Cooking in tents

[Birdie Claws]

Found this article while surfing the net today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-nort ... s-14529518

I know some people who prefer cooking in tents, and with adequate venting it's apparently safe. Personally however, I don't do it. So whats the general consensus on the forums?

I also noticed that the article doesn't specify that they were cooking, only that they were 'overcome by fumes'.

[sthughes]

I always cook in the vestibule, normally with it zipped down from the top. Therfore fumes can escape under the fly (there is about a 4 inch gap) and out the top as well. I'm not at all concerned by doing it, except to be careful I don't melt or set fire to anything. If I was cooking in a tent with a fly that went all the way to the ground and sealed pretty well I'd be a bit more careful as the nasty gasses fall no they don't apparently .

[ILUVSWTAS]

My college teacher always used to say it was a bad idea. After 2 stoned students burnt a macpac minaret to the pegs, the rest of us tended to agree.

[photohiker]

I'll cook in the vestibule, but not in a closed tent. Always very aware of ventilation and proximity of flammables.

Reading between the lines, I think the linked mishap is a bit different to the goings on cooking on the trail on a bushwalk. Families camping in tents in the UK are generally car camping with good sized hoop pole tents. In a closed space, overcome by fumes is easy to do when you're cooking for a family. There was a similar incident at one of the caravan parks in Adelaide not that long ago.

[corvus]

My college teacher always used to say it was a bad idea. After 2 stoned students burnt a macpac minaret to the pegs, the rest of us tended to agree.

Did he also advise them that getting stoned was not a good Idea
c

[ILUVSWTAS]

No he used to come in the tent with the other 14 of us.

[corvus]

No he used to come in the tent with the other 14 of us.

So did you inhale
c

[Nuts]

Sounds like he should have kept the good stuff for himself

Some tents with small vestibules, people who tend to fumble, new stoves and little experince with them, lots of good reasons not too.
With the fly pulled back or a large enough tent i dont see a problem. Another tick for a tipi perhaps

[ILUVSWTAS]

Maybe, maybe not.

[Nuts]

As monica said, 'not that old gag again' ..

[ILUVSWTAS]

Haha Nuts.....

Yeh each to their own. I've seen more lives destroyed by alcohol than any other drug. and thats the LEGAL one!!

[Nuts]

Yep, i'm with you there

[corvus]

Yes got to agree with you with regards to alcohol and it is cited as the "worst drug" in Australia however I do believe in moderation it is less harmful than "weed" I am led to believe that unlike alcohol the active component in "weed" today has become more toxic than in the past.
c

[Tony]

If you want to do some reading on CO and stoves, Roger Caffins FAQ has some very good information.

I personally think Rogers CO FAQ is a must read for every bushwalker, Roger Caffin is probably one of the world experts in this area.

I would not cook inside a tent with a petrol stove, alcohol stove or a Hexamine stove and some canister gas stoves like the MSR Reactor, there are some gas stoves with very low CO counts which maybe OK.

Tony

[corvus]

If you want to do some reading on CO and stoves, Roger Caffins FAQ has some very good information.

I personally think Rogers CO FAQ is a must read for every bushwalker, Roger Caffin is probably one of the world experts in this area.

I would not cook inside a tent with a petrol stove, alcohol stove or a Hexamine stove and some canister gas stoves like the MSR Reactor, there are some gas stoves with very low CO counts which maybe OK.

Tony

Tony, I suspect that vestibule use of cooking is what is being commented on and not actual inside
c

Moderator edit: Personal comment removed (and follow up posts focussed on the personal side also removed).

[Nuts]

Ok whats up here Tony's making the point that some stoves give off more CO and at levels where cooking under cover could be dangerous? Seems a good point for the OP to consider ol mate?

[corvus]

Nuts,
Is cooking in an open vestibule the same as cooking in an enclosed tent?? I think not and that is what I said ,clear and simple I thought
corvus

[Nuts]

Ok.. I just read 'tent' and Assumed he was more making the point about CO and different stoves.

As for the rest, ive never tested stoves to anywhere near the level Tony has and labeling Roger a worldwide expert on the matter doesn't irk me either. Then again i probably come across in a similar way on the odd few things i do know something about, who knows. It bothers me sometimes (for a few secs) until i realise the alternative to cover everyones sensitivities could make posts endless.

[Penguin]

I always cook in the vestibule, normally with it zipped down from the top. Therfore fumes can escape under the fly (there is about a 4 inch gap) and out the top as well. I'm not at all concerned by doing it, except to be careful I don't melt or set fire to anything. If I was cooking in a tent with a fly that went all the way to the ground and sealed pretty well I'd be a bit more careful as the nasty gasses fall.

I think the point is to get some ventilation and not have the gas flat out. No problems with boiling a cup of water for the dehy or to make a cuppa with the weather doing its worst outside.

There is the story of first night on the SW track a couple putting shelite rather than metho in the Trangia and lighting. Not much tent left with the fireball that went up. Urban myth? A mate of mine saw it over 20 years ago.

People have been cooking in tent vestibules for years safely. It is to do with moderation - hey is that a segue into the alcohol discussion

P

PS THC levels are skyrocketing in the new hydroponic "weed". Effect???

[Birdie Claws]

Hey Tony, dunno if you recognize me, but I was the one who bought your tarptent moment. Loving the seam sealing job you did on it.

[Dale]

Nice link Tony. Always enjoy reading Roger Caffin's articles.

[Tony]

Hey Tony, dunno if you recognize me, but I was the one who bought your tarptent moment. Loving the seam sealing job you did on it.

Hi Birdie Claws,

I hope you are getting a lot of use out of the moment, you need to talk to ninjapuppet about the seam sealing job, as it was already done when I got it off him.

Tony

[Tony]

There is the story of first night on the SW track a couple putting shelite rather than metho in the Trangia and lighting. Not much tent left with the fireball that went up. Urban myth? A mate of mine saw it over 20 years ago.

A few years back I cleaned up a new MSR Whisperlite international for a work colleague, the owner had tried to use Methylated Spirits as fuel.

Tony

[stepbystep]

A guy I met at Rhona told me of 2 guys with a metho stove in a tent in the Vic(?) high country under snow, topping up their stove well while there was still a subtle flame they couldn't see, spilled fuel, panic, flames everywhere, half a tent incinerated and a long night ahead. Nightmare stuff! Having said that I cook in my vestibule if it's freezing/raining with both my trangia and pocket rocket and just make sure I'm organised/safe. I would be quite reticent to use a liquid fuel stove inside a tent. Much prefer to sit outside and cook though, enough time spent inside as it is.

[JohnM]

Re the above,

the problem wasn't that they cooked in their vestibule. The problem was they were dumb enough to try and top up a trangia like that. It's pretty stupid to add meths to the burner, unless you know for sure that the burner is not only extinguished, but also reasonably cool to the touch. To do so out in the open invites a burn, to do so inside a tent is completely idiotic.

If you're careful and sensible, cooking in a vestibule in filthy weather is safe. But if you can't trust yourself not to do dumb stuff, then it isn't.

[Tony]

Some years ago Roger Caffin produced a series of excellent, comprehensive articles on CO and bushwalking/backpacking stoves, they where published on Backpacking Light but you need a subscription to read them.

For those of you who do not know Roger, he has a PhD in Physics and worked as a Scientist with CSIRO until his retirement, he is now the Editor of Technology with Backpacking Light, a US based e-magazine.

I have put together some general information from the articles.

Below are some health and safety guidelines.

Conc, ppm Effect
0 - 1 Normal background
9 Max allowed for short term exposure in a living room, acc to ASHRAE, USA
25 Often encountered on major roads - UK figure
30 Health and Safety limit for 8 hours - UK
35 Suggested max allowable concín for continuous exposure for 8 hr - ASHRAE, USA
100 May be encountered on major roads during weather inversions - UK figure
200 Health and Safety limit for 15 minutes - UK
200 Mild headache, fatigue, nausea, dizziness. Limit for transient exposure - USA
200 Slight headache, tiredness, dizziness, nausea after 2-3 hr - ASHRAE, USA
300 Can lead to collapse - UK MoD
400 Frontal headache, life threatening after 3 hrs

A very brief summery of the results.

Shellite stoves CO ppm range from 10 ppm to 340 ppm

MSR Whisperlite Int'l recorded 50 ppm on low setting using shellite, 20 ppm on high using shellite, 270 ppm on low, Kerosene, 200 ppm on high kerosene

Alcohol stoves CO levels range 114 ppm to 285 ppm

Trangia 25 recorded 285 ppm

Canister gas stoves on low setting measured from 5 ppm to 1000 ppm and on high setting from 5 ppm to 286 ppm.

Some of the upright gas stoves had very low CO levels while some like the MSR reactor had very high CO levels (though I understand that this has been improved) The multi fuel stoves generally perform very poorly with CO levels.

Tony

[Penguin]

Canister gas stoves on low setting measured from 5 ppm to 1000 ppm and on high setting from 5 ppm to 286 ppm.


Tony

Thanks for the data Tony. Happy to be using gas - although I do use a moonwalker. It would be nice to know what the air exchange in a the average tent is and how this would affect CO levels.

Also I hope the above should be 5ppm to 100ppm, otherwise I am in real trouble

Cheers

P

[Tony]

Thanks for the data Tony. Happy to be using gas - although I do use a moonwalker. It would be nice to know what the air exchange in a the average tent is and how this would affect CO levels.

Also I hope the above should be 5ppm to 100ppm, otherwise I am in real trouble

Cheers

P

Hi Penguin,

The Moonwalker is not the best for CO levels but is below 100 ppm.

I suppose the air exchange in a tent or tent vestibule depends on the tent design, and weather conditions.

Tony

[Ent]

Um? Time to break my public silence as this issue is like most safety issues assumes the absence of common-sense and I got rather burnt on this issue some-time back.

First have deaths occurred due to carbon mono-oxide poisoning in tents? Yes sadly with this link to just two events that cost six lives http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4832a1.htm. This means a proven risk exists. Interesting to note in both these tragic events it was the use of cooking equipment as heating and the victims had then gone to sleep. This means much greater exposure in time to the carbon monoxide than simply cooking a meal but no doubt such events get included as cooking in tent death statistics.

Not too sure that I would consider safe just about any likely part per million level generated from a stove if the exposure was long enough. Sure lower the level the longer the time before carbon monoxide locks up enough capacity to kill but even at low PPM this process is happening so while death may not result some ill effects might be felt. Please note this comment is at levels likely generated by stoves not some open air reading as carbon monoxide forms part of the atmosphere and our bodies obviously have enough capacity to deal with it.

Also any test assumes that all stoves are in identical condition to the test samples and operated exactly the same way. People modify stoves, do not maintain them, they get damaged, etc. I for one would not zip myself up in a tent with any stove using it as a heater regardless of "tested" PPM of carbon monoxide. I assume that the "safety mechanism" is carbon dioxide builds up quicker than the dangerous carbon monoxide thus registering on the person and resulting in a rapid exit of the tent due to shortness of breath. Carbon monoxide does not register so is insidious as it creeps up on people. In fact breath recycled air through a filter that removes carbon dioxide and you will happily breath away until you die. More than a few deaths happen in hospitals when someone manges to force a nitrogen cylinder onto a oxygen cylinder fitting. In fact attending a hospital as a patient is one of the most risky things that you can do.

I and most people I walk with are more than happy to cook in a tent vestibule. We much prefer to cook outside and often a group member will take a tarp to make a sheltered kitchen area but on those all too familiar wet days we cook in the vestibule. As also most people are happy to close all the doors and windows on Pelion Hut and have twenty stoves roaring away. People have also died from carbon monoxide poisoning in houses due to flue failures, etc. So how long before Parks will ban cooking in huts or should we start campaigning for the ban now? With the fire rules it looks like cold food for a sizeable part of the year The reality is with a vestibule that has a bottom and top vent (and open of course) and the person is awake for me the risk is low. In fact I look for tents with that design.

For the Top Gear fans check out the episode of driving to the North Pole. You might recognise the tent used by the James and Jeremy Interesting to note that they were happily using a fuel stove positioned in the centre of the tent. So sudden death is not inevitable even if doing something rather stupid.

As for bushwalking risk. We walk tracks and paths that do not comply with the building code. Does that mean that we should not do walks unless the track complies with building codes? Risk is unavoidable and human beings are notoriously poor at ranking it. But risk is controllable. Decent tent vestibule design helps as does the use of fire retardant (note not proof) materials and sensible care in risk moderation. Remember it is your personal choice.

As for personal perception of risk I still can not reconcile people's concern with their actions and resulting indignation. Using a standard two axis table with likeliness of the event happening on one axis and likely injury on the other my staff were ask to rate various office risks. The number 36 is the highest and which means jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Base jumping would likely be a 34-35 rating. The staff rated the risk of having a coffee at their desk and being electrocuted if spilled at 33. In the open plan office I looked up and saw every desk with a drink on it. It is clear what they now claimed was an extreme risk did not even raise and eyebrow beforehand. I can not imagine them strapping on a parachute and jumping out of the plane without a care in the world and then afterwards in a risk evaluation meeting giving this a 33. The biggest chuckle I had was when everyone agreed that it would be most likely to spill the drink on the keyboard and some of the keyboards were battery powered wireless ones. Ok, under OH&S a decree was issued that no open liquid containers were to be in the work spaces. A few years later I re-visted the old office crew and sure enough coffee mugs had crept back along with the now much more common glass of water

Yes I do cook in a tent vestibule but only if the design allows for adequate ventilation and the stove that I am using is stable. This means that I have a few stoves and one tent that I would not cook in the vestibule. Also I have read up on what to watch for with carbon monoxide levels. Actually the biggest risk is not knowing something is risky. Sadly nowadays it is much easier to say no than explain the risks and leave it up to people's common-sense to work out if and when some action is acceptable for risk.

Cheers

[Nuts]

Sadly nowadays it is much easier to say no than explain the risks and leave it up to people's common-sense to work out if and when some action is acceptable for risk.

Cheers

Good to see your in form Agree with everything (i think, lol) but i dont think the No is a bad thing and maybe appropriate on a public forum. Common sense has never been a currency..
Bushwalking does seem to attract Many people big on ideals but with little in everyday life to draw from for the practical side.