ACCC investigates aggreements to not ship to Aus

[blacksheep]

Blacksheep,
I couldn't disagree with you more wholeheartedly. In a nutshell: companies are not charities.

What did I say that you disagree with whole heartedly sorry?

[slparker]

"It's not supporting local manufacturers that consumers need focus on, its how their greater spending activity supports the total economy. I've wondered why many people don't ask what their purchasing supports, how profits are spent, what is the bigger picture.."

"And think of all the jobs that would be created...in um...postal delivery?"

This seems to impugn the consumer because what your questions entails:
purchasers who shop online are unsupportive of (something) presumably australian retailers, profits are spent (where) presumably overseas and the bigger picture is presumably the australian economy suffers.
I see this differently, I see that the australian economy does not suffer if retail outdoors shop disappears...it's a niche market. As to the retail economy... well you mean like the tulip crash in holland? That's what happens when protected markets lose their protection-the consumer wins and retailers sure better find other ways to sell.
Isee that profits disappearing 'overseas' is already happening (and morally what is the problem? vietnamese and chinese textile workers have to eat too), and what does purchasing support..in the end it supports a chain of people who are in a business: selling a product for profit.

There are no reasonable claims that can be made morally about consumers purchasing a product online rather than locally. The only moral claim that is sensible is if someone is harmed by virtue of the purchase. Since the product is the same but the retail agency is different I don't see how this entails any different moral problems.

I reject utterly any claim that consumers are at all responsible for shops lying empty on chapel street. The responsibility lies with the retailer. The cause is consumers rightly choosing to spend wisely. What reasonable argument is there to support an uncompetitive retail model I wonder?
As to the comment about postal workers... well they have to eat too - are you suggesting that outdoor retail workers are more deserving of my money ?

The days of buying $700 goretex jackets are now over.... you can blame the consumer for being morally deficient if you like, but as I've asserted, the responsibility for your business is not the consumer's.
On a personal note I bought a macpac tent in Canberra this year in a sale because my old one died after 20 years of srvice. I purchased it because my old tent was so good. I purchased it even though the salesperson was arrogant and dismissive. I purchased it even though the company is foreign(NZ) and the tents are made in a factory in china with what sort of OH&S policy?. Would I make the same purchase again? Do I owe canberra macpac a living? The arguments for it are getting less convincing over time....

[wayno]

its hard for individuals to buy locally when they can't afford what they want to buy
new zealand removed it's tarrifs years ago and it all but destroyed local indutries like the clothing trade, the reality is the majority of the population will go for the better deal and won't spend more to keep local people in business, so if the govt won't maintain tarrifs the reality is little can stop the demise of industries that arent competitive internationally....
its mainly the less educated people who suffered by loosing their jobs, as one economist said the value of unskilled labour in the job market is nil.... you have to look to the future and where the jobs are going to be in the future and try and upskill to obtain one of those jobs or you'll be left out of work.....
i dont like that scenario at all, but at some point it helps to be realistic to work out where to go in your future.... just like in bushwalking you have to make hard decisions sometimes for the sake of survival......

[blacksheep]

I have no argument with most of what you have written, nor did I propose views in conflict. I was offering at first some insight as to why some brands choose to protect business partners who have put their time, money, effort into overseas markets.

I also thought aloud that perhaps we don't all consider the externalities of our choices. I maintain that consumer behaviour is directly related to low occupancy in commercial rental, although I never insinuated the retail business doesn't share the blame. I simply spoke to what is happening and the downstream effect of this. I agree with other posts that change is both inevitable, and also I see it as exciting...but I do wonder where new jobs are created in this new landscape ( I have nothing against posties, or most couriers either by the way...)

I am not talking about the outdoor retail sector in my comments. I truly miss book shops, I like music stores. I think the changes in e-tailing will take down a few more types soon too..

Slparker, I am sorry that my voice is heard as a business owner with an agenda by you. My comments are opinions developed many years beforehand, perhaps if you read them without prejudice you will see I am not pushing a barrow but giving an opinion of a bigger picture we all face.

Sorry you got bad service, I would like to know more if you'd care to send some details to [email protected] I would appreciate it.
Cheers.

[wayno]

yeah i'd love to be able to justify buying at shops all the time, but unfortunately thats not the way anymore....

[nq111]

"It's not supporting local manufacturers that consumers need focus on, its how their greater spending activity supports the total economy. I've wondered why many people don't ask what their purchasing supports, how profits are spent, what is the bigger picture.."

Yeah - frankly that line of thinking would still have us all in caves for fear of putting the hunters and the gatherers out of work.

I don't think the retail industry is making dodgy profits or anything - just times change and businesses come and go as a result. Consumer wins

[wayno]

people have left the caves? hell when did this happen,? no one tells me anything

[walkinTas]

I have no argument with most of what you have written, nor did I propose views in conflict. I was offering at first some insight as to why some brands choose to protect business partners who have put their time, money, effort into overseas markets. ... I am not talking about the outdoor retail sector in my comments. I truly miss book shops, I like music stores. I think the changes in e-tailing will take down a few more types soon too..

As a person who is very interested in Information Technology and the future it promises, I have been very disappointed with the response by the Australian retail section to e-trading. This response was somewhat typified by Gerry Harvey, first complaining loudly about unfair competition and then belatedly making an all out effort to join the online market place.

I don't buy overseas as a preference. I do buy online as a preference. If I can't buy online locally, I will buy overseas.

When I google for a product I often include site:au at the end of my search. However, I am often dismayed at the lack of Australian retail presence in the online shopping market. And Tasmanian online retail presence is almost non existent. Rather than wholesalers prohibiting sales, I would like a model where retailers and wholesalers collaborated through a single website. Where a sale is made online, the product shipped to the local retailer, and the local retailer delivers the product and service to the customer. If the local retailer already holds the product, then delivery would be immediate and the shipment from the wholesaler would just be a replacement (which could be cancelled if the retail didn't want it). If the product has to be shipped in order to be supplied, give me the option to add my item to the next wholesale shipment to the retailer - thus providing significant savings on shipping costs. If I want the product quickly and its a single shipping, then ship directly to me rather than the retailer (actually had this happen on a recent purchase - I bought off the retailer, but the wholesaler shipped directly to me).

I wish to be able to make the purchase online. Supplying me with a phone number and street address with the hope I will visit the local store, will not get you a sale - I'll just continue to google. (Any wholesaler who has an online site that does not include and online shop - they just list the local retailers addresses - are missing out big time on sales). I understand that some wholesalers don't sell directly to the consumer because they need to work with and protect the established retail network. Also, every single retail outlet with a separate website could be expensive, confusing and just a little silly. So retailers and wholesalers need to work together to secure the online sale and deliver the product.

Like you Cam, I miss book shops and music shops and simply just browsing. What I don't miss is standing in line waiting to be served by someone who knows nothing more than I know about the product. I don't think shopping centres are dead, yet, but I do think they are facing big challenges. Again, Retailers in larger shopping centres could and should co-operate to provide a single online shopping experience and give the customer the option to pickup or pay a delivery fee.

Pizza shops have already pioneered these ideas. One phone number, one online presence, you place your order and you pickup locally or it's delivered. Ok, I won't wait long for my pizza, but when ordering outdoor gear I expect to have to wait for delivery - long enough for the wholesaler to supply the closest local retailer if necessary and for that retailer to supply me. And as I said above, if the product is already held locally there won't be a wait. Anyway, I'm not pretending I have THE answer, this is just food for thought! (No, not the pizza)

I don't want to see society completely lose the local retail sector. I think maybe its time Retailers and Wholesalers both worked together to find a 21st sales model that will work for the 21st century consumer. One where the customer can buy online but can also benefit from local pickup or local delivery, and local services (including returns and warranty) would be nice.

[wayno]

some people just arent forward thinking in business , they arent interested in changing in a changing world, some places you'll find businesses are progressive with taking opportunities and others they arent, i look around new zealand and in some locations businesses have done everything possible to maximise business opportunities to provide the experience the tourists want, and other places that still have massive no's of tourists passing through do virtually nothing to try and grab business from tourists.... possibly the more forward thinking people congregate in certain places, birds of a feather flock together and other places the more conservative people are happy staying where they are doing what they do and then one day find they can't make a living doing what they've been doing anymore,
i'm in my fourties and i've seen parts of nz change massively since i was a kid, nz was very backward thinking and conservative most places when i was young. no weekend shopping, cafes were juste tearooms that sold flat whites scones and sandwiches, there wasnt a lot of innovation going on except in a few isolated places...
one person described aucland as a graveyard with traffic lights on the weekend.
but people coming back from overseas started to change things in some geographical areas. the rest of nz scorned auckland for engaging overseas trends in catering.
i'm not saying everyone should change and engage the latest trends but to totally ignore them isnt necessarily the answer, they might need to try and adapt ideas to suit their situation

[Moondog55]

To walkin Tas.
Nicely written.
Summarised some of my thoughts too.
But one of the main reasons I would still prefer to actually shop in a retail store is "FIT" until on-line sellers develop a realistic body model the only way to tell if a product is going to be comfortable is to try it on.
I have to say that after 40 years of looking I haven't found one garment that really fits well and that will provide a measure of wear resistance and/or weather protection that I feel is commensurate with its price although the latest USA military clothing with its very large size range and multi fittings with-in each size range comes the closest
I'm an Extra Large Tall or Extra Tall, Very little off the shelf fits as well as I expect, so retail stores have a very large place in my shopping.
I wait expectantly for on-line bespoke manufacturing with short lead-times and reasonable cost.
I still object to paying twice the price here in OZ tho, although I have and probably will do again and whinge about it here.

[walkinTas]

...one of the main reasons I would still prefer to actually shop in a retail store is "FIT" until on-line sellers develop a realistic body model the only way to tell if a product is going to be comfortable is to try it on.

I agree. That's the main reason I don't buy shoes and boots online. Shopping online does have its disadvantages - you can see it, you can check out the quality, you can't try it on, and it costs to return it.

I read recently that some retailers are considering charging customers who wish to try clothing on for size. They claim that many customers are coming to stores, trying on the clothing, then going home and buying it online. Seems like way too much trouble to me, and rather defeats the purpose. I buy on line to avoid the hassles of going shopping. I go shopping to avoid the hassles of buying online.

[wayno]

depends, if you're buying boots and you've had that model or at least that product before then you've got a reasonable chance of getting the right sizing,
if i'm trying something on in a shop I'll usually buy from the shop than online, but if i have a garment by a particular company and want something similar then i'll go and get it online since i have a reasonable idea of how it fits.
actually i tell a lie, once i went and tried something on at the north face shop and bought it online overseas. i think the north face gear is one of the bigger rip offs around, even their prices overseas are pretty steep, here they are extortionate.....

[Marwood]

Here's an example: last night I was looking for the price of the Tool Logic "Light My Fire" SL3 combination knife, fire steel, and whistle. Online price in the US (Amazon) $US19.31 reduced from "list price" of $US38.95. They won't ship to Aus but I have my ways... Online price from an outdoor site here in Aus $AUD79.50. Not sure of the price in local bricks and mortar stores.

So here's my question: how much more than overseas price are you prepared to pay - if anything - to buy locally from a bricks and mortar store or from a local online vendor, compared to the price you'd pay including shipping from overseas, e.g. from the US of A? There seems to be an assumption from retailers or vendors here that charging double the overseas list price is not unreasonable, but I find I baulk at paying more than 20-25% higher prices locally these days. What do the rest of you think?

[Moondog55]

The only trouble Wayno is that makers are continually mucking about with their products and patterns, changing them, usually not for the better.
To quote the old saw
"You know it was good because they stopped making it."
There is no telling from one season to the next what pattern and / or sizing is actually being used.

[Moondog55]

I object in principle to paying any more than USA "list price" for USA products, ditto for other countries where we have parity or a close approximation based on average exchange rates

[Rob A]

I am a bit confused. Why should a manufacturer not be allowed to decide how his product is sold?

[slparker]

Wayno,
Excellent points you make. Tassy was like that when I grew up there... we used to actually resent tourists when I was young. I've been to NZ twice and I have to say I've had consistently excellent trips both in terms of outdoor experiences and touristy stuff as well. The coffee is consistently excellent (and strong) and it has a vibrant dining and drink culture. I wAs expecting 'once were warriors, but got funky and tasteful instead.
If an entire country can get off its *&%$#! and provide cultural change to respond to an emerging market why can't we? Why don't the shops who charge money to try on garments/shoes have an online ordering system so you can order from that very shop? Talk about a missed opportunity..... You could try on a pair of scarpas at Joe's Honest Outdoors Vendors and pay market price for the boot ($400) if you really, really needed it straight away or get it in a week from Europe by ordering it online and paying at that shop ($250 on Amazon by the way). Or perhaps we could do away with the middleman and the shop could buy it from the manufacturer and pass the saving on to the consumer.
Or the shop could keep its outdated sales model and become another empty shell in a year's time. I know the actual situation is very complex but it appears to me that distributors are killing the retail shops. I have sympathy for store owners...I have friends in the cycling industry who are forced to sell cycling bits for up to twice the online price... they could buy the item online for less then what the distributors sells wholesale..... Consequently business is lost. But.... I love cycling not the cycling retail industry and i will shop online even though my local bike shop misses the money... if I ever feel bad about this I give more money to the Smith Family... I don't want to sound conceited but I can tell the difference between a charity and a business.

[wayno]

the problem with teh shops is because of a lot of distributors have a monipoly to sell a particular brand in a country, they are having to sell the gear sold to them through distributors only, , you can't get direct from the line shops or manufacturer if you wanted to, the online shops arent supposed to ship to countries whre distributors have a monopoly, you have to find a workaround, ie get a friend in teh country of the online shop to get the product for you or use a mail forwarding company as long as it hasnt already been black listed by the online shop...., you should use a forwarding company that gives a "suite" makes the online shops less likely to recognise it as a forwarding company

[climberman]

And think of all the jobs that would be created...in um...postal delivery?

Or social media marketing, or media, or web design, or web support, or niche product production, or, or, or, or....

Consumers, frankly, don't give a fig. Supply chain worries, market support, bricks and mortar rent, GST, workcover fees, whatever, are and never will be a concern to the majority of shoppers for the majority of purchases. The web has further democratised consuming, and like water finding the lowest point, niches and loops are found and exploited.

Pure price is not the full equation for all the market but it is a significant part of the equation for most of the market. Service and product differentiation are the other main parts to the equation. Your own presence here blacksheep is testamount to that - you offer insight to product, direct consumer-manufacturer relationship, basic advertising, etc. People love a relationship even as consumers, and relationships matter.

Live with it or die with it.

The consumer will win out.

[climberman]

http://delimiter.com.au/2012/05/21/the- ... rk-newton/

from a post here: http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausno ... 13008.html

To quote:


v > As an ISP, I don't care if you send a resume or a photo of your kid. I do
> care about existing business models and how I can continue to make money.

But your customers don't care about that. And they've been enabled
with technology that lets them bypass you if they don't like your
price.

Aside from everything else, the Internet is a marvellously capable
gatekeeper destruction machine. Doesn't matter what realm you're
talking about, the Internet takes the power previously enjoyed
by gatekeepers, devolves it to end users, and poses the question,
"Now what...?"

And..

"You're emotionally invested in your business model because it's
yours. Your customers aren't. They don't care if you have an
adequate margin."

[photohiker]

Well said climberman. A lot of truth in those quotes.

[wildbluesea]

I have been buying from overseas for many years. However, I believe in buying locally, and don't mind paying a little bit more to help our local retailers and for the added benefit of after sales support etc. But in many cases the extra amount is not just a little bit more - we regularly pay a ridiculous amount to for the privilege of buying locally. As an example, a couple of years ago I tried to purchases Adobe CS4 online from the states, where it was on special for four hundred odd dollars. But, as I was checking out, I input my address and was redirected to the Adobe Australian site, which updated the total to sixteen hundred odd dollars! What the X#@*! Long story short; took me ages until I found a company that, for one reason or another, would ship to Oz for $522 including postage. Afterwards, I sent an email to adobe U.S. re the matter and they explained that it costs them a lot of money to set up a distribution outlet in Oz, for such a small user base, so the price is adjusted accordingly. As a customer, I say in that case, close the oz distribution centre and just let us buy direct from the U.S. for a third of the price! Whether we like it or not, we now live in a global market. Why does virtually everything cost less overseas? I know some of you think we should be stoic and buy from oz to support our oz businesses, but my reply is, then it should be a two way street. The majority of our clothing companies etc have their products produced overseas, where it is cheaper (so much for them supporting oz workers) so it is only fair that I have the choice of purchasing oversees where I too can buy at far cheaper prices! What is good for the goose is good for the gander!

[Dale]

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out in the next few years. Local retailers will need to factor OS online stores as significant competitors and figure out how to deal with them, hoping people buy from you is not a formula for success. Or as the strategy consultant Gary Hamel says "if customer ignorance is a profit center for you, you're in trouble."

[flyinglion2000]

Yep, I think the writing is on the wall.. er on the e-wall, for bricks and mortar retailers. The gate has been open a while now and the horses are all still bolting thru. Its yesterdays news really.

The next BIG question is what does this mean for manufacturers? The points above concerning how local distributors and retailers are being undercut or done away with by onine retailing will come to apply to manufacturers as well. Those manufacturers who can cross borders and handle warranty/service/returns/exchanges and local regulatory/approval issues and communicate with their market (ie sell) are very likley to experience a market share greater than a competitor who does not. Price and service will be the drivers of this change to the consumer merchandise delivery model and high cost models will be the first to die quickly.

So existing manufacturers who have old style independent arm's length distributorships in each country or region may have to start looking at cutting over to a new direct dealing model or face increased competition from competing product manufacturers who beat them to it. IMO they will have to as I believe there are a lot of costs that are being and still more that can be cut out of the product supply chain. He who cuts most first and serves will win.

Good luck Macpac et al but good planning and research might be more beneficial.

ps I am not so sure the consurmer will win out ultimatley - the game never ends. I think having just the best quality / performing product will NOT make a manufacturer immune from annihilation - you have to deliver to the consumer the whole package - marketing, technical basis, demonstrated product acceptance and consumer/peer approval, warranty, service - the whole enchilada. Consumers may now be savvy, but I don't think we are brilliant.. yet!

[Ent]

Interesting read.

The first thing is the ACCC can only act in Australia so any deal that happens off shore they cannot act unless it is deemed to have been done in Australia. In fact travelling Australian were once only governed by the laws of the land they were in. This has changed with child protection laws applying to Australian citizens regardless of the law of another country. Maybe restraint of trade rules will apply to travelling business people but not at the moment. But then I am not a lawyer and the above is not legal advice.

Secondly, our distributors here are watching and whinging. Post that you can get Therma-rest, MSR or any Cascade Design product from X USA online shop and watch those places no longer ship the item to Australia. In fact, I being me, have engaged in a few “debates” with some big names and even the big names are puzzled by the mark-ups demanded in Australia. The USA online shops know that people like me are cancelling $500 plus orders if they refuse to ship an item rather than modifying the order. They are searching long and hard for alternative products. I do not bother with some for the reason it is nothing worse than constructing an order to balance freight cost to item cost and then find X and Y are not allowed to be shipped to Australia.

Thirdly, businesses are not charities. Why should I as a consumer subsidies businesses? With tariffs of the 50’s to 80’s the general result was companies did not modernise and got lazy. Then with the wind back of tariffs huge impact was had but the smart companies survived and prospered.

Fourthly, business models change. Prior the industrial revolution it was trade based models then replaced by industrial model. The only surprise it has taken so long for retail to change. It started with the 19th century catalogues but died out as shonks moved in. The internet has reignited this model as suspect firms are soon quickly identified. Category killers stores have come but people are now swinging to specialist firms. Get the niche right and you do well. Get it wrong and natural selection will take over.

Fifth, the big losers in the change from centralised retail shops to mail order distribution is old money landlords not the businesses themselves. We still will buy stuff so people will still need to sell it. Means shop assistants are being replaced by web designers. Businesses no longer need to be in certain retail positions so the ability for landlords to demand rents based on turnover and profit are weakening. A shop in the Quadrant in Launceston once had a rent twenty to hundred times compared to one a hundred metre away.

Six, my economic hero Keynes made a personal fortune by buying and selling on markets that were out of whack. Why should an item in Europe by dearer than Australia, with NZ cheaper and the USA cheapest? What is happening is pricing knowledge is now readily available. I have no intention of buying my car tyres from the USA but when I found out that brand X was twice the USA price while brand Y was only twenty percent dearer I went for brand Y even though it was dearer than X. The USA reviews rated Y better but not worth the price but in Australia as the price difference between it and X was very small so it meant brand Y was a better buy, in Australia. Bet Dunlop never thought someone would use the internet to do that!

Seven, the GST argument is hogwash. I am happy to pay the GST to buy an item locally. What the likes of Harvey Norman want is you having to pay a customs agent princely sums to clear the goods not the extra 10%. More and more items I buy from local distributors as their pricings is only 10% more than USA and shipping cheaper.

Eight, things can have unexpected results. Prior to containerisation shipping stuff was rather hard. Little did the USA know than when supporting containerisation that they had given the Japanese the ability to move a huge array of items safely, quickly and cheaply. It is argued that it was containerisation that unleased the Asian tigers on USA businesses.

All we are seeing is evolution in the business model now applying to retail. In fact many good things are coming from it. I can get a set of boots for my size 49 feet that would have in the past been special order with months of delay and higher cost. If you are UL or traditional in your gear choice you have huge options rather than a narrow subset of products that appeal to a professional buyer.

Frankly, specialist stores will survive and even thrive as the inner city rents collapse as this is a major business cost to them. We consumers are starting to understand that products are comparatively cheap but experience is king. The reality is even now we pay almost as much for coffee as snack where in the past coffee was probably quarter of the cost of snack. We are prepared to pay a premium for quality. We are also getting better at breaking the link between price and real quality.

The retail business model is changing and while it will be hard for the dinosaurs that do not adapt the result is more choice, cheaper prices, and better service. Specialist stores are starting to return. The likes of Passion 8 will grow replacing category killers that rely on price being their main tool. We are seeing old school tactics of price high and discount for sales reaching stupid proportions. We have 50% of 50% sales with even 70% off stocked lines! Now if the stock was old or obsolete I could understand but if it applies to the whole store?

Go for it I say to the ACCC, long overdue.

Cheers

[slparker]

Continuing this old thread... I went into an outdoor shop last week to buy a travel pack for and overseas trip. I wanted a one planet 40 l pack, both to support a local manufacturer and because they look the biz. The shop didn't stock the model and were highly resistant to getting one in for me to look at befor epurchasing! What the?
Luckily I don't live that far from Melbourne and I can drop into the op factory. What if I lived in kalgoorlie, or Townsville? For half the price I can get an osprey pack online.....and for less than half the hassle. Why bother with the local product?

If OP want to survive perhaps they could consider selling online, with a good return policy....

[Snowzone]

If OP want to survive perhaps they could consider selling online, with a good return policy....

I believe OP do have a good returns policy. They were more than happy to send two similar packs to a store in country Victoria for the buyer to look at and purchase whichever pack suited his needs better and have the other pack returned. The store however was not that keen on the idea. I think OP are sometimes let down by the retailers they have supplying their goods.

[corvus]

Continuing this old thread... I went into an outdoor shop last week to buy a travel pack for and overseas trip. I wanted a one planet 40 l pack, both to support a local manufacturer and because they look the biz. The shop didn't stock the model and were highly resistant to getting one in for me to look at befor epurchasing! What the?
Luckily I don't live that far from Melbourne and I can drop into the op factory. What if I lived in kalgoorlie, or Townsville? For half the price I can get an osprey pack online.....and for less than half the hassle. Why bother with the local product?

If OP want to survive perhaps they could consider selling online, with a good return policy....

Just a thought slparker,
You live outside a major metro area and go to your local outdoor shop to purchase what I would consider to be a very low volume seller and wonder why they did not buy one in so you could look at and try it dont know how you earn your wages but I suspect it is not on a perhaps basis yet you would buy untried on line from overseas as you said What the?
corvus

[Nuts]

How much to pay? That is the question. Marketing gurus would suggest that so long as you are happy with your purchase then the sale has been a success and the price is 'right'.

I also buy gear online, the quality gear is at a similar price to what we all paid locally 15-20yrs ago. Meh, everyone I knew had a pack and tent of sorts. Now we 'all' have 2 or 3, a model for each season even. Hear of something lighter, a nicer colour. Meanwhile though, we are actually buying Less materials for our $, some of the ultra light gear looks ironically basic..

Anyhow..I'm sure theres some sort of biblical reference to avarice to suit? Most of the evolution iv'e seen in gear isn't a Huge' improvement despite the blurb. If it was just weight, we could have cut something off (of course there goes the resale value ) or left it behind, but now don't need to think twice about just buying another. Surely all the waste can't be good, I imagine those least concerned in loosing local retail to have a community funded job, guess Carbon Tax should cover the increasing excess .. lol.. Theres a good future for the kids in mining but I get the feeling we'll all need our turn at austerity.

The web has made life So much easier. Simpler, no. Better? who really knows? I read somewhere, someone scoffing about the net- let them do so many things. 'All the things I never Really needed..'

[corvus]

Hey Nuts!!
What did you just say in understandable speak:?
corvus