ensay fire east of the Tambo river. This fire is far from "under control" but fire fighters have done a great job so far keeping it from impacting of private land and homes......so to a degree they have managed to prevent asset damage so far but once it gets into a more populous areas I suspect that may change.

Too many people seem happy to sit back and criticize from a-far the efforts of fire fighters these days........in instances such as these fires I'm sure all involved are doing the best that they can given the magnitude of it all......but in the end only good rain will stop all this and I don't expect we'll get that any time soon. Cheers

s358

[Neo]

I disagree that anyone is having a go at the fireys and see most here are in agreement that a big fire cant really be stopped.

A possible solution for the future is a more widespread controlled slow burn regime. Unfortunately the humans will take too long to get their poop together during the very short seasonal window. Not at all helped by fossils in governments that are pro big business whilst anti science, environment, education etc!..