Gluing polyester canvas to vinyl??

[Moondog55]

I just bought a very cheap [$50-] second hand vinyl advertising banner to use as a fly sheet over my winter base-camp canvas tent. I know I can't sew this stuff on my machine and I need to add lots of tie-down points to it.
I do have some Very HD polyester fabric in my stash and I can sew D-rings to that but I have never tried gluing canvas to PVC before.

This PVC tarp is 6 * 4 meters and 440 GSM stuff, has a 6mm rope welded into each side for putting into aluminium track, very stiff stuff

I know that there are very strong PVC glues available for PVC to PVC but I haven't found any information so far on what I need to know.
Any information and links would be appreciated.

[Avatar]

I suggest looking at leatherworking tools for hand sewing. Slow but sure. There are those palm needle kits. Should keep you out of trouble for a while.
Clark Rubber stock an interesting array of adhesives (and puncture patches). StormSure is one flexible adhesive they stock. May be a bit like SeamGrip?
I wouldn't rely on any adhesive alone for this task. What about grommeting behind the rope?

[Moondog55]

To hand sew I would need to buy a sailmakers palm and some new needles and those are a little exxy for me at the moment. A modern glue should be stronger than stitching and cheaper too. If I had access to an ultrasonic welder that is what I would use.
I'll try Clark Rubber next time I'm in that area, I was hoping I could get a shortcut to a proven product. I'll also phone 3M and Bostik for their information

[Tex]

Where do you need to put the tie points? Along the edges or in the middle?

[Moondog55]

Corners, ridge ends and every 600/900mm on the lower edges

[Tex]

Corners, ridge ends and every 600/900mm on the lower edges

On the sides with the rope you could use some short off-cuts of the aluminium sail track and drill a hole in the edge of it to put a rope through. A #6 screw through the track, banner material and rope will stop it sliding, or you can hammer the track down so it is tight in the rope. You can get the sail track fairly easy, I may even have some off-cuts you could have.

Do the edges have hems that you could put eyelets into?

If all else fails you could send it to Adelaide I would be happy to sew patches and put eyelets in it for you.

[Moondog55]

That is very generous of you Tex but the Boss wold kill me spending any more money { the tarp is very bulky and heavy] but thanks for the tip on the track, that is something I hadn't thought of and the track is reasonably cheap. I'll give Direct Aluminium a call and find out how much a couple of lengths will cost me. Edges are welded double layer 32mm deep
Wow Cheap as chips $18- per section so #$36- and a couple of meters of each left over, great idea as that is probably as strong as gluing and much stiffer I'll still need a triangle at 45 tho in each corner, fly will need to cope with 100k winds.
I can roll it up and stash it on top of the trailer so no problem with transport. Many many thanx for the insight

[Moondog55]

Track is 6.5M long, maybe I could have them cut a single track into 4 quarters; if I put the track at the ends on the 4M edges that would only leave 750mm in the centre.
Thoughts> I think it is worth saving the cost of 1 length of track

[Turfa]

Do you really need a fabric loop with a D ring for a tie out ? Could you just put in a bunch more eyelets around the edge to attach your guylines to ? The eyelets will be very strong attachment points, especially with the welded rope edging.

[Moondog55]

Unless also sewn I have never found eyelets as strong as a D-ring or triangle on a tape/webbing loop. I am talking here about 404mm Stainless Steel Ds on 32mm webbing here, not the usual Nylon or Zytel stuff you use on LW gear

[Turfa]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the heavy duty eyelets that are actually used on lots of banners as attachment points. When they are installed in the doubled over, hemmed banner PVC they are very strong. They are used to hang the banner & you will usually see a banner tear before the eyelets pull out. You could try a local sign shop to find someone to install them or any company that does canvas work.

[Moondog55]

OK Turfa I'm with you
Don't you also need extra layers of fabric under those? I'd be interested in seeing data for nominal wind speed on those grommets.
I'm still also trying to figure out a way of making the frame to put the fly over the tent using [ if possible] the Downee pipe fittings I have in the shed, trouble with those is the tube is 50mm and the fittings are for nominal 40mm bore

[andrewa]

PVC pool glue from Clarke Rubber.

I thought most hardware shops sold PVC glue. I found a lot when I was trying to find polyurethane glue for doing some packraft modifications.......albeit with little yield for PU glues.

I wouldn't like to rely on a PVC anything, except plumbing pipe..........at which stage the thought crosses my mind. What about adhesive used for this? It bonds PVC pipe rather well.

A

[Tex]

Vyna bond is very good, although a bit pricey.
I have some contacts (!) so may be able to get you a couple of tubes for trade price if interested.

http://www.plastidip.net.au/vyna-bond-vinyl-repair

[Moondog55]

Andrew it may work but perhaps with no give, glued plumbing joints do seem to be rigid
Tex I may take you up on that offer next month as Vynabond was one of the two I found to do this job, the other was VLP

http://www.caravanpro.com.au/products/a ... glue---vlp

[Strider]

Why not just splice some tie offs into the rope?

[Moondog55]

Strider these PVC advertising banners are made with no spare rope exposed and the welding fuses the rope to the base fabric.
For the price I paid I did expect to have to do some work on them.
I have a couple of similar banners but much smaller and the base fabric is incredible tough, with the downside being they are also stiff and difficult to work with in small spaces.
It cost me $50- much less than a new polytarp the same size

[Turfa]

Here's another thought....... if the rope edging is welded to the fabric, could you simply punch a semicircular hole through the banner fabric just inside the rope edging & then sew your fabric loops & D-rings through the hole & around the exposed rope ?

[Moondog55]

Well I do not want to weaken the fly at all and I did think that reinforcing will be needed where guys attach.
As well as high winds I will need occasionally to cope with heavy snow loads as the slope of the fly will be quite shallow, about 30 degrees.
This structure will be up for at least 8 weeks and perhaps longer; depending on the ski season and how many people join me at Falls Creek this winter and it must be and appear to be a temporary structure

[Turfa]

Or these banner clips. I have seen these used on banners & they are pretty impressive for something that attaches so easily. Will take up to 100kg of force per clip.

http://www.easyklip.com/banners_signs.php

[Moondog55]

Interesting are they available locally or do I need to import?

It's OK I just found the website
They look a lot stronger than the things I use at the moment which are made for shadecloth

Do they really work?

[Moondog55]

As part of this project I will need a frame to hold the fly
I am having a little mental trouble working out the best geometry for using the 4 lengths of aluminium tubing I have purchased.
There are 4 tubes; each 6M in length and I was hoping to use them full length if possible or half length at the most but I don't think that is going to happen.
Tent is 2400mm Tarp is 4000mm Let me have your ideas

[Moondog55]

I will try ordinary PVC plumbers glue
While I was in Bunnings getting the glue ( storm water drain at home- long story) I noticed they now keep PVC pressure pipe fittings; the strongest pressure pipe is 50.5mm ID which is just the amount of clearance needed on 50mm aluminium tubing. has anyone experimented with using PP fittings as tent frame connectors?
I have seen a couple of geodesic domes made with small diameter PVC pluming pipe at CERES a while ago and those were quite strong

[Moondog55]

Update to the pressure pipe query
I can get a 6m length of PN12 PVC pressure pipe from McCanns plumbing for $15- per metre or $37.50 a 6 metre length in PN12/15
PN18 is much more expensive at $140- a length Guess which I'll be using unless someone wants to share as I really only need 1.5m
PN12 has an internal diameter of 53,, which is good clearance
http://www.iplex.com.au/iplex.php?page= ... =12&sec=78
Fittings are about $3- each and 3 fitting per pole end plus one in the middle, so the joiner works out at about the same cost as the SS eye bolts

[Moondog55]

While the 45s are $3- the "T"s were $8-
I'm going to make a start on these over the next few days and will post pictures then. I need to get an aluminium blade for the power saw first tho as the cuts need to be as straight as possible

[Moondog55]

Used the mates drop saw to cut the poles and PVC this morning
Here are a few pictures of the frame as she goes so far; the fitting in the middle will be to take a vertical pole at the front of the canvas tent

[Moondog55]

And a few more pictures
I'm still to work out the details for the attachment of the tent but the fly will just throw over the top and be guyed and pegged, and at this stage still thinking eye bolts and turnbuckles. I still need to drill the holes to bolt the frame together so using the bolt holes as attachment points makes sense to me

[Moondog55]

I left the frame up overnite, checking this AM I realise I have made a dumb mistake. When laying up the connectors against the right angled guide I forgot to reverse the guide, consequently the frame is not correctly angled. I'll just have to redo one set of ends.
I could use the left-over fitting buy some 50mm tube and make a triangular tipi frame, drill it through and cut the other tube in half and make this a 3 A frame or do something else like use it with longer legs to do an external support for a tall tipi
Thoughts on the matter??

[neilmny]

Not that it mattters much, but I can't get my head around where the two ends would be different.
I see them as the same structure or assembly (I am assuming the ends are symetrical)

[Moondog55]

No; I deliberately put a small angle on the ends, yes they are symmetrical but they're not supposed to be, the small opposed angles is supposed to make this structure more stable as it basically triangulates the frame. In the same way as a tent frame such as the Eureka Timberline tent has the end poles at a slight angle All I had to do was remember to revers the first angle and it would be fine; as it is when looking from the side I see a tilted parallelogram, both legs leaning to one side : unstable