Weight Comparisons. Today v Yesterday

[kanangra]

I still have a fair bit of gear from when I first started out back in the 70's and thought it might be interesting to do a comparison between the weight of that gear and the weight of the gear I use now 40 years later. The comparison is not strictly fair because in some instances, such as the tent and the pack, the old gear is larger with more capacity. But it is interesting just the same. I will use the "Big 4" as referred to in another post but add the raincoat and groundsheet to make a "Big 6" comparison.

The Pack.

Back then I used a Wilderness Equipment canvas pack with a capacity of about 70 or 80 litres. It weighs about 2.5kg. Now I use either a Gossamer Gear Mariposa which has a capacity of about 60 litres and weighs about 800g or a Z Packs Arc Blast which has a capacity of about 50l and weighs about 480g.

The Sleeping bag

Back then I used an Arthur Ellis brand "Everest" model which weighs 2137g. Now I use a Western Mountaineering bag that weighs about 560g or, if its going to be cold, a different WM bag that weighs just on 1kg.

The Tent

Back then I used a Paddy Pallin wall tent that slept 3. Made of Japara when dry it weighed 2113g. Poles when carried weighed 412g a pair. Pegs added another 162g. Total for the tent (not including groundsheet) of 2687g. Now I use a Tarp tent Moment which weighs about 810g without the crossing pole. Or I use a Zpacks solo tarp with screen which weighs 451g including pole pegs and guys.

The ground sheet

I used to carry a large green cape type ground sheet which I think was made by Intertek? It weighed 516g. Tday I use a sheet of Tyvek that weighs 146g or the Z packs solo ground sheet that weighs 77g.

The sleeping mat.

Back then I used closed cell foam which was quite light and then I graduated to a Therma reast long (brown in colour with small metal valve) It weighed 747g. Today I use a Therma rest Neo air short that weighs 257g.

The rain coat.

Back then Iused a Wilderness Equipment gortex jacket that weighs 899g. Now I use a Z packs cuben fibre rain jacket that weighs 133g.

I could go on with a comparison of other gear. I still have my old billies, spronnies plates and cutlery. the comparison there would also be interesting with the titanium gear i use today.

But still the total weight of my lightest big 6 combination today is less than the weight of just the pack i carried back then. But then I was a lot younger then and weight was not such a consideration.

K.

[Penguin]

But then I was a lot younger then and weight was not such a consideration.

K.

Amen

[Tony]

Thanks kanangra,

An interesting thread, thanks for starting it.

I still have most of my bushwalking gear from the 70's and all of my gear from the 80's, I will weigh them on the weekend but my gear from the 70's (all purchased from Paddy's) was much lighter than my gear brought Paddy's in the 80's, my 2p tent from the 70's weighs around 1kg and my 3p tent from the 80's weighs 4 kg. Unfortunately I do not have my 70's H frame pack anymore but it was fairly light and probably weighed it at around 2kg as my 80's pack does both were equally uncomfortable.

For sleeping mat in the 70's I just used a space blanket and slept on the ground, in the 80's I had a 3/4 Thermarest that weighed 900g.

Tony

[wayno]

similar, my black diamond infinity is 1.7kg, a kilo ighter than my fairydown terranova

my exped ultralight sleeping bag is 500gm, 1.5 kilo lighter than my fairydown adventurer

raincoat was a pvc heavyweight, must have been at leaset 800 gm. depending on what i'm doing i can go down to 180gm OR helium rainshell and no more than 550gm montane xt super fly

boots are now 1000gm a pair x ultra salomon mids,
my original ones would have been at least two thirds of a kilo heavier

stove was an optimus 8r 760g, and i needed a seperate fuel canister.
now have a msr xgk 400gm. cooks faster. need less fuel...

then there was all the wool clothing, the woollen t shirt, real heavyweight must have been close to 400gm, and half a tonne wet.. woolen ballaclava and gloves.
wollen bush shirt another 800gm. plus a heavy wool jersey must have been two thirds of a kilo...
now using synthetic mont bell vest 175gm and a 300gm fleece to do the same and 400 down jacket for winter... much warmer packs down smaller.

[kanangra]

Ah yes the wool clothing. Now that is another whole story. Lucky we were young fit and strong back then. Otherwise we'd have been crushed under all that weight.

K.

[wayno]

when polypro and fleee came out, a lot of walkers couldnt dump their old gear fast enough... ironical now people are going for merino. but back then it wasnt merino, it was just heavy coarse wool.. then there was the prickly heat....
if you ever fell in a river with your old wool on, you'd really know waht heavy was about.... then you had the ones wearing the hooded swandri that went down to their knees, 2kg of wool. heaven knows how much when wet, a lot of hunters wouldnt bother with rraincoats...

[ULWalkingPhil]

When I look back, I been a lightweight bushwalker from the word go. 30 years ago i used nothing more than a tarp, often laying it on the ground and sleeping on top, if it rained I would wrap myself in the tarp. Occasionally using sticks and a piece of chord I always carried with me and setup the tarp in a A-Frame.

My pack weight still suffered a bit, mainly because of all the heavy camera gear I used to carry, camera gear with me everywhere I went.

Than for some reason, I stopped overnight bushwalking and concentrated on recreational 4WDing with huge base camps and day walks.

In the past few years I regained my interest in overnight bushwalking, went into all the outdoor stores, they must have had a field day as I believed everything they told me, spent huge amounts of money, first overnight with a pack weight of 25+ kg. Almost killed me. This was only a year or two ago.

Than I started to do some online researching and found a strong following towards light weight backpacking.

Today, my 3-Season base weight is 4Kg and I am far more comfortable and carry more luxuries than I had on that awful 25+ kg overnight hike I done almost two years ago.

What have I learnt:
Number one is that people are not honest as they used to be and Just because a person works in a outdoors store I now learnt most of them don't know *&%$#!. I am often appalled at some of the *&%$#! they pass onto beginners when I am in these stores, this includes the major stores in Sydney.

So called specialist outdoor stores here in Australia, appear to use the scare tactic, there way of thinking, you must have the most expensive heavy leather boots, and tents etc etc etc.

In saying all this I do notice a change in some of these stores of late with some interest shown in lightweight quality gear.

[ULWalkingPhil]

when polypro and fleee came out, a lot of walkers couldnt dump their old gear fast enough... ironical now people are going for merino. but back then it wasnt merino, it was just heavy coarse wool.. then there was the prickly heat....
if you ever fell in a river with your old wool on, you'd really know waht heavy was about.... then you had the ones wearing the hooded swandri that went down to their knees, 2kg of wool. heaven knows how much when wet, a lot of hunters wouldnt bother with rraincoats...

That brings back some memory, those heavy wool jumpers where a nightmare, used to make me itch and yes even more heavy when wet.

[Moondog55]

The young lady who borrowed my books has kindly sent them back with a copy of a 1966 Paddy Pallin catalogue.
OMG stuff was expensive in 1966 compared to wages, my dad had been in the boot trade at 8 quid a week before moving to another job at the grand wage of 11 quid a week. So a weekly wake of $20- after tax.
H-frame Rucksac top of the line $27.85; 5 1/4 lbs in weight
A frame 4 external pockets $19.20 ; weighs 5lbs
A frame japara tent 2-Man 2lbs 6ozs $16.30
Era wall tent 4lbs $$24.20 Lite weight version $25.65 and 3lbs 3 ozs
PaddyMade "Hotham" sleeping bag Regular length $31.95 Extra long $34.20 weight aprox 4lbs Zippers available as an added extra at $3-
Light weight leather boots $9.80 "Sherpa " rubber soles $3- extra or hob nails and Tricounis available ( Actually I miss Tricouni nails; they were good on damp logs and wet rocks) Heels $4.32 a pair #6 $0.12 each #1 $0.10 each Sectors $0.67 each

KIWI brand oilskins Weighing 1lb 12ozs $17.25

[madmacca]

when polypro and fleee came out, a lot of walkers couldnt dump their old gear fast enough... ironical now people are going for merino. but back then it wasnt merino, it was just heavy coarse wool.. then there was the prickly heat....
if you ever fell in a river with your old wool on, you'd really know waht heavy was about.... then you had the ones wearing the hooded swandri that went down to their knees, 2kg of wool. heaven knows how much when wet, a lot of hunters wouldnt bother with rraincoats...

Yeah, the superfine merino wool is so much better than the coarser wools that used to be so common. Nearly all my base layers are merino.

[wayno]

yeah theres quite a difference in the comfort factor, although the normal wool was tougher...

[mattburga]

Really like this thread.

[walkon]

A mate and I reminisced about the gear we used to carry and wear, our packs were always kept under 20kg but the clothes were attrocous especially when wet, boots that didnt dry ... cant believe how much better the gear we have is now

[Allchin09]

Hi,

Just came across this article from an 1990 Sydney Bushwalker magazine regarding lightweight walking. Quite interesting to see how light some of the packs were 50 years ago!

Makes you think, how did they pull it off with the heavier equipment? Some valid points are also raised regarding the large packs of today.

[DanShell]

I am relatively new to overnight or multi day bushwalking as such so I have had a very steep learning curve.

Just to take a step back first I want to mention that we have gone a full circle with our car/4wd camping as well. 20 odd years ago we would throw a kmart tent and assorted gear into the boot of the car and head bush, it was relatively simple. We then started having kids so we would fill a 4wd up and tow a trailer full of gear that took hours to set up and pack up but we had all the comforts you could ever want when camping, but it was painful of course so it detracted from the experience eventually.
We loved getting out and knew there was a better way so we went to a camper trailer. A lot easier to set up and still has all the creature comforts you could want. So much better.
However now that the kids are growing up they no longer want to come away with us so we now mostly just use a simple 30 second tent and a few basic essentials!

What relevance has this got on hiking???

Well a year or two ago we went on our first overnight hike we took everything, including plenty of celebratory drinks. I think we were both under 20 kilos each though

Fast forward to now and we have learnt very very quickly how to be a minimalist when hiking!! Yes we are still on our steep learning curve, the internet is a help and also a hinderance!

The whole ultra light thing has been appealing to me but the more I get out in the higher areas of Tassie the more I am learning I can not be a true ultra lighter. I would suggest at this stage in time I am as light as I need to be, obviously because we are only relatively new we may change our way of thinking in time though.

I use a Tarptent SS1, Enlightened Equipment quilt, Thermarest mat and I thought a golite jam 50 pack was the way to go but it was not, so I recently purchased an Osprey Aether....a bit on the heavy side but it makes up for the extra weight with comfort.

Its fair to say we have reduced our 20kgs down to around 10kgs these days for an overnight hike

I often read about people who have a base weight under 5kgs and wonder how they do it, especially in a place like Tassie.

[beardless]

The most weighty item for me is water. One thing which remains constant.

[Lindsay]

The most weighty item for me is water. One thing which remains constant.

Me too. Water can add 2-3 kilos to my weight on most trips. One reason I enjoyed walking in New Zealand was being able to make do with 750 ml bottle with plenty of opportunity to top it up.

[Kainas]

The most weighty item for me is water. One thing which remains constant.

Me too. Water can add 2-3 kilos to my weight on most trips. One reason I enjoyed walking in New Zealand was being able to make do with 750 ml bottle with plenty of opportunity to top it up.

My husband and I still laugh about our first 2 days hiking the Routeburn in NZ... we carried over 4litres of water. It was our first overnight hike, our first hike of more than an hour, we had no idea and it took us two days to realise that there was enough water around us that we would be fine without the extra weight!!

[ElvenCraft Gear]

Nice to find this forum.
The comparison between old and new is quite interesting.
When the kids (4 x sons) started Scouts, we needed lightweight gear for them, but it seemed all the modern stuff was a lot heavier and smaller than I remembered my old gear to be. A 2 man tent at 2.5kg was being sold as an "Ultralight" for big dollars - maybe I had "romantic memory syndrome"

Sure enough though, when I pulled out the old rip-stop pup-tent from the loft it weighed in at 1.6kg. I bought this thing for $35 back in the '70's.!!!!
That kind of thing really bugs me.
How can manufacturers "improve" gear by turning a simple to pitch, lightweight tent into a heavy, cramped, brain teaser puzzle ??

Being an old bushie, you get the attitude that if you need something done right you're gunna have to do it yourself.!
So I researched all the DIY gear, got some silnylon, and started what I thought would be a simple job of making a new milennium version of a pup tent for the kids.
I soon found out just how difficult it was to sew silnylon on the wife's domestic machine. I reckon it would be easier to tattoo a live eel.

Old bushies are stubborn buggers though - some of the early attempts were disasters, but after (too many) trials and prototypes we got some pretty good results - and soon my sons scouting mates started requesting a tent like theirs.
I now make 2x tents for the scouts. Both 2.1m x 1.5m x 1.2m high. Simple "A Frame" wall tent design, Full silnylon sewn on a commercial needle feed machine with re-enforcing everywhere to withstand kids abuse.
The single skin weighs 1170 grams and the semi double skin weighs 1280 grams. Both can sleep 3x scouts, or 2x adults + packs & gear.

Sometimes people get upset when I smirk at their "Modern" $600 tent that barely fits a bloke and pack, and weighs almost 2kg.
All the weight of modern stuff is because they still use Urethane coated taffeta (why?) and have a multi pole brain teaser support system. (the kids poles weigh nothing - they pick up 2x sticks off the ground around the campsite - set up in 5 minutes)
Interestingly US brand "Big Agnes" came out with a tent like mine and won "US Backpacker magazine Tent of the Year"

For Scouts the weight issue is critical - a 40kg scout should only carry 8kg. It's almost impossible...........Modern pack 2.5kg + Modern tent 2.5kg + sleeping bag 1200g + carry mat 350g + stove and cooking gear 900g + water 2kg +first aid kit, trowel, etc 500gram = almost 10kg and the scout still needs food, spare/warm clothes and rain gear.

Next challenge is to use modern materials to re-create the full frame backpack of the 1970's. Yes, my old one is lighter than a modern "backpack" and it also lets the air circulate to avoid the "back-sauna" so kindly provided by modern packs.

Give me old school design any day - with modern materials.

[Franco]

"Modern pack 2.5kg + Modern tent 2.5kg + sleeping bag 1200g + carry mat 350g + stove and cooking gear 900g"
For budget stuff , if you don't make your own, maybe yes however there are mid priced 60L packs at around 1kg, spacious fully enclosed tents at 1.5 kg and under, and a gas stove plus pot kit can be less than 200g or a metho burner/wind screen/pot for even less weight and cost.
Sometime we forget that the "cheap" rucksack bought in 1960 was really a few days wage in cost, more so for a tent.

[Bubbalouie]

If you're up to spending a few days wages on each big bit of kit:

- Pack (full frame with air gap): Zpacks Arc Blast - 0.58
- Tent (1.5 wall, Inc pegs and carbon poles): SkyScape X - 0.62
- Sleeping Bag (hydrophobic down quilt comfortable to 5c): Katabatic gear Chisos - 0.55
- Mat (full length long 2" thick inflatable): Thermarest Neoair Xlite large - 0.5
- Cooking gear (titanium burner, 0.65l pot, flint, spoon): Gear by Toaks and others from aliexpress.com - 0.14

Total: 2.4kg

Thats for a grown man, however it's also about $1800 in gear, not what you'd be buying for a scout.

I agree with the original lamentation, it would be good to have a manufacturer take advantage of modern materials (maybe not so far as cuben) and production line techniques to produce more affordable light weight robust gear.

My nephew recently went on a school hike and carried a 15kg pack, he weighs about 42kg. He didn't enjoy the trip due to the weight of his gear.

The "budget" equipment now is quite cheap but seems very complicated to manufacture and also very heavy, it'd be better to trade some of the complexity for better materials and lower weight and sell at the same price.

I strongly suspect there wouldn't be enough of a market for that though, I'd like to be wrong.

[ElvenCraft Gear]

"Modern pack 2.5kg + Modern tent 2.5kg + sleeping bag 1200g + carry mat 350g + stove and cooking gear 900g"
For budget stuff , if you don't make your own, maybe yes however there are mid priced 60L packs at around 1kg, spacious fully enclosed tents at 1.5 kg and under, and a gas stove plus pot kit can be less than 200g or a metho burner/wind screen/pot for even less weight and cost.
Sometime we forget that the "cheap" rucksack bought in 1960 was really a few days wage in cost, more so for a tent.

I'm a Scout Leader - my main focus is on gear for my Scouts and 4x sons.
Gear for an adult with a disposable income isn't a problem.
However the challenge I/we face is to put together a complete hiking kit under 8kg that is suitable for a 12-15 year old at a price affordable for a family with mortgage and limited income.

If you have any suggestions I'd be glad to hear them.

Today's kids would much rather spend $400 on a gaming console than $600 - $800 on hiking gear.
These same kids are the ones who will determine the value of our National Parks and Bush reserves in the future.

My wife and I are doing what we can by producing tough silnylon tents under $300 that will comfortably sleep 3x scouts (or 2x adults and their packs) weighing only 1170grams, based on simple old school designs which eliminate the weight of poles in the kit. I weighed the poles of one of my scout's smaller tents and they were over 1200 gram. Our tents are even lighter than my Hennessy hammock.

The next target area for the Scouts is a tough waterproof 60L backpack around 1kg under $200.

[GPSGuided]

I'm a Scout Leader - my main focus is on gear for my Scouts and 4x sons.
Gear for an adult with a disposable income isn't a problem.
However the challenge I/we face is to put together a complete hiking kit under 8kg that is suitable for a 12-15 year old at a price affordable for a family with mortgage and limited income.

If you have any suggestions I'd be glad to hear them.

Can certainly feel your pain! Acquiring gears for one has been easy, or even for day hikes. Acquiring gears for multi-day walk/camp for a family can really hit the bank account bad.

As a Scout, do you know if there are shared resources within the organization? Do boys and girls have to have their own tent, or are there group tents that can be owned by the group?

[Gadgetgeek]

I can't speak for scouts, or even for all schools, or all situations. I can say that gear for groups tends to be on the tougher than needed side of things. Since gear owned by organizations tends to be treated rougher than personal gear. As for how much the kids end up carrying, it is tough to get them to leave things behind, and get the pack weight down. there are some things they absolutely must have, like two pairs of shoes and rain gear, so that adds to it. Combine that with poorly chosen bags, and its not a good situation. Another side of things is the schools and organizations desired outcomes, and expectations for the kids. I would hazard that many organizers are a bit out of touch with reality, and wouldn't consider a 42kg kid and a 15kg pack to be a big deal. From a school perspective I think its a bit daft to demand parents buy kit for their kids, knowing full well the parents have no idea what they are buying (you could tell from my group which store they bought from, and it was pretty well BCF, katmandu, mountain designs and anaconda, and while the mountain designs kids had good gear, both were the worst suited for them) And the parents either know that its only going to get used once, or they try to double duty it (like the suitcase with straps kid) that went for clothes and shoes. Not one kid in my group had shoes adequate for hiking, and about half had good shoes for in the water (of course the parents are smarter than us, and figure that their little snowflake is okay with thongs) And as far as the kids were concerned, I can either micro-manage pack weights, or I can teach them. Teaching them means that some will carry more than they should, if they can't figure out how to work as a group. Granted as a leader my job is to make sure none are too far over the edge and help them when needed, but not every leader will do that, and sometimes you mis judge how close to the edge some are.

From a gear standpoint, I think a lot of times, as we've gotten better tech and lost weight, we've added more features. I think it would be a hard sell these days to sell a very simple pack when lots of bags have all manner of features. Granted almost all of those features are a waste of time. (I mean, a bladder holder is nice, but taking 10 min and half unpacking to fill it is a little pointless) That being said, a good pack at a good price-point would be of interest to groups looking to buy large numbers of units. For kids packs, I would say your biggest selling feature would be the range of adjustment in the harness. Growing boys need growing packs, and I can say that on my last trip, not one boy had a pack that fit on the first attempt, and several had packs that were far too short. Also an intuitive and easy adjustment system, so that someone like me can quickly adjust it. I had to adjust an osprey pack that had the velcro system. It was very difficult with the pack full, and it would have been an ordeal to unpack the bag.

Another thing to consider, instead of doing a water-proof bag, maybe look into a bag that is easily water-proofed, but isn't relying on the coatings that degrade over time. That will also help weight, and from your end, an additional market in fitted pack covers and liners. If you could get a pack designed and manufactured that was light, simple and robust, you would have an easier time selling it to organizations than individuals, but there is a market there. A lot of organizations (either schools, or outdoor ed providers) already own trangias and tents. Packs wouldn't be a hard sell provided they were a good investment for the organization.

[Franco]

Elven Craft Gear ,
The problem isn't that gear is heavier or more expensive now , it has to do with changed priorities/likes/needs* .

"Sure enough though, when I pulled out the old rip-stop pup-tent from the loft it weighed in at 1.6kg. I bought this thing for $35 back in the '70's.!!!!"

Now I don't know exactly how that tent looks but $35 in 1970 is about $370 now , $35 in 1975 is about the same as $225 now.
This is a tent of similar weight that can be bought locally for less than $300.

I am guessing that it offers a bit more protection/features than your 1970 $35 tent.
http://adventurefriends.com.au/ferrino- ... rettyPhoto
You can buy that type of tent on the net for a lot less too.
*post a photo of your $35 tent and chances are that I'll find something like that for less now, however most likely something that many would not want to buy anyway.

Right now you can buy the SMD 65l 1100g framed Fusion pack for $115 USD, still under $200 delivered here.
Not waterproof but how many packs are ?

BTW, for the DIY brigade, the plans for the original 2 person Tarptent are still on our pages :
http://www.tarptent.com/projects/tt2photos.html

having some experience in sewing , a few days to spare and about $150 you can make it yourself.
( not for me...)

[corvus]

I can't speak for scouts, or even for all schools, or all situations. I can say that gear for groups tends to be on the tougher than needed side of things. Since gear owned by organizations tends to be treated rougher than personal gear. As for how much the kids end up carrying, it is tough to get them to leave things behind, and get the pack weight down. there are some things they absolutely must have, like two pairs of shoes and rain gear, so that adds to it. Combine that with poorly chosen bags, and its not a good situation. Another side of things is the schools and organizations desired outcomes, and expectations for the kids. I would hazard that many organizers are a bit out of touch with reality, and wouldn't consider a 42kg kid and a 15kg pack to be a big deal. From a school perspective I think its a bit daft to demand parents buy kit for their kids, knowing full well the parents have no idea what they are buying (you could tell from my group which store they bought from, and it was pretty well BCF, katmandu, mountain designs and anaconda, and while the mountain designs kids had good gear, both were the worst suited for them) And the parents either know that its only going to get used once, or they try to double duty it (like the suitcase with straps kid) that went for clothes and shoes. Not one kid in my group had shoes adequate for hiking, and about half had good shoes for in the water (of course the parents are smarter than us, and figure that their little snowflake is okay with thongs) And as far as the kids were concerned, I can either micro-manage pack weights, or I can teach them. Teaching them means that some will carry more than they should, if they can't figure out how to work as a group. Granted as a leader my job is to make sure none are too far over the edge and help them when needed, but not every leader will do that, and sometimes you mis judge how close to the edge some are.

From a gear standpoint, I think a lot of times, as we've gotten better tech and lost weight, we've added more features. I think it would be a hard sell these days to sell a very simple pack when lots of bags have all manner of features. Granted almost all of those features are a waste of time. (I mean, a bladder holder is nice, but taking 10 min and half unpacking to fill it is a little pointless) That being said, a good pack at a good price-point would be of interest to groups looking to buy large numbers of units. For kids packs, I would say your biggest selling feature would be the range of adjustment in the harness. Growing boys need growing packs, and I can say that on my last trip, not one boy had a pack that fit on the first attempt, and several had packs that were far too short. Also an intuitive and easy adjustment system, so that someone like me can quickly adjust it. I had to adjust an osprey pack that had the velcro system. It was very difficult with the pack full, and it would have been an ordeal to unpack the bag.

Another thing to consider, instead of doing a water-proof bag, maybe look into a bag that is easily water-proofed, but isn't relying on the coatings that degrade over time. That will also help weight, and from your end, an additional market in fitted pack covers and liners. If you could get a pack designed and manufactured that was light, simple and robust, you would have an easier time selling it to organizations than individuals, but there is a market there. A lot of organizations (either schools, or outdoor ed providers) already own trangias and tents. Packs wouldn't be a hard sell provided they were a good investment for the organization.

I appreciate most of what you say however when I was leading Scouts on any over night Hike I would never have let a 43 kg child carry any more than 25% of his body weight ,rather I would use the team system based on three as not all were that lightweight
The hike tent we chose to use in those days was a Carribe Caddis ,Stove cooking system Trangia 25/7 set gas converted ,this enabled me to spread the load amongst three boys took extra planning /packing but I did know how each of them weighed so it was not rocket science .
I also introduced them to Dehydrated Meals which I had cooked and packaged up for them as individuals for then shared meals ,this involved a lot of work from wife and me but in the long run payed off when the experienced Eagle Patrol won the trifecta of Scouting Camping awards for their year with the local , overall Northwest and the State overall Clarke Trophy only a second time for a North West Troop (well done again boys) wherever you all are

[Gadgetgeek]

I think with scouts its a different focus as well, you are trying to teach actual camping/bushwalking skills, where in my case, I'm trying to teach more generalized leadership and teamwork, and the bushwalking is the medium in which that happens ( I know scouts do leadership and teamwork, but it comes out of the program in a different way). It took several attempts to keep one kid from carrying all the canned food. In the end, he had to learn why I was telling him things, but it took him doing it his way to figure that out.
Distance also makes a difference. My group's longest day was the 9-ish km walk, and the other days were limited to 1-3kms. This particular trip the boys carried a lot of heavier food items, just due to the logistical challenges of the group size, but only carried the fuel for the stoves, since each campsite was designated, the trangia sets were left at each site. So in that case, I was willing to let the kids do some natural learning for the first day.
If as an organization we'd had access to a even decent quality pack at around 100$ those would have been very useful. Like I said, organizations often own tents because that is the easiest way to have consistency of gear, and have it proven. If the kids bring a tent they've bought it will likely not fit any of their needs. as it was, I think the tent choice was one planet goondie 3. Not the lightest of units, but civilized. If you could hit that 100$ mark with a pack that was of useful dimensions, maybe in two height ranges, and with an easy to adjust system, you wouldn't need to sell it to the public. You could market it to schools and outdoor ed providers.

I think that there is a lot of confusion and a very blurry marketplace here. As evidenced by the very poor gear choices made by the kids I was looking after.

When it comes to gear carried then and now, I also think that there is a much greater focus on comfort and more kit designed to reduce the overall impact. When my dad used to camp, cooking was done on a fire, part of the overnight warmth was from the fire, his sleeping bag was probably also augmented with a layer of pine branches. He also probably walked a lot less than I do now. he wouldn't have carried a filter, gone anywhere where he would have needed to carry 5L of water.

[flywire]

... The comparison between old and new is quite interesting... - maybe I had "romantic memory syndrome"

Sure enough though, when I pulled out the old rip-stop pup-tent from the loft it weighed in at 1.6kg. I bought this thing for $35 back in the '70's.!!!!

Hmmm ... my recollection of the overland track on my honeymoon in 1985 with a ($20?) kmart pup tent, esbit stove, close cell camping mats, aluminium pan (yuck), supermarket dehydrated tucker, etc. My pack was light enough for the two of us being only a fraction of what others carried for themselves and the new bride only carried the raincoats and camera!

... *post a photo of your $35 tent and chances are that I'll find something like that for less now, however most likely something that many would not want to buy anyway. ...

I'd like to take you up on that but someone lifted my tent out of the shed a few years ago. I do remember though that after a number of years of camping without a fly we got soaked at Innaminka - annual rainfall about 100mm which must have all fallen early that morning. It never hurt us and if we had taken a fly we wouldn't have the story. (At the first opportunity I bought a fly.)

[Franco]

Just to clarify two points I made above.
I use the term tent meaning fly and inner, to me a bug inner is not a tent (it is apparently in the US...)
By a $35 tent I meant in equivalent dollars now, accounting for inflation.
However if adjusting for inflation is not your thing, I like to buy your house for what you paid for it in 1975....

[Xplora]

I recall an article comparing the total pack weight of today with that of the early walking pioneers. I think it may have been in Wild and Myles Dunphy could have been used at the comparison but I could be wrong. The guys of yesteryear with all their gear weighed less. Times were simpler. They took a rifle for food and did not need a stove. All this lightweight stuff does add up and it is about comfort and safety. I found this which is written about food walkers used to carry https://thejungleisneutral.wordpress.co ... ion-1920s/ One interesting pic there that suggests the Fat Canyoners did not pioneer nude bushwalking. For many trips in good weather we still take a couple of army 'hutchies' and when clicked together and supported with sticks or your walking poles they make a comfortable and light 3 person plus gear shelter.