Ultra light in Storms, cuben duomid [Split]

[ULWalkingPhil]

Split from BIG 4.

Tent: Big Agnes Fly Creek 2 UL, very overkill for 1 person but great for two- 1170 grams
Sleeping Bag: Custom Javan Dempsey quilt rated to -7 C (~2.5 inch loft, 900 fill power)- 532 grams
Backpack: Gossamer Gear Gorilla- 686 grams
Mat: Exped SynMat 7 UL, did have the NeoAir and very happy with the upgrade- 470 grams

Total = 2.86kg

Looking to upgrade to the MLD Cricket in Cuben for solo walking which would save me about 720 grams off my Fly Creek 2 UL, massive difference: http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=174

Wow, that's some light gear you have there. I thought my gear was light till I read these posts.

Do you all find this ultra light gear durable enough in storms?

[Empacitator]

Tent: Big Agnes Fly Creek 2 UL, very overkill for 1 person but great for two- 1170 grams
Sleeping Bag: Custom Javan Dempsey quilt rated to -7 C (~2.5 inch loft, 900 fill power)- 532 grams
Backpack: Gossamer Gear Gorilla- 686 grams
Mat: Exped SynMat 7 UL, did have the NeoAir and very happy with the upgrade- 470 grams

Total = 2.86kg

Looking to upgrade to the MLD Cricket in Cuben for solo walking which would save me about 720 grams off my Fly Creek 2 UL, massive difference: http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=174

Wow, that's some light gear you have there. I thought my gear was light till I read these posts.

Do you all find this ultra light gear durable enough in storms?

I've only had the Fly Creek UL2 in a couple of storms and has performed well. It wouldn't be as good as your Hilleberg tent of course but for the conditions I hike in, it works great. I like that I can get a double walled tent for just over 1kg with a half solid/half mesh inner. A compromise I have to make is that I have to be careful when opening the door in a storm as rain could enter the tent.

Lightweight gear for me has become a hobby, more than just a lighter pack while walking. Gives me something to enjoy between walks!

[Nuts]

I have a cuben duomid underway from MLD. Intrigued by the concept of bonding/taping I ordered some Cuben fibre to make some tarps as well. I had some that ive been testing and the bond is incredible (even with just tape...) The material is so light... the only downside is its partial transparency (for a single skin). Ive seen it dyed and recently read of some being alumminised (ie inner like a space blanket)... all fascinating (to me)...
The combined knowledge and modern materials has brought forward a huge shift in what has been proved possible. With what is now known about where forces act on tarps and tents it shows just how over-engineered gear was (and still often is). New designs and just minor changes can make tents actually stronger (by reinforcing the places that need it) than they ever were (ie no point having a 3kg tent if the guy points aren't well designed).

I really like our hilleberg tents but I can see a time when i'll never carry something so heavy. The Cricket (you mention) is based on proven design concepts, i dont much need the sewn in tent approach but it shows what can be achieved for an all season (almost) 2 skin tent... 4-500grams instead of 2/3kg... The single skin Duomid is around 360grams..

[Empacitator]

Sounds great Nuts would love to see some pictures and your thoughts on the Duomid once you get it!

[Nuts]

From MLD

Last edited by Nuts on Wed 01 Jun, 2011 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[vagrom]

Horses for courses.

[Nuts]

I know... shopping bags!... that was my first thought

Last edited by Nuts on Wed 01 Jun, 2011 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Nuts]

PS (I know it is off topic a bit... but then the OP never mentioned weights, folks just started listing them... funny that )

It doesnt have to look like shopping bags... you can make it slightly heavier

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Last edited by Nuts on Sun 15 May, 2011 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[corvus]

corvus

Sure, as you know, it will be a while... I'll swap the photo for this one

duomidstealth.jpg

:

Nuts I guess you will only be using this with a Bivvy bag so when you combine weights what will it be overall ?

[Nuts]

I would use a bivy yes... some wouldnt.. This 360, bivvy 270, (300g 'all weather blanket' ground sheet ...)

Last edited by Nuts on Wed 01 Jun, 2011 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[corvus]

No sewing on seams sounds good but what about tie down points will the tape work there ?

[ninjapuppet]

I had to wait over 2 months for my duomid to arrive, so it didnt make it in time for a kosciuzko trip which was a bummer. I did use it in NZ but with no winds or rain. Heres my weights for your interest

CF duomid: 332
Corner ties = 13
Mid ties 180cm = 38
Stuff sack = 18 (silnylon)
Stakes = 88 (4 groundhogs, 4 mountainfitter)
Golite stake bag = 6
Pole extender = 20 (not used)

TOTAL = 495g
Net tent: 298g

TOTAL ~ just under 800 grams

I would use another net with higher tub floors if rain is expected. Personally I would loose the cumbersome line adjusters and thick guys and replace it with zpacks flourescent guys + lineloks.
Total still comes under 800g. Its not the lightest but you get alot of space to sort out your gear and cook.

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[ninjapuppet]

Heres a photo of the bath tub floored net tent. It hasnt been tensioned out yet. I usually set up the outer first, get inside then set up the net tent.

and a shangrila 3 Vs Duomid for comparison

[ninjapuppet]

And on-topic with your off-topic post Nuts, but I your cuben sample apears to be shiny on one side? the cuben in the duomid isnt, while the cuben in this rocket is shiny due to an additional reflective layer laminated into it.

This rocket has been verified by me personally to handle winds what smash a hilleberg jannu. we are talking 150+kph winds here, so CF doubters can have something to think about.. I wouldnt make it my daily go-to tent for everything though, for fear of wear and tear.

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[Nuts]

No sewing on seams sounds good but what about tie down points will the tape work there ?

There are many ways to do them, as with the whole tent they Can be sewn but from what i see so far they are just as successfully bonded. The seams are 'taped' but its just a removable adhesive backing tape that carries the glue. The glue in liquid form can be used for adding reinforcement patches and integrated (or sewn on) tie down loops.

There are fully bonded silnylon tents around. They appear to be ok but the stuff is so slippery it would take some time to trust.

NP the material with the shiny side is just everyday cuben fibre. Its been dyed and then an aluminium coating has been added... .

Last edited by Nuts on Wed 01 Jun, 2011 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Nuts]

O right, sorry, didnt see Phil's question... I think NP answered it?

I'd add straight away (even without having it) that I very much doubt the duomid (mentioned) will be as bombproof as your Hilleberg tent... whether thats necessary, whether you are able to plan for the shortcomings or whether the 3kg saved matter are all personal choices.

[Orion]

There are fully bonded silnylon tents around.

You mean glued as opposed to stitched seams, correct?
Which tents? Or are there only homemade ones like this?

[cams]

Lawson Outdoor Equipment (Mountainfitter) have just released some new cuben tarps using a new type of cuben. I think it looks awesome.



http://lawsonequipment.com/cart.html

[Nuts]

Orion, ive seen a few home projects and at least one manufacturer using glues. I think its termed bonding as the glue sets of a reaction (not sure). Grabbed this company from google for an example:
http://www.arapahoeoutdoors.com/teepee_dev.php

Cams, they do look nice. I was talking to the factory rep and they do plan on a reflective coated fabric. As its just a mylar coating they can do a lot of options. As there customers are mainly companies building racing yacht sails the pockets would need to be deep to tweak their interest in something not useful to industry i'd imagine. I reckon Lawson has done that himself (ie dyed the material and then had it aluminised) (ie i think its the 25gsm stuff with a few gsm's of alum coating).

Last edited by Nuts on Thu 19 May, 2011 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Orion]

Thanks for the reply, Nuts. The Arapahoe folks don't get into the gritty details. I've experimented with bonding/glueing silnylon and found it to be pretty darn strong, but I haven't tested the durability or longevity. So I've wondered. I'm making a tent at the moment -- stitched -- but with some bonded parts. We'll see how it holds up.

It appears to me that Tarptent uses bonding for some non-critical components.

I wonder, is it slightly heavier to glue as opposed to stitch?

(edited for spelling)

Last edited by Orion on Wed 18 May, 2011 2:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

[Nuts]

I have mucked around with silicone glues before (a McNett product I think it was) and it appeared to hold ok though I havent done so for large items such as tents/tarps. There are a few arcticles ive come across while researching glues/tapes for Cuben that have involved all glue silnylon, if i recall they also mention a product called GE 11 Silicone sealant/glue. I dont think its that popular (as sewing is quick and proven) but i'd imagine (if properly designed) glued seams would be ok. The Arapahoe people seem to think sow If your only talking reinforcement patches or the perimeter hem these wouldnt be as crucial (so long as the tie outs were solidly designed)

It would be important not to try to design seams in the traditional folded/lapped way where the pressure is attempting to 'peel' the seam. I'd imaging simple butt/overlap joining (as with Cuben) would be strongest. This I guess is where silnylon would be more difficult as the cuben can be just left with an unfinished edge, not unravel ... ie i think you would have to fold and join the edge (of a seam) before then joining that doesnt rely on that fold.

Have you had a look through Backpackinglight.com, there is at least one forum topic on silnylon glued application. Also discussions of testing jigs (quite simple to test a few glued joins against sewn ones and see ) This one is an article: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... brics.html might be worth the joining fee?

It does add some weight but i doubt it would be much of an issue.

[Orion]

Nuts, I've used the GE Silicone II adhesive for general repairs around the house. I haven't actually tried it on silnylon fabric. I'll have to buy some more and see if it's really any better.

I did do an experiment with two other adhesives: McNetts Silnet and DAP 100% Silicone Aquarium Sealant. I think you are right about standard flat fell seams being the wrong approach for this because of the torque/peeling produced by tension, but nevertheless that's the join I tried. The seam bonded with McNetts came apart, although it required a fair amount of effort. The one bonded with DAP was impossible for me to seperate by just pulling with my hands. I was impressed, but not convinced that it would stand up to long term stress as well as environmental degradation.

It was mostly just for curiosity's sake. I think stitching main seams is simpler. But there are non-stress joins where gluing has an appeal.

Thanks for the BPL link. Worth the $25 to join? Maybe. It isn't much but I find I always balk at the fee.

[Nuts]

There is a lot of knowledge in the articles. Probably invaluable if your making (or buying a lot of) stuff, but yer, otherwise as an annual fee i would be hesitant as well.

It is a bit of a leap of faith to rely on a glued join isnt it, a couple of rows of stitching or a few cm's of glue? I do notice the 50yr life expectancy of that DAP product you mention... It makes a lot of sense for plastic (cuben/mylar) but with silnyon you have all those threads to stitch through. Still, if gluing holds, the tapes and glues open up possibilities for the average home job, in reality if the glued joins last a year outside they are probably good enough for the practical tent lifespan. Relying on a chemical bond rather than physical means that the joining process does need to be well done, clean, well thought through.

Does make a lot of sense that bonded seams are the next logical step. With this in mind, a material more suited to bonding also makes sense. They are all synthetics in various forms the only difference being 'time on the job'. To me, Cuben fibre has been around long enough now to be proven viable but even it isnt perfection. While stronger than silnylon, not being as stretchy, it wont fail in the same way. In getting a solid tent fly that doesnt sag you obviously give up the ability to yield in strong winds also, whether in real terms this matters so long as the design is up to it.

Last edited by Nuts on Thu 19 May, 2011 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Orion]

It is a bit of a leap of faith to rely on a glued join isnt it, a couple of rows of stitching or a few cm's of glue?

Well I wouldn't do it without a fair amount of testing as well as a compelling reason. Stitching nylon fabric together has been tested extensively.

I do notice the 50yr life expectancy of that DAP product you mention...

I could be mistaken but I think that refers to their use as a sealant (caulk), not as an adhesive for any arbitrary material put under any arbitrary load. Oh, and I've used silicone sealants outdoors and I can tell you that they sure don't last for 50 years! I wonder what the fine print of that guarantee says? For one of their other products that has a 50 year "satisfaction" guarantee, if you're not happy they ask you to return the unused portion and they'll give you a refund. That's it.

Does make a lot of sense that bonded seams are the ext logical step. With this in mind, a material more suited to bonding also makes sense.

Why? Is bonding easier/cheaper to assemble? Or is it just that it saves the customer from having to seal the seams?

I'd personally first choose the fabric that best suits my needs and then determine the best way to join it, not the other way around. I'd love to use cuben simply because it is so light. But it would cost me 4 to 5 times as much as silnylon does. It makes me wonder if I could just glue together dollar bills to make a tent.

[Nuts]

Good Morning Orion (and early risers)

$ bills lol

Last edited by Nuts on Wed 01 Jun, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Orion]

"The downfall in discussing topics like this is..." -- Yes, the pitfalls of internet forum discussions. It's often easier to fixate on differences, frequently nit-picky ones, than acknowledge agreement. I do agree with the vast majority of what you've said.

Now whether or not bonded seams are really the future has yet to be decided. Sometimes the old way turns out to be the better way. Look at the Hilleberg tents where their stitched seams appear to need no sealing. We will see.

By the way, I usually buy cosmetic seconds silnylon ($5.90/yd at OWC). The color selection is limited, but if I had to pay $10.50/yd I would just go buy a tent instead.

[cams]

What are people thoughts on using a perimeter net plus a bathtub floor instead of a nest? Would you save some weight?

Also, would the MLD duomid be a bit of a squeeze for two? I imagine entry while it's raining could be a bit interesting?

[Nuts]

I have a bug net sewn around my shangri-la 3. Good option! Closes up nicely. I was thinking of adding a drawcord to pull it in under the groundsheet.
The half nest (fabric) look like a good winter solo inner but the perimeter net is very versatile.
Most people seem to agree the duomid is too small for two people. The supermid is popular.

[Tony]

Here is an interesting review on the Duomid with an oookworks-inner in Scotish conditions.

[ninjapuppet]

Just saw an interesting video review of the Luxe Mini Peak II
Doesnt have the mid panel guy outs like the duomid and the outer weighs 3 times more than a cuben duomid at 900gm but its 3 times cheaper than a cuben duomid at $150 delivered from ebay.

if you use your own trekking poles, its not a bad 1.5kg, 3 season tent for $150.