Pack hauling techniques?

[beardless]

In January I walked the Mt Anne circuit in Tasmania

I brought along some rope for pack hauling at the Notch.It was fairly thin but strong rope from the local Scout shop.

When we got to the Notch I climbed part way up with my pack and then left it on the ledge, scrabbled to the top then pulled it up. We had loaded packs so even with gloves (which I am glad I had) it was hard.

I then threw the rope down to my brother for him to attach the rope to his pack. I tried pulling it up but struggled, then stupidly wrapped the rope around my arm (which was downright dangerous as momentum of a falling pack could have pulled me over the edge).

My much more scientific brother told me to use the friction of the rope against the rock to stop the pack falling back down. Eventually I pulled it up using this method one ledge at a time.

Before this experience I thought that pack hauling was just a simple task of just attaching a rope to a pack and then lowering or pulling the pack up. It proved not to be so simple.

If anybody has some wisdom or resources to share about pack hauling technique I would be grateful for next time.

[wildwanderer]

Some suggestions

If the packhaul is not that far and has few entangling spots you can use webbing. Much easier to haul.

Alternatively a carabiner with a small bit of sling attached to a tree etc at the top. Pull the rope through so your pulling down or sidewards to haul. Find the best rope position/angle for friction you need. Could also use a body belay technique if the rope is still slipping through your hands.

[ILUVSWTAS]

How heavy was your pack??

[Lophophaps]

There's a number of ways to haul a pack, and each haul must be individually assessed and considered with the number and type of hauls on the trip. Let the gear take the strain, not the people. One way of doing this is to have a krab fixed to an anchor, often a tree. The haul rope goes through this krab. The rope to the pack has a Bachmann knot, like in the picture but with the cord going up. The other half of the rope has another Bachmann knot, with a big loop. The two knots are connected so that as the loop is pushed down with the foot the other half of the rope goes up, and is then locked by the Bachmann on this rope, allowing the hauler to rest between hauls. If there's a second person on top this person can pull the Bachmann on the pack rope up, making it easier for the foot pushing person. If the pack is heavy then a pulley can be rigged with krabs. If there's a lot of hauls then a real pulley can be considered for the top.

Bachmann.jpeg (8.44 KiB) Viewed 25514 times

[Mark F]

For what it is worth, for pack hauling you may find 20 - 25mm tape lighter and easier to grip than many cords of a diameter that won't slice into your hands.

[Lophophaps]

Even 11 mm climbing rope is very hard to grip with the hands, which is why I suggest Bachmann knots and krabs. I've not grabbed tape for supporting my body weight until a few minutes ago. It's possible, but still hard. Bachmann gets my vote as the system takes the strain. If there's a lot of ascents and descents that involve a rope then an ascender should be carried by each party member.

My heavy haul rope is 7 mm diameter and 20 metres long, strong enough for belaying people. This rope is rated at about 2-3000 kilograms. The light haul rope is about 4 mm diameter, weighs about 100 grams, takes about 300 kilograms. One significant consideration is how rope and cord lasts under stress when in proximity to a sharp edge. The 7 mm rope will be fine, bu the 4 mm cord could be cut quite easily. Kernmantle is best.

[beardless]

How heavy was your pack??

.

It was 20 something kilos. We had food for potential side trips.

The notch was the only time we pack hauled.

The rope was 4-5mm diameter. It was hard to grip.

I will consider all the other suggestions.

Maybe I need to do more weights for my arms.

[Neo]

Look up the 3 to 1 haul. Something like:

https://m.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Crevas ... sse-rescue

You have an anchor point with a caribiner, back to a prusik attached to the main line and another caribiner.
The prusik holds between pulls so you don't lose rope.
Pull, hold the strain and shuffle the prusik.
Can add pulleys at the carbs.

As shown in the link, the additional caribiner and clove hitch knot at the top/anchor are as a backup for a live/human load to take out any slack/fall shock. EDIT if you were to let go of the rope!

8mm rope from a climbing shop is a good standard, strong enough to abseil on if you had to and pretty good to hold, especially with knots added in a handline situation.

[crollsurf]

Don't want to hijack this thread but are there resources or places you can go to learn these type of skills without getting full-on into rock climbing?

Pack hauling, using tape etc.

[Neo]

VRT or vertical rescue training.
I did it this year as part of a guide canyoning course.

Can just have a go from videos and practice draging a bag along the ground etc. There are a few basic techniques, most involve using a prusik sling, French or Klemheist style I think!

[Lophophaps]

It's impossible hold 4-5 mm rope with the hands, and even prussiks or a camming device will struggle to grip it.

Neo's link is a better way than mine but needs more gear. For a dead weight of about 20 kilograms a pulley system aka crevasse or cliff rescue is probably not needed. VRT is good. However, once the basics are known then it should be possible to practise on short vertical walls. One key point is that sharp edges at the top will degrade the rope, and such edges should be padded. Rescue crews may have one of these shown below, keeping the rope and casualty away from the face.

While outside the scope of the OP, in crevasse rescues the edge must be padded, usually with ice axes and/or packs, to prevent the rope biting into the snow.

[wildwanderer]

Don't want to hijack this thread but are there resources or places you can go to learn these type of skills without getting full-on into rock climbing?

Pack hauling, using tape etc.

Lots of resources online on how to tie a prussik. Its a simple movable stopper knot. You dont need to sign up for a VRT or rock climbing course.

Id suggust the klemheist which is form of prussik. As it only works in one direction and is easier to bump along the rope as you pull in the mainline. http://www.vdiffclimbing.com/prusik-types/

However as Lophophaps said with thin rope it can be hard to get the prussik to grip. Ideally you want a mainline diameter that is 50% larger than the diametre of the prussik rope.

[Moondog55]

Having hauled packs a couple of times I have to say you should not try and use your arms to do so, you should use the strong muscles in your legs and glutes. Squat and rise, take in the slack, squat and rise but really a double pulley system to reduce the effort is well worth taking if you know you will be pack hauling. When wearing heavy leather gloves I can grip and haul thin cord for a short time only which is why my own safety rope is 6mm, over-kill strength wise but needed really for usability. I do always keep a couple of krabs with me tho, one lives on my shoulder harness and the other is attached to the safety rope. Long time since my kids walked with me but I still keep the rope in my grab bag

[Orion]

My heavy haul rope is 7 mm diameter and 20 metres long, strong enough for belaying people. This rope is rated at about 2-3000 kilograms.

What rope is that? I've never seen a 7mm (nylon) rope rated that high.

[Orion]

The best mechanical position for hauling is to be below what you're hauling. That is, pulling down on the rope which is redirected through a pulley or carabiner that is anchored above. If the pack isn't too heavy you can use a foot in a loop of rope or webbing to push. If it's heavier you can use your body weight by attaching yourself to the rope with a prusik (or equivalent), tying in with an adjustable knot (or rapping the rope around your waist). In either case you need a ratchet of some sort, a prusik or something equivalent like a Tibloc device. And you need to be sure you're either safe or anchored.

Another option is to belay someone with a taut rope while they climb wearing the pack. This can be a better solution when the features of the rock mean the pack will get stuck in places. A third option is to do carries of the pack contents.

You can get ideas by reading a bit of theory on crevasse rescue but you have to go and practice it somewhere. You can do it on level ground. It's when practicing that you discover the little things that don't seem obvious in the diagrams. For example, a 3:1 haul can be horribly inefficient and difficult to manage if not set up well.


Disclaimer: I've never had to pack haul on a bushwalk, only on rock faces.

[Moondog55]

Likely the same as mine Dyneema/Spectra cored yachting rope, 6mm about 1700 kilos, not quite as strong as the braided but much easier to use
Much lighter than climbing rope but no impact absorbing stretch so a static load only.

[Lophophaps]

My heavy haul rope is 7 mm diameter and 20 metres long, strong enough for belaying people. This rope is rated at about 2-3000 kilograms.

What rope is that? I've never seen a 7mm (nylon) rope rated that high.

Mea culpa. I looked at a number of websites and got an average. Problem is some were in pounds weight, like this one
https://www.rocknrescue.com/product/new ... 100-yards/
The figure is closer to 900 kilograms. This website
https://www.climbers-shop.com/242184/pr ... metre.aspx
says 4 mm breaks at 330 kilograms and 7 mm at 1050 kilograms. While a 4 mm cord will take a human, the safety factor is far too small for my liking, and it's too easy to cut. A 7 mm cord is good for most places. If a rope was taken to somewhere like Federation I'd have 9-10 mm, much safer.

[Gadgetgeek]

As far as pulley systems go, friction can certainly eat your lunch and defeat even 5:1 systems easily if you are in a bad pulling position. My first instinct would be a longer thin rope and do a simple 2:1 system with the anchor and the force both at the top. But you are still in a somewhat poor position if you cannot re-direct. And every re-direct is added friction.
a prussic as a safety can work, you want to have your prussic around 1/3rd the diameter of your haul line, but there is some flexibility with that. Very few lines will turn tight enough to also work as a prussic on themselves. I've got a cool little thing from CT called a rollnlock. that will grab decently thin stuff, but as with anything, testing is key.
A thicker rope is also going to have more room to wear, but its heavier, and may cause more friction in some systems. I would certainly look at the simple plastic pulley sleeves if I was going to be using a caribiner as a pully, its quite shocking how much extra force is needed to overcome that friction if the rope is running 180* around the biner. I only lift people, not packs, and under somewhat controlled conditions, but I've learned that there are some really good ideas that just don't work as well as you'd hope when you account for the friction.

[Orion]

Mea culpa. I looked at a number of websites and got an average. Problem is some were in pounds weight...

...A 7 mm cord is good for most places. If a rope was taken to somewhere like Federation I'd have 9-10 mm, much safer.

Oh, okay. I thought maybe you had found some exceptional rope, or maybe it had a dyneema core.

I agree with you that 7mm (nylon) is a minimum for belaying a human.

[Orion]

Maybe I need to do more weights for my arms.

Your time might be better spent reducing your pack weight. A manageable pack would eliminate the whole question in many cases.

[beardless]

So the simplest solutions so far are:

1. Use a thicker rope. This makes sense. A thicker rope has more surface area to grip and that was part of the issue. I also wonder whether the rock climbing rope was not the best choice. It is strong but also smooth so harder to grip.
2. Bring a lighter pack. Both packs were heavy as we had food for about a week in case we did side trips.
3. Pack haul contents of the pack in separate hauls. This would take more time and not be the best if it was raining but is a simple easy solution I could have taken.
4. Utilise leg muscles as much as possible to do the lifting.

More suggested simple solutions are:
4. to use webbing for short pack hauls. The Notch is maybe 5-7 metres of steep rock face with ledges. Not sure if this would work.
5. Using 20-25mm tape which may be easier to grip instead of rope.

The other solutions require more gear like caribiners and/or complex knots. It seems these would require less strength but would take more time to set up and to the extent more gear was required would involve carrying more weight on the hike.

[GPSGuided]

Ummm... So much hassle. Time for a pack hauling drone...

[Orion]

2. Bring a lighter pack. Both packs were heavy as we had food for about a week in case we did side trips.

For a week in January it should be possible to be well under 20kg without leaving anything important behind.

But if you're going to haul then it's either a heavier rope and/or extra gear. Or else getting burly. If the latter then maybe you should consider the upper body workout after all.

[Huntsman247]

But if you're going to haul then it's either a heavier rope and/or extra gear. Or else getting burly. If the latter then maybe you should consider the upper body workout after all.

I agree. Getting stronger improves the whole experience anyhow. Your not out of breath, you don't hurt after a long multi-day trip carrying 20kg and can haul packs easier but it also makes the scrambling safer and easier.

[Orion]

But if you're going to haul then it's either a heavier rope and/or extra gear. Or else getting burly. If the latter then maybe you should consider the upper body workout after all.

I agree. Getting stronger improves the whole experience anyhow. Your not out of breath, you don't hurt after a long multi-day trip carrying 20kg and can haul packs easier but it also makes the scrambling safer and easier.

You think so? I've never had really big upper body or core muscles. As a rock climber they are counterproductive at some point. As a bushwalker I think they're counterproductive most of the time. And they aren't as attractive if you're trying to maintain a girlish figure. I haven't carried a 20kg pack on a walk in many years. Frankly, I don't want to shlep that much weight around anymore. It's hard on my knees and back, it makes any sort of tricky terrain that much trickier/dangerous, and it's just not that much fun. Plus I might have to pack haul.

This past January I carried 12 days of food in Southwest Tasmania and my pack weighed in below 20kg. It could've been lighter but I was being conservative with what I took.

[Huntsman247]

You think so? I've never had really big upper body or core muscles. As a rock climber they are counterproductive at some point. As a bushwalker I think they're counterproductive most of the time. And they aren't as attractive if you're trying to maintain a girlish figure. I haven't carried a 20kg pack on a walk in many years. Frankly, I don't want to shlep that much weight around anymore. It's hard on my knees and back, it makes any sort of tricky terrain that much trickier/dangerous, and it's just not that much fun. Plus I might have to pack haul.

This past January I carried 12 days of food in Southwest Tasmania and my pack weighed in below 20kg. It could've been lighter but I was being conservative with what I took.

I'm not talking about getting ripped and bulking. But in the last year, I've been doing lots of high interval training that works on core and upper body and push-ups. On top of running couple times a week. It makes it so much easier.
I'm far from looking like the Hulk. lol.
But since I do a lot of off-track bush bashing with heavy camera gear my pack is always around 20 odd kgs. So it's pretty difficult going but I've found a huge improvement in my ability to scramble and in spots where balance is required, it certainly helps heaps having stronger arm and core muscles.
Instead of feeling like I got hit by a bus after multiday trips I feel great now.
Don't you need to be rather strong in the arms and core for rock climbing? I've been watching the world championships in rock climbing on youtube and honestly, some of those guys and women are pretty muscular...

This thread got me thinking though about improving my hauling set up. I've got an idea and have ordered some rope to try something. Will post it if it works.

[GPSGuided]

Isn’t it fortunate that there aren’t that many pack hauling situations for most bushwalkers.

[Lophophaps]

Climbing krabs weigh 30-40 grams. A prusik weighs 10-20 grams. A 20 metre rope 7 mm in diameter weighs about 700 grams. Share this in a party of three or more and it's not too much extra to carry. In any case, if a haul or lower section is in the route, the gear is needed. I took my 7 mm cord and climbing krabs to the Budawangs when we climbed The Castle, belaying people. Coming off The Viking I had baby gear krabs and 4 mm cord for the pack.

One key point in ropes that many miss is their resistance to abrasion. Tape is more easly cut than kernmantle. This website shows weights and strength.
http://www.singingrock.com/accessory-cord-spools
5 mm cord: weight 18.7 grams/metre, strength 5 kN
7 mm cord: weight 35.1 grams/metre, strength 11.5 kN
1 kN is 102 kg

The system I suggested above needs three krabs and three prusiks. The more efficient system that Neo suggested is the same, but like mine would work better with pulleys and rope gripping devices, which are heavier than prusik loops. Bachman knots can be made in a few seconds, and while something like a Petzl Croll works much better, the weight mitigates against them and pulleys for most situations. Knowing a variety of knots and lashings should be a goal of all bushwalkers. An Italian or Munter hitch is a good one to learn, and a rolling hitch works for abseiling with minimal gear.

It's all but impossible to haul a dead weight by gripping a climbing rope with the hands, let alone a thinner cord. Let the legs do the work, or use a system that has mechanical advantage.

[Orion]

Don't you need to be rather strong in the arms and core for rock climbing? I've been watching the world championships in rock climbing on youtube and honestly, some of those guys and women are pretty muscular...

Those indoor competitions are more like gymnastics than what your typical rock climber does. I'm not sure there's an analog in the bushwalking world. What would the World Championships in Bushwalking look like? :-)

Most climbers I know don't really look that strong, except maybe in the forearms. Bushwalking, in my experience, is about 90% legs.

[Orion]

Isn’t it fortunate that there aren’t that many pack hauling situations for most bushwalkers.

I was wondering about that. I've only been on three walks in Tasmania where it was mentioned as a possibility: Western Arthurs, Anne Circuit, and Du Cane traverse. None of those came close to being an issue, although I think I did carry my wife's pack up the Notch for her.

But are there other, less traveled places where one might be needed, or maybe some spots where they are unavoidable?