One Planet Rain Jackets & Overpants

[wayno]

there are sub 200gm raincoats. a lot of ultralight walkers want sub 200gm shells and wont' touch anything over....
i was reading one thread whre a jacket was advertised as sub 200gm but they odified it and it increased by 60gm and there was outrage...
you can buy everything in between from 200 gm up to 570.
570 is more a upper mid weight jacket,
theres no end of 300 and 400gm jackets on the market.

mont bells heaviest jacket is 500gm, the lightest is 165

http://en.montbell.jp/products/goods/li ... egory=1000

[stry]

I do not see how their design needs tweaking. The "Cat and Dog" was perfect. In 20 years many have tried to improve on that design (Macpac, Mont, MD, Wilderness Wear etc) and failed. For me it all comes down to the hood. The old OP C+D had the hood design nailed perfectly.

If it is the same as the old C+D I'll buy two.

Clarence

Gotta agree with that ! Although I will buy only one . I have been told that OP is using the original C&D patterns for the new jackets, and without a side by side comparison, the new hood certainly caught my attention as being the same as the old C&D hood. The only better hood in my experience is the design used by Swazi. Swazi is without equal (in my experience) in their hood design and execution. They are pitching more at the hunting and hard work markets however, which makes the result unavoidably a bit heavier than walkers prefer.

I am not being a traitor to the long legged brigade, and don't want to sound like I am contradicting myself, but the middish thigh length of the old Cat&Dog suits me fine. Just don't make it any shorter !!!!. My impression of the new OP offerings is that one model will be similar to the old C&D in length, and another model will be a little shorter (GRRRRR!) although not as short as the euro things and would still probably cover one's bum when the wearer is upright.

Who knows - maybe there is a market segment (not bushwalking ?) that likes a little less length, hence the two models. Maybe even some bushwalkers are happy to have a little less length ??

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here regarding length is that too long is a bummer (no pun) when climbing. The length drags on your thighs, and the zip often needs to be opened a bit from the bottom to provide freedom of movement, so the extra length can end up not actually giving you any more protection.

[biggbird]

^That's true Stry, too long can be a pain when climbing, though often I actually find it on the way down rather than the way up. Can sometimes get caught on rocks, sticks etc on the way down!

[Ent]

Hi the Adventure Design on zip stops where it should and the jacket continues down with Velcro. This a good design as a long zip can as mention make for a restrictive "skirt".

There is a magical length that keeps the shorts dry but does not restrict movement. As for jacket weight it all depends what you want if for. I no longer count grams for grams sake.

Cheers

[sthughes]

I think if you can walk uphill with the zip done up all the way from the bottom then the jacket is too short!

[stry]

I think if you can walk uphill with the zip done up all the way from the bottom then the jacket is too short!

It's all about each of us achieving that happy compromise ("magical length") isn't it ? I certainly open it a little on most reasonably steep climbs, but I don't want a couple of 300 to 400 mil flaps either.

[sthughes]

Perhaps they should do a model that comes to calf length and includes a free pair of scissors?

[stry]

Then we'd probably end up being given Chinese scissors and having a thread about Chinese scissors

[clarence]

there are sub 200gm raincoats. a lot of ultralight walkers want sub 200gm shells and wont' touch anything over....
theres no end of 300 and 400gm jackets on the market.

I should clairfiy. For a "three layer; hard wearing; over the bum; incorporating a proper hood; won't fall apart in the scrub" style walking jacket, 570gm is very reasonable in my opinion. I own a 400gm jacket and wouldn't take it on a serious off-track multi-day walk.

Clarence

[Moondog55]

The solution is to cut the back of the jacket longer but such a design doesn't look "good" but a fishtail/artigi cut is the only way to get the length you need to sit on a waterproof layer but not trip on the shirts when climbing or walking up hills

[Moondog55]

Just had my beloved take the pictures
This was made in 1992 and is an Extra Large Canetoad. I am wearing a T-Shirt and 100 weight polar fleece shirt under it.
For reference I am 185-186 tall and 115 kilos

[Avatar]

*Maiden post* I applied adhesive-backed velcro to my circa 1989 J&H jacket so the bottom piece below the zip termination (all the way around) folded up inside.
Most of the time I used the shorter variation.
The velcro has lasted longer than the seam seal tapes.

Sadly the jacket has lost its functionality now.
Best ever hood. Never applied DWR to it back in the 90's.

I think it must have been the Taslan that kept the water out since all the Goretex/Event etc jackets I have used since then are rubbish in comparison.
Why is Taslan not heard of much now?

[Gusto]

Another high quality lenghty alternative would be the Hydrophobia jacket by Earth Sea Sky. http://www.earthseasky.co.nz/ NZ made.

[Mountain Rocket]

^ Albeit heavy at 750g.

In that weight range there is also the Wilderness Wear Strider and Cascade jackets.

[Joomy]

Ultralight garments are great for hillwalking in Europe, but add a rucksack and a bit of Tassie scrub and they won’t last long.

Marketing nonsense up there with any other manufacturer. Just like North Face will have you believe that you can't have anything other than a 300-gram alpine jacket, Australian manufacturers want us to believe that you'll die if you venture into the bush with anything other than a 3/4-length flak jacket.

If 570g for a three layer heavy duty jacket is not light, then what is? Many competitors models are 700g and over.

I do not see how their design needs tweaking. The "Cat and Dog" was perfect. In 20 years many have tried to improve on that design (Macpac, Mont, MD, Wilderness Wear etc) and failed.

It's nice that you've found your perfect jacket. Many people, myself included are of the opinion that no product is ever perfect. And I daresay that if someone released a jacket with the same durability, features and fit as your C&D, but 200 grams lighter then you might be inclined to upgrade too. 570 grams for a heavy duty jacket is certainly not a bad weight. My slightly-longer-than hip length eVent jacket is 460 grams and I haven't found anything comparable that's lighter.

there are sub 200gm raincoats. a lot of ultralight walkers want sub 200gm shells and wont' touch anything over....

Sub-200 gram is unusually light even for UL gear and many UL walkers in the States and elsewhere use sil-nylon tarp and ponchos rather than jackets anyway. Many UL walkers will happily admit that their jacket of choice is emergency gear and that they try not to walk in the rain. Most of them also agree that if you carry a heavy-ish pack and wear your jacket a lot then a 2-layer jacket is not going to last very long.

[wayno]

theres more sub 200gm shells coming onto the market, berghaus has one 110gm that is being released next year.
other brands are bringing out their own sub 200gm shells, saw another one online brand escapes me...
they seem to be promoted more and more. possibly a bit of a gimmick to boost sales to get people to buy something lighter or just increase gear ranges to cater for the ultra lighters mountain designs just put out some more jackets between 2 and 300 grams.
as you mention, dont expect 2.5 layer jackets to last like 3 layer jackets.
i only see the ultralight 2.5 layers as something to wear for day walks especially if i'm going to be carrying it in my pack part of the day. i picked up a 2.5 layer event jacket from westcomb, the focus, 250gm, i'im open minded if it doesnt last long interested as much to see wht hte durability is like, i've got a couple of three layer shells if i need something more substantial...
i dont see 550gm as anything other than a mid weight jacket. theres 800gm jackets on the market that are shorter....
its just that you dont see a lot of them so maybe thats skewed peoples understanding of what is light weight. most jackets are made for people walking in countries on tracks where they arent going to bush bash. htey market wants to sell on teh point of being light weight....

[Ent]

Interesting the comments on people avoiding waking in the rain as their jacket is more an emergency piece of kit. I can imagine in many areas of the world this makes sense but not in Tassie.

Try this weekend four people head out. Three wear bum freezer jackets and one has a more traditional jacket. Up at 1400 metres gale force winds and driving rain on snow. All got home but three noticed when putting up tents or face in snow falls their bum freezer jackets rode up over their wet weather pants and the wind and rain was not much fun. The "proper" length jacket was a joy and frankly in the mentioned conditions the few hundred grams was well worth it.

Nobody I know sets out to fall on rocks or into sharp scrub but in Tassie this is an expected event. I have seen light weight gear both work and fail in Tassie but yet to see a tough jacket from any brand that I personally would buy fail.

Sure with much cheaper clothing prices in the USA you can consider wet weather gear as a fashion item but in Australia stuff is massively expensive so for many people it must last.

The more I read this site the more I value people's comments that walk in the same places as I do. I for one would never expect my gear choices to make sense to a person walking in the Northern Territory. Horses for courses governs gear choices.

Cheers

[Nuts]

Nah, short jackets make all the sense in the world- use those shell pants. I'd rather tear a $100 pair of o/pants than a $500 jacket
besides Failure is only a gaffa patch from success. I'm almost at the point of agreeing with you ENT- that you are the exception rather than the rule?

I had a J&H cat n dog (iirc), it was my first new big purchase, wouldn't go back.

It's good to see OP using better materials, lets hope they dont have the woes other brands have had.

I'm not sure event is the go when the materials are thicker.. from what ive seen with other event jackets all the heavier patches are back to gore like breathlessness..

[Ent]

Nah, short jackets make all the sense in the world- use those shell pants. I'd rather tear a $100 pair of o/pants than a $500 jacket
besides Failure is only a gaffa patch from success. I'm almost at the point of agreeing with you ENT- that you are the exception rather than the rule?

I had a J&H cat n dog (iirc), it was my first new big purchase, wouldn't go back.

It's good to see OP using better materials, lets hope they dont have the woes other brands have had.

I'm not sure event is the go when the materials are thicker.. from what ive seen with other event jackets all the heavier patches are back to gore like breathlessness..

Strange Nuts but all bar one person that went light weight now considers heavy weight proper length the go for off track winter walking in Tassi but people are free to see the world as they wish and believe that they are normal. All depends where you walk the most. On the OLT light weight gear is ok but off track? Having a team member heading for hypothermia as their pants shredded coming down from a snow covered mountain range makes an impression. Curious Nut saw a lot of bare backs when people were pitching a tent on snow in a howling gale and they were wearing waterproof pants. Maybe not the Harry Highpants model that you recommend, or do you have a particular style for pitching a tent?

As for breath-ability think more to do with the mind than reality. In my experience eVent in all weights is over hyped if the claim that is better than Gore-tex. Both are vastly better than jacket or pants made of most other stuff. The problem with more than a few jackets and pants is poor DWR. This is a fact caused by the traditional DWR process now being considered no longer environmentally friendly. My brand new MD Stratus on day one stopped beading yet my old environmentally unfriendly PP Vista took years before the water stop beading. I believe that the manufacturers are getting better at DWR under the new processes but tough luck to the people that brought their first attempts. My understanding is the face material is important for a DWR to take under the new processes.

Nuts as you stroll along the OLT in brilliant summer weather think of the rest that wander in winter on paths less trodden, and yes I suppose they must appear exceptional

Cheers

[wayno]

i think the dwr chemicals that work best are the most toxic, dont break down easily, ie half life of ten thousand years.....
the eco friendly ones tend to break down faster.... ie half life of a month or two...

[Nuts]

Haha, I'm guessing that group look a tad brough beaten as well.

My event jacket has a drawstring that lands at the base of the cheek, i really don't know what your on about there

Washed the RAB jackets countless times now- Nikwax re-treatment has worked fine so far. Not as good as new but acceptable.

Sorry if you will find this particularly short winded, it is so at the expense of repetition. I wouldn't bother but (to be blunt) you seem to approach some subjects with polemic styled 'decrees' half the time it seems your incidents leading up to these just need a little more 'carefulness', less fussiness... something! (i'm sure others have noticed.. may be just me..)

ps.. not so much recently i'll admit... I did wear the short jackets for a couple of guided seasons and a few longer more difficult and off-track walks.. regardless- i find is just funny that you have no idea where or when i have walked, i don't recall you ever asking?

[norts]

Coming from the other side, I used to use a knee length jacket but now use a shorter one. With the knee length I found water use to come up the inside of the coat and wet my pants up to thigh height, so I still had to use a w/proof pants. Extra weight for no benefit.
My go to coat now is the Montane Superfly, with w/proof pants which are always pulled up "Harry high pants" style, I never get a wet bum from "builders bum"
Just had 6 days on the OLT in snow and never had a wet bum from my pants being too low and my jacket too high.

Roger

[wayno]

theres always bib pants

[Ent]

ps.. not so much recently i'll admit... I did wear the short jackets for a couple of guided seasons and a few longer more difficult and off-track walks.. regardless- i find is just funny that you have no idea where or when i have walked, i don't recall you ever asking?

Hi Nuts

I am aware of some of your walks and even tried to follow you on Spot but it do not move something about user issue I think You might be surprised where we head and the conditions that we head out in as well. You have a definitive view of the world that is rather different to mine. Fine, it would be a boring place if we all thought alike.

But your comments on being definitive equally apply to your world view. I spent a fortune on light weight gear and personally found most rather a failure when the going gets tough but as mentioned it performs for others. I would hardly think a jacket delaminating around the shoulder straps a issue of carelessness but you might. One thing with gear is some people never accept that their pet choices do not work or have issues and seek to find fault in how people experience this use their pets. I saw two people with bare backs bending over putting in snow pegs this weekend and no amount of draw strings would solve this problem unless the fabric magically stretched. This is an issue that I did not suffer from in my coat. Another person with their brand new jacket posted on Facebook that the shortness of the jacket was an issue. I suppose I should ignore this as it is contra to your world view?

I watch and learn and talk to other people about what works for them. It is amazing what people think they do compared to what they do. I saw a person walk nearly a whole day without the waist belt done up on their pack only to have them claim it was only undone for a short time. Other swear by walking poles but generally carry them more than use them. Then I see people use them all the time and appreciate the advantages that they bring, along with the hassles.

I never assume that I must be always right and highjack a thread about longer coats with a view that shorter and lighter is better. By or means push your world view but frankly many will not be convinced that short jackets and set back length packs are for them in order to worship at the alter of lightness.

As for DWR I write what I experienced with my brand new Mountain Design Jacket which uses the Gore-tex Performance shell. The DWR one day out it stopped beading. This was straight after removing the tags claiming how great it is. I as mentioned I have had many years of good use from my PP Vista Gore-tex jacket. As Wayno writes the older processes of DWR worked a treat but was not good for the environment in manufacture. I am very aware of the trouble One Planet has gone to to research the DWR issue and it is not the simplistic view that it is the eVent or Gore-tex membrane but the outer coating material used and the DWR process that the material has under gone as the real decider if something has a chance of working.

I have eVent jackets and pants along with Gore-tex one and frankly if a person can in the real world tell the difference then they are more aware of breathability than I. No jacket leaves me the impression that I am total dry after walking up a steep climb. Heck, I am damp with sweat without a jacket. I occasionally wear cheaper outershell or different materials and find that there is a huge difference as it is like wearing a plastic bag. To me the jacket design and the DWR performance plus longevity governs my choice rather eVent versus Gore-tex. On the last walk I gave a younger walker my eVent Montane jacket and he was amazed how much better it was. On other walks he took every chance to remove his other jacket while on the last one it stayed on. So observation confirms his comments.

I am amazed at the amount of gear that I have brought along with other people and how much has not worked. Something as simple as Icetrekkers. I brought the correct size and they fell off so I brought the next size down and they stayed on longer but still lost one. A simple loop securing them to the boot would at least mean that you are aware when it comes lose.

Many "old hands" told me never to wash Gore-tex nor down sleeping bags. Strangely all manufacturers recommend the opposite so I am not always enamored by "experience old hands" world views. I find it quaint some people comments on GPS compared to what the civil aviation authority would think if a commercial airline did not equip their planes with modern electronic navigation devices. I think something along the lines of criminal negligence case would be the result. I always where practical attempted to follow the manufacturers instructions so this means if something does not perform then it is the product not my treatment of it.

Sorry Nuts if my comments do not met your world view and appear definitive. Maybe rather than "highjacketing" a thread why not start you own on what you like and why?

Cheers

[Nuts]

Ok, it wasn't really 'my world view' simply saying that the alternative works as well.

No de-lammination, correctly sized and with a drawstring in the right place- no need for a wet butt.

I wont push it, it wasn't really about what I demand is best, who I would infer as a fashion victim.. anything like that... By the same token it wasn't about your personal opinion on rain gear either (ie its not exactly sounding 'long', it's not gore and it will no doubt need a DWR coating so..)

[wayno]

theres short length shells and short length shells, some of it is literally cut for walking the dog and not much else... but some of it is actually cut to cope with the dynamics of body motion when hiking climbing and camping... as noted here you can see a big difference in how the different designed garments can function when trying to function on a multi day walk...

[Joomy]

Try this weekend four people head out. Three wear bum freezer jackets and one has a more traditional jacket. Up at 1400 metres gale force winds and driving rain on snow. All got home but three noticed when putting up tents or face in snow falls their bum freezer jackets rode up over their wet weather pants and the wind and rain was not much fun. The "proper" length jacket was a joy and frankly in the mentioned conditions the few hundred grams was well worth it.

It also rubs me the wrong way the way people make claims about what is the proper gear for other people. I for one find knee length jackets to be unnecessary and restrictive. My jacket is crotch length in the front and covers my bum in the back. No matter how I bend it never creeps up to expose my back. Works great for me and its lighter and allows me to climb and scramble.

[sthughes]

My short Mammut jacket covers by butt and the over pants/jacket gap quite well and has been okay on several walks. Recently it was brilliant in 7 days of rain on the OT in June. But on the weekend in probably 75km/h winds with rain I found it a bit frustrating that when taking down tents if I bent forwards with by back to the wind the drop tail simply blew up and welcomed the cool rain onto my back. It has a draw cord around the hem which helps a little, but it still blew up, and then the draw cord stopped it dropping down again!
I don't mind short jackets, but apart from weighing less, I can't think of anything they do better than a well designed longer jacket.

[Nuts]

Nah it's mainly just the thing of being able to sit on the $100 pants rather than the tail of the jacket. I'm not a gram counter but the couple of 00 g's is just one of many things. My hem cord follows the hem, ie cups the buttocks : )

Perhaps closer to the topic, that weight- that will be a light weight jacket especially given that bit of extra length, could disappoint some? Event pants are ok, ive found the thighs get a bit waterlogged (not leaky, just damp in outside layer & cold). I'm thinking they get a bit oily in my case. They will need to be relatively cheap, other brands can be had for $100/120 and they will likely get ripped at some stage no matter how heavy.

If they are built in Au that would be a selling point for me and i wish them luck. Don't get me wrong, i'm hoping for good things, especially good to see OP considering modern materials .. I wonder if they have had their hands on crux pack yet..

[wayno]

i wonder how many garment makers go to event because they dont like gore tex's attitude
if you want to sell gore tex gear then you have to sign a deal with gore tex stating that your top of the line storm shell must be a gore tex shell and no other fabric,,
anyone wanting to make event garments has been cut off from supply by gore tex completely.
if you dont like your supplier dictating to you waht you can and cant do with your marketing then you have to make a plack and white decision and use another fabric altogether.