Snake Bite

[wello]

There's quite a few posts on this site mentioning close encounters with snakes while bushwalking. We met up with a juvenile tiger snake ourselves last week on Ben Lomond, but only Beck saw him after I walked straight past in the scrub.

It does raise the question of what to do if you get bitten a few days walk from the nearest road. Standard first aid talks about imobilising the limb, pressure bandage but no tourniquet these days, and no cutting the bite or anything like that. The next step is getting medical attention asap. And that's the problem if you're a long way out in the bush.

So has anyone got a plan?? Carrying an EPIRB is probably to obvious one, but any other ideas??

Wello

[BarryJ]

Most importantly, the victim should stay put. They should not try to walk out. Any exertion will only pump the toxins throughout their body. They have more chance of survival if they remain stationary and get medical help to come to them. Other members of the party should go for help while someone remains with the victim. If walking alone, a PLB is a necessity.

Having said that, if you are wearing gaiters (or even just long trousers) the chances of getting bitten on the legs is remote.

[the_camera_poser]

I met a snake expert at Healesville Sanctuary who had been bitten several times by various snokes, notably an Inland Taipan, which is the deadliest land snake and 10 times more venemous than an Eastern Brown. He wrapped the bitten limb (bite was on his hand), but didn't go to the hospital, as he felt no symptoms of having been envenomed. Snakes will often dry bite, and a lot of folks believe that the majority of bites go unnoticed ("What was that- a stick???")

Anyhow, he kept his arm bound for the night, went home, went to sleep, and when he woke up decided he could take the bandages off. Within an hour he was in the ER, almost dead.

The moral of this story is that with proper management, you'll be right.

The bit about the gaiters, or long pants, is right on. Elapids, which all deadly Aussie snakes are, have short little fangs, and these fangs have far less penetrating power than vipers such as rattlesnakes. Most Aussie snakes can't effectively bite through denim, whereas American snake boots, for example, are made of kevlar, and will deflect a .22 round, as this is the amount of penetrating power a rattlesnake has. On the other hand, rattlesnakes are no where ever rmeotely as poisonous as Tigers, Browns and Taipans, or even Copperheads, not to mention the Inland Taipan.

I noticed that Paddy Palin sells a snake bite kit for around $30- I'd be getting one of these if you're going remote, and at least be aware of how to treat a snake bite wound, as they are tremendously dangerous. In the grand scheme of things tohugh, I think hypothermia would be a far greater risk.

[BarryJ]

To put the whole snake bite issue into perspective, look at the annual road accident statistics for Tasmania and then look at the annual snake bite statistics. You are much more likely to be a road accident victim than a snake bite victim.

[sirius Tas]

Treatment of snake bite involves bandaging the whole limb..i.e. below and above the bite....then immobilize. From what I've seen...38 years of working and bush walking...the chances of getting bit are so slim..reckon a lightning strike would be more likely and more lethal as well. From what I've read...and own experience...if you keep clear and basically ignore...the snake will gladly go on its way...after all we're far bigger and not a likely meal. As the fangs are hollow(Tiger anyway)...if wearing trousers and gaiters hardly any poison will get injected.
As BarryJ said....the journey to and from your walk is by far the most concern...lightning possibly next...LOL.
Cheers...sT

[the_camera_poser]

Yeah- Tassie's roads pose a heck of a lot more threat to uhman life than a whole barrel of pissed of tiger snakes! You should have seen the car in the ditch on the way into Cradle this arvo- someone's going to have a nasty headache when they get out of the hospital!

[flyfisher]

Although snakes are always a bit of a worry ,as a fisherma- I havemade the aquaintance of many and have never been struck at in spite of almost stepping on a few.
This doesn't mean that I have become complacent about them, but I won't let them keep me out of the bush.
Much more likely to be a problem due to their sneaky ways ,are leaches, which although not dangerous are still a pest if they attach in the wrong place.
My experience of snakes is to keep watch and just give them a bit of time and space to move off.If they stand up and bark or cough , then a wider berth is best.
Quite a few could have bitten me when watching water (for trout)instead of where feet were going,but seemed happy to take off quickly.
Maybe they can tell if your attitude is agressive as can plovers and (Ithink) jack jumpers.

FF

[Earthling]

Snake bite is something that can and does happen to people.
As a snake breeder/keeper I would recomend go and do a First Aid Course which will not only teach you what to do in a snake bite scenrio, but also many other life threatening situations which we are more likely to come across in the time of our lives(heart attack, cuts, hypothermia, asthma etc).
One person quoted car statistics to alleviate snake bite concern. I like to use horses, bees are also good.
On average less then 2 people a year die in Australia from venomous snake bites.
On average 20 people a year die in Australia from horse related accidents.
On average 3 people a year die in Australia from an exotic introduced venomous animal from Europe....the honeybee. Bees in Australia kill even more humans then snakes!

I read with interest camera posers piece on the 'snake expert'. Handling a snake bite as he did means he then was NO snake expert. Hopefully he has remedied that with the position he now holds.

Queensland Ambulance currently advises:
1. Make sure the area is safe
2. Calm casualty
3. Apply pressure immobilisation bandage.
-bandage around the bite site and then starting just above the fingers or toes bandage up the entire limb
-Apply a cross on the bandage where the casualty was bitten and write on the bandage the time the bandage was put on
-Bandage needs to be firm as for a sprain. Not too tight to restrict blood flow.
-never, ever remove the bandage yourself
3. Immobilise casualty.
-Apply a splint to immobilise bitten limb
-Ensure casualty does not move
5. Call 000 for an Ambulance.
Dont 'Suck the venom out', or 'wash the bite site', or 'cut the bite site'.

Heres a good link:
http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/index.aspx?base=3198

All in all, snakes are little guys wondering the earth with a curious nature, they dont want to be stepped on (who does?) and will always prefer to run away then attack a big monster of a human. However, if cornered/attacked....their defense is very good.

[Taurë-rana]

As the fangs are hollow(Tiger anyway)...if wearing trousers and gaiters hardly any poison will get injected.

Just wondering if you meant "grooved" sirius, as that was what I thought was so good about socks, trousers and gaiters - the poison gets wiped off on the way through.
The other thing I heard recently, although I don't know how true it is, is that snakes don't always inject venom even if they bite. Maybe Earthling could comment?

[BarryJ]

There was a case on the TV news last night. A young child (somewhere on the mainland) was bitten on the arm by a snake (you could see the puncture marks); his mother bandaged the arm and took him off to hospital. After observation, he showed no signs of a reaction to the bite so it was concluded that he was not "injected" with venom, so he was not even treated with an anti-venene.

[Earthling]

No one has died in Tasmania from a White Lipped Snake bite.
No one has died in Tasmania from a Copperhead Snake bite.

Around 50% of CONFIRMED bites will envonomate the victim, this drops to 20% when including unconfirmed snake bites.
All of our front fanged venomous snakes have hollow fangs.
Also, the reason jeans, thick socks, gaitors stop a snake from envenomating you, is that the snakes fangs are not long enough and the snakes bite strength is not able to get past this material.
I had some stats on bite location, but cannot find them at the moment. From memory the vast majoroty of bites were ankle and foot height (80-90%), so a thick pair of socks and any pair of normal shoes will greatly reduce the already insignificant chance of getting bitten and subsequently dieing from a snake bite.
Hope this helps Devon.

[the_camera_poser]

even jeans or chinos can make a difference

[BarryJ]

Anglers fishing small streams are known to get bitten on their hands and arms when scrambling up the bank from the water.

[Talus]

Its reassuring to know most bites tend to be at foot level where there is protection by boots & gaiters.

Last week I witnessed something you don't see everyday: we were walking along a track with a head-high bank on on side when a tiger snake suddenly tumbled from the top of the bank, narrowly missing my walking partner, who heard a noise and turned to see a snake falling at him. I guess we woke the snake from a nap and it 'slipped'. If snakes can look embarrassed, I reckon this one did. I am assuming it would have been more interested in fleeing rather than biting if my partner didn't get out of the way fast enough?

[red tag]

Tv news tonight .. A young girl bitten on the ankle at Jells Park in Eastern Melbourne.. shes OK ..but the twin fang marks on her ankle looked nasty .
Mike

[ClockworkLemon]

It does raise the question of what to do if you get bitten a few days walk from the nearest road.
...
So has anyone got a plan?? Carrying an EPIRB is probably to obvious one, but any other ideas??

Well, to be honest, I tend to worry about other things, when I think about things that could go wrong when I'm out walking. I've seen a few snakes while I've been out walking, and without exception, the snake has always disappeared from the track before I got close. Mind you, I may have to revise my thinking on that one.

Just yesterday I was out for a mountain bike ride with some friends, and between us we had 3 encounters with snakes. Two of them were fairly harmless, with the snake disappearing off the track well before anyone got close. The other was more of a concern, though, our lead rider had a snake strike at him as he rode past. From his description, he was moving fairly fast and didn't see the snake until the last minute, so we're assuming that the snake struck simply because it didn't have time to get away. Fortunately he wasn't bitten, but it did have us looking rather more carefully where we rode.

[walkinTas]

I've seen a few snakes while I've been out walking, and without exception, the snake has always disappeared from the track before I got close. Mind you, I may have to revise my thinking on that one.

This has always been my experience too, most snakes just move on, but on a recent walk to Rinadena Falls I encountered two snakes just at the start of the bush track. One moved on quickly. The other moved a metre or so away and sat looking at me. Very aggressive and in no big hurry to leave, and right where I needed to walk.

... Fortunately he wasn't bitten, but it did have us looking rather more carefully where we rode.

Marvelous just how carefully you look after a close encounter.

[Mick Thow]

Gday all i am a snake handler in Tas and have never been bitten in twelve years. the info is great that has been posted. With the tigers we have caught one last summer that had 7mm fangs, so please dont think that there fangs wont go through a pair of jeans, it is unlikly to get bitten though, i get full on with Tigers mostly and love to photograph them.
but our system is designed to break down Protine and that is what venom is made up of, it just gets into our nerves first, by using the presure bandage it gives you time. but i all ways say Make sure you tell someone when you will be back then if you are a while away they wii know where to look and find you. Do not try to walk out that will do more harm then good. I always tell people treat every snake as deadly here. Although no one has been killed by a Whiteliped snake here a lady did die from one in 1994, in Victoria, we do not know how we react till we have been bitten so be carefull if you would like a copy of a pamphlet my wife and i produced you van email me on [email protected], or see my pictures on http://www.redbubble.com/people/MickThow
Any questions are happy to be answered.
Cheers Mick Thow
All About Reptiles
http://www.allaboutreptiles.com.au

[Earthling]

It does raise the question of what to do if you get bitten a few days walk from the nearest road. Wello

Its a choice. I would do the wrap, splint and set up a nice camp right where I am and sit and wait it out.
Thats if I was bitten by a copperhead or white lip and from the limited info I know so far about these guys. Tiger I dont know.....maybe do the wrap and splint...then drop all but the necesary gear, write a note to leave with your pack saying whats happened and where your going and then head off...slowly. Also a note pinned to you so if someone finds you collapsed, they know what the go is.
I know of guys that have waited out redbellyblack bites...not a pleasant process at the time, but still alive.

Really depends on the venoms effect on the body and how far you have to go...will do some research.

[Mick Thow]

As i have not been bit i cant realy say what i would do but as my wife and i go out to Trefoil Island there are a few good sized snkes there and plenty of holes to hide in, i would prefer to wait till help come to me. my choice. The last person who died in Tas was trying to walk out of cradle mt, had she have waited it may have been different.
Wait have someone else go for help or get them to make a makeshift streature out of two limbs tied together and drag you out better then you walking.
My thoughts based on years of learning about them,playing and photographing them, just loving them.
One of my daughters was in the Sunday examiner with a big python after a summer rangers program we done at Port Sorell

[Earthling]

Good replys Mick. Your right in the sit and get/wait for help if you are with someone or are on a busy track. Definetly the way to go.
However, I was looking from the perspective of off track/not busy track, alone walking. Even worse if youve told friends/family to call SES if your not back in 10 days and your only on day 3!

[Tony]

A few years ago I was nearly bitten by a brown snake near Mawsons Hut in the Jugungal wilderness KNP, I walked into a small clearing and did not see the snake, I was about half a meter away, I obviously scared it, the snake reared up ready to strike, I jumped backward, I recon that I walked through air, I slowly retreated from the clearing, the snake watched my ready to strike until I was out of site, I was not wearing gaiters, I soon put them on.

Recently I have done some investigating on the latest treatments of snakebites, the Apr-June 2008 issue of Wild has a very good article called Scaly Encounters, which has some good information. Here is some information that I have come across mostly from the Wild article.

There are 155 species of Terrestrial snakes in Australia (new ones are being discovered even now), 90 of which are venomous and 32 are suspected or known to be capable of causing death in a human being.

In one study based near Leeton, NSW, out of 455 close encounters between researchers and wild eastern brown snakes only three resulted in an offensive advance.

Some snakes deliver bites that are more often “dry” than venom-bearing: these will not result in any illness. Secondly, even if you have received a significant dose of venom from a potentially lethal species, death in less than 14 hours is rare- you have time to act.

Treatment

In Australia, the cornerstone of first aid is the pressure immobilisation (PI) technique, a simple, revolutionary measure that has been proven effective when applied correctly. It consists of applying a broad pressure bandage for the length of the entire limb that has been bitten, commencing at the fingers or toes, and then immobilising the limb in a splint or sling. Immobilization is absolutely crucial. Keep the victim still.

Four or more wide elastic bandages should be included in your walking kit.

Studies have shown an alarming ignorance of this life-saving procedure. In one review, out of 264 patents presenting at Cairns Base Hospital over five years, only two had received correct first aid. (Of these 264 patents, one died)

In a study including lay and physicians volunteers, most participants failed to reach the optimum bandage pressure when following an instruction card on PI technique. This suggested that the bandages should be applied more firmly than you think. Cutting off circulation, however is counter productive.

Bites from some snakes may go unnoticed. Headache, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, sudden collapse, signs of paralysis such as drooping eyelids, discoloured urine or unexplained bleeding may all be symptoms of snake bites and this cause should be explored. However, fang marks can be very hard to detect, even post-mortem!

There seems to be some minor conjecture about the latest PI treatment.

The First Aid treatment advice from the Queensland Ambulance service mentioned by Earthling on this thread advises bandaging the site first and then apply the bandage from the toes or fingers

The Wild article and the First Aid advice from the Australian Venom Research Unit from The University of Melbourne advises to only apply the pressure bandage from the extremity of the limb http://www.avru.org/firstaid/firstaid_pib.html

But both methods are better than no treatment.

Tony

[MountainMule]

A couple of questions. I believe many species swim? The tiger and the brown? I see that the latest snake bite around Sydney was of a three year old child bitten while swimming in the Colo River.

Also, I assume by PLB / EPIRB we mean a 406mhz beacon? I believe the typical [cheaper] 121 EPIRBs will be superceded at the end of this month [ more accurately, they will still be able to be picked up by aircraft passing overhead, but that's only a possibility]. A 406 will provide a much more satisfactory service [ position down to 100m on GPS co-ordinates] and much less likelihood of spurious/malicious false alarms.

[Earthling]

...With the tigers we have caught one last summer that had 7mm fangs, so please dont think that there fangs wont go through a pair of jeans....

As I understand it, the reason Jeans, boots and thick socks are promoted, are as of two reasons.
1. Snakes when they have a defensive reaction to bite a leg, actually have a defensive reaction to bite your pants(they havent evolved to know about pants..space..then legs quite yet... ). Hence, they bite your clothing not your leg. However for this to work, you idealy need baggy pants, which thankfully many bushwalking pants are baggy...well the ones I wear are anyways....
2. Snakes do not have a lot of muscular jaw strength in clamping their fangs through thick dense material. So if thickish jeans such as some levis, wranglers and moleskins etc were worn, and thick socks, most snakes would not be able to penetrate them, plus your skin to envenomate you.

There are cases where snakes have bitten handlers jeans, penetrated the jeans, but no skin penetration so all was good; this was thigh level, kneeling position, so jeans were tight on skin. Lucky...
Others I have spoken too, talk of times theyve been bitten (jeans have been bitten), but the fangs have not contacted the skin.
As one guy said "Your leg is a fairly difficult thing to bite as it's fairly flat, so the snake will usually chomp down on the material. "

[tastrax]

All of our front fanged venomous snakes have hollow fangs.

This is not quite true...

Poison: none of the Tasmanian snake species can truly inject poison, relying instead on its flowing down a groove in the fangs. However, in old snakes the groove overgrows may form a hollow tooth.

http://www.wildcaretas.org.au/pages/new ... ews_id=115

[Earthling]

All of our front fanged venomous snakes have hollow fangs.

This is not quite true...

Poison: none of the Tasmanian snake species can truly inject poison, relying instead on its flowing down a groove in the fangs. However, in old snakes the groove overgrows may form a hollow tooth.

http://www.wildcaretas.org.au/pages/new ... ews_id=115

I was wondering if someone would bite onto that myth.
"Poison: none of the Tasmanian snake species can truly inject poison, relying instead on its flowing down a groove in the fangs. However, in old snakes the groove overgrows may form a hollow tooth. Tiger Snakes make up for this poor delivery system by having a large quantity of very powerful venom. The venom of the white-lipped whip snake has never been recorded as causing death to a human. Tasmanian snakes cannot bite through shoe leather or gum boots."

Unfortunately, the person who wrote this fiction above has mucked up..majorly.
Firstly. Straight up he says Poison. Australian Snakes are not poisonous by any definition known to man. They are venomous. A poison affects you when ingested. Snake venom when ingested has no effect.
Secondly, no Australian Snakes have a grooved fang...its a myth.
Heres a link that explains it in more detail then I ever could:
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgu ... %26hl%3Den

Thirdly, Tiger snakes dont make up for this poor delivery system, as the delivery system is fine!
Fourthly the White-lipped snake has killed someone. It should have read "..in Tasmania..."
Very bad information in that one paragraph...I would hate to read the rest of the 'information' in that 'article'/fiction.

[Taurë-rana]

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgu ... %26hl%3Den

Well, well. It's quite amazing that such a myth can be so widespread. Thank you for that link, Earthling, and all the info you are giving us about snakes, it's good to know.
I was under the impression that although whip (or white-lipped) snakes are not generally lethal for adults, they can kill a child rather more easily.

[tastrax]

Many thanks for that - I will pass on the details and get the pages updated (hopefully)

[tasadam]

Time to wake up an old thread, because I was off on a tangent and came across something that I had a read of.
I had to read it a couple of times to see that I was reading right.

For people who skim through forums and do not read all the text,
This is advice from the Parks site -

Snakebite is rare, but if someone in your party is bitten, follow these steps.

* Lie the victim down and do not permit them to move
* Don’t wash or cut the bitten area (most of the venom is likely to be on the surface of the skin – cutting or washing may allow more venom to enter the wound)
* Immediately apply a firm pressure bandage from the bite site all the way down the limb to the fingers or toes, and back up to cover the entire limb. The bandage should be firm but not tight – you should be able to feel a pulse beyond the bandaged area.
* Immobilise the affected limb by splinting. Leave the bandage on and send someone (preferably two people) to raise the alarm.
* Reassure the patient – death from snakebite is rare. Observe the airway and breathing during treatment. If breathing stops apply emergency resuscitation.

Do not apply a tourniquet – this can cause tissue damage at the site and can lead to the loss of the limb.

Do not attempt to kill the snake for identification – the same antivenom is used for all Tasmanian snakes.

DO NOT FOLLOW THIS ADVICE.
http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/survi ... ndex.shtml

Snake bites
Like most animals, snakes want nothing to do with humans. So, usually, it takes bad luck, like accidentally stepping on a slithering thing, or brain malfunction — like reaching blindly into piles of rocks or actually trying to catch one — to get bitten by a snake. Still, it's best to wear boots and long pants in snake territory. For added protection, you can wear gaiters, which shield your lower legs from all kinds of nastiness. And it doesn't hurt to pound the ground with a walking stick to let them know you're coming down the trail.


No Cutting and Sucking

OK, but what if it's not your day and a poisonous snake bites you? Time was when you would have been advised to have your hiking partner cut into the bite and suck the venom out. Forget about the cutting and sucking. Experts now say that's not a good idea because it could lead to infection. Better to use a commercial snake bite suction device, which you should invest in if you're a frequent hiker. The key to such kits is speed of use. To have any effect, the suction device must be used immediately after the bite, before the snake's venom is coursing freely through your bloodstream.

Also, wash the wound, stay calm and still, and keep the affected area below heart level to reduce the flow of venom. Remove any rings or tight-fitting clothing because the wounded area may swell. And don't apply a tourniquet. It won't help. The same goes for a cold compress. Never put one on snakebite. Finally, don't drink or eat anything and don't take any painkillers.

Don't Be A Tough Guy

What you do want to do is to head for a hospital. You could try to tough it out. But that would be stupid. The pain is only going to get worse and while you probably won't die, you could end up with permanent damage to a limb if you don't get some anti-venom in you as soon as possible. If on foot, hike out slowly. You don't want to race along the trail because you don't want to speed the venom's spread. So, take your time and remain calm. If you have a cell phone and can get a signal, call ahead for help. It's possible that emergency medical personnel could meet you on your way out or at the trailhead.

Some people say you should hunt down the snake and kill it. Revenge is sweet and all, but the reason is so the doctor will know what kind of anti-venoms to use. But don't waste time crawling through the weeds looking for the nasty thing. If you do get lucky and find it, chop off the snake's head and take it with you. But be careful. It could, thanks to a reflex reaction, bite you again.

And wouldn't that stink.

Um...
I wonder if someone followed that advice because they happened to print it and take it with them, whether they'd be liable.

Oh, and if you liked the sound of their snake bite advice, maybe you'll like the advice from some of these gems...
http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/survi ... ndex.shtml
Take particular note of taking on a shark - remember your camera when you go swimming!

[north-north-west]

Some people say you should hunt down the snake and kill it. Revenge is sweet and all, but the reason is so the doctor will know what kind of anti-venoms to use. But don't waste time crawling through the weeds looking for the nasty thing. If you do get lucky and find it, chop off the snake's head and take it with you.

*snigger*
Ancient history time again.
Many, many moons ago a bloke's girlfriend was bitten by a Tiger on Maria Island. The bloke in question followed what was then only very slightly outdated procedure, and managed to kill the snake quickly, before taking both it and the girlfriend into the Ranger Station at Darlinghurst for treatment and evacuation. After administering the anti-venene the Ranger then proceded to charge the bloke with killing a native animal in a National Park . . . oddly enough, neither the chap in question nor the media were particularly happy about this . . . big stink ensued with the Minister eventually intervening to have the charges dropped . . .

Personally, I'm on the ranger's side, even though he was a bit of a jerk.