Trips down memory lane

[Moondog55]

Why bushwalking in the "OLD DAYS " was so much better

OK this is only partly a joke as sometimes I really do not miss scratchy wet wool blankets and trying to cook rolled oats over a smokey fire while wearing gumboots.
But in a lot of instances things really were better, tracks were self maintained and we didn't have to go and get quadruple copies of permissions to trim a leaf off a gumtree, there were more cattle in the bush and farmers burned the scrub every year so there were fewer blackberries and such things.
i also remember taking ( as a matter of course ) one of the rifles with me to pot the odd bunny or small wallaby or young joey for fresh meat along the way and i can remember walking along Flinders St with mates and having a slung rifle over the shoulder along with the rucksac was normal. As was carrying a full size axe to cut firewood

And because the ground was better maintained by small farmers and the annual fires kept the ground open we walked in some very nice areas that are simply too difficult to walk in now.
The national parks system is badly flawed poorly funded and managed and I think it has a hidden agenda to ruin good farmland and replace it with weeds and blackberries so at some stage it can be sold of to developers as useless wasteland

[Swifty]

times change, buddy.
I don't miss the old days at all - only vaguely miss being younger (and stupider), perhaps, but it's pointless to mull over than that. (or, getting older is better than the alternative).
I can see that the "younguns" these days are a lot more environmentally aware, as can be seen on this forum everywhere. Attitudes have changed for the better - for example, the vandalism of flooding Pedder would be unimaginable these days if it was still there. in the "good old days", government let that happen.
I can't comment on your other points regarding guns and cattle, don't know enought about them. I guess you're talking mostly about Victoria? I don't know about hidden agendas, what you suggest makes no sense to me.

[taswegian]

yes memory lane!
but I wouldn't want to relive the days of 'kerosene bush' (richea scoparia) fire lighters.
And sleeping under hollow logs, scrub tents, empty battery acid bottles for water containers, real fires and black sooty billies ...

I have eaten freshly caught rabbit in Flinders Ranges - probably not the done thing these days. That memory of foil wrapped rabbit with onion and other yums and baked in the coals will be with me for ever.

Swifty is right - there is a move to be more environmentally sensitive, but flip side is there are those who deliberately flout such things as its 'cool' to do so.
That's just a 'memory lane' attitude with a contemporary slant.

Paddymade gear - those were the days of genuine good Aussie made gear.
I think my first sleeping bag is now someones teddy's blanket.

[Liamy77]

yes memory lane!

I have eaten freshly caught rabbit in Flinders Ranges - probably not the done thing these days. That memory of foil wrapped rabbit with onion and other yums and baked in the coals will be with me for ever.

not the done thing!!! if anyone has any feral rabbits they don't want i'll gladly take em!!! i still enjoy a good stew... i'm not that old either!

[gayet]

Just check them for mixi and calici (spelling is questionable). I recall fresh rabbits being brought home by dad, to feed the cats - they loved them, but mother considered them depression food and would not allow the family to eat them.

[Moondog55]

A million bushwalkers with axes and wood fires would still not be able to do as much damage as a politician with a pen
Who said we old timers were and are not environmentally aware and friendly, even in the old days?? And at the moment to to ineptitude and apathy our "national" and state parks are havens for millions of feral goats horses camels,pigs foxes cats dogs pigeons and other pests as well as hundreds of thousands of deer which are not at the moment a pest but which were in the past

[frenchy_84]

i feel you are writing this just to have an arguement (which is fine) because i would think that the majority of users on here would agree that we have made steps forward with respect to the use of national parks. For example you site the grazing of cattle as a good thing but then state that horses, deer and goats are bad. While cattle numbers maybe controlled surely the grazing damage down by them is the same as the other mentioned pests. When you consider how much of the central plateau has been destroyed by fire which has escaped from camp fires, anyone who argues for the right to use camp fires doesnt have a leg to stand on.

[Moondog55]

But I have two good legs and was active in the CFA for years and as a bushfire fighter I know we don't do anywhere near enough fuel reduction burning, managed cattle and feral animals are totally different, the difference is apparent in the word managed.
BTW it is "cited" not "sited" I see many things when walking.
I think that when talking about this we need to realised that as suggested earlier my references are mainly to Victoria, which is demonstrably inept at management despite employing many very expert people, the very department name ( Department of Sustainability and Environment ) tells you that the department is schizoid and full of internal conflict

I like stewed bunny, also very fond of beef lamb venison hares, goat pigeon all of which can be cooked on a shovel.
Also i have attended on fire caused by a malfunctioning canister stove, the stopping of the use of wood fuel on Bogon wad nothing to do with the supposed dangers of open fires but the gradual lowering of the tree line caused by the ring-barking of live trees to provide firewood helicopters fixed that problem as one chopper load could provide a full winters fuel for the Cleve Cole hut and we still use the open fire at that hut
Paddymade gear, carried by the bloke that made it, and copied by every-one. No I don't miss canvas tents, but japara tents in summer make good sense still, especially in time of drought, nor do I miss the stink of dead sheep as we all crowded around the fire to dry out our wet army woolen pants and soggy jumpers but some of that gear is the epitome of easy care, unlike my goretex coats I never ever had to wash my old black oiled japara.
I would like on occasion to be able to mix the best of both eras

I'd personally like to castrate the bugger who thought it would be a good idea to burn down all the cattlemans huts on the high-plains tho, that is and was vandalism on a grand scale, my uncles initials were carved in the beams of some of those huts as were my grandfathers and I have been denied the opportunity to show those to my son

Perhaps somethings do boil down to personal preference but the evidence tells me that a twig fire causes much less environmental damage that a fuel stove, once ALL of the factors are measured, although I have used both for many years. I use an MSR X-G_K and a hobo stove; in fact the hobo stove is the windshield for the MSR and I like the fact that I am recycling and extending the use of something that is normally discarded.

The why is often to do with a very personal dislike of ruling by statute, I have a distrust of statutory authority as they have no responsibility and massive power to fine and punish with no recourse to parliament for discussion.
some of the very best walking places in Victoria have been placed out of bounds under statute with no discussion with the public and very little justification in reality; as have some of the very best hunting areas.
Hunting is after all just bushwalking with purpose

[frenchy_84]

Thanks for the spelling tips and BTW its "had" not "wad"

Perhaps somethings do boil down to personal preference but the evidence tells me that a twig fire causes much less environmental damage that a fuel stove, once ALL of the factors are measured, although I have used both for many years.

Please meaure these factors for me. It only takes one escaped fire to *&%$#! everything and an open camp fire is far more likely to escape that a fuel stove fire. Remember not everyone that uses national parks is an expert in lighting camp fires like you maybe and its not practicle to have one set of rules for some and a different rules for others.

[sailfish]

I have to agree with the sentiment that National Sparks and Wild Fires have got it wrong and taken far too extreme a view. I have through experience grown wary of idealists.

Ken

[frenchy_84]

well we will have to agree to disagree on this one becauce you seem to be talking about a specific areas management rather than a general aus wide view. But it should be pointed out that alot of the issues that are bad today are a result of the "good ol days" the pest species didnt get up there all by themselves

[blacksheep]

i hope you have the correct permit to wander dowm memory lane?

[Moondog55]

Thanks for the spelling tips and BTW its "had" not "wad"

Perhaps somethings do boil down to personal preference but the evidence tells me that a twig fire causes much less environmental damage that a fuel stove, once ALL of the factors are measured, although I have used both for many years.

Please measure these factors for me. It only takes one escaped fire to *&%$#! everything and an open camp fire is far more likely to escape that a fuel stove fire. Remember not everyone that uses national parks is an expert in lighting camp fires like you maybe and its not practicle to have one set of rules for some and a different rules for others.

You are saying campfire and I am saying twig fire for cooking, they are not the same
OK and it is roughly and I do not take into account wildfire, the most common cause of which is lightning strike anyway
Carbon footprint of a twig fire in non-existent as we are not talking about fossil fuels
The carbon footprint of the tin can to contain the fire is almost equally long but in this instance I am using something that would be discarded ( most cafes and restaurants do not use any recycling at all )
Carbon footprint of something simple like an MSR XGK needs to take into account all of the inputs of manufacture, so the fossil fuel used to dig the ore to make the metal, plus the carbon footprint of the coal burned to extract the metallic aluminum for the bauxite ore then you add the transport cost of metal to factory etc etc. it is a very long chain
The carbon cost of the fuel used in the stoves is equally long
I think you are equating a consequence of poor management skill with actual carbon footprint costs, and as I said i have seen fires caused by canister stoves so poor management is not only for wood fueled cooking fires, campfires are a luxury that are good in the right circumstances and again are carbon-footprint neutral

[Moondog55]

i hope you have the correct permit to wander dowm memory lane?

Well I have been walking and stuff since I was 12 YO in the Boy Scouts, been a committed walker ( or is that a walker who should be committed ) since I was 16, I carried an SLR and radio from the time i was legally able to enlist and I am now 6o, soon to be even older than that if I live long enough; if not totally entitled I think I am halfway there.
Thank god we don't yet have to pay for this particular permit, the older we got the more we'd have to pay

[north-north-west]

To address just one point in a highly illogical and inconsistent OP: it's the cattle and their tenders who introduced weeds like blackberry to the High Country in the first place, and helped them spread so fast and so wide.
For another: you don't burn the same country every year, that prevent species regenerating and makes it almost impossible for the wildlife to recolonise the burnt areas.

I could continue, but if I did I'd say what I really think and no doubt have the post moderated and myself sinbinned,.

[Moondog55]

Tell that to the locals, the Bardie people, who burned the country every year when harvesting Bogong moth, don't blame the Alpine cattlemen for the blackberry either, that is carried by birds and can travel a thousand klicks before being dumped; although it would of course usually be much less, all generations get to clean up the mess of the previous one, hell in Spain they are still cleaning up after the Romans almost 3000 years ago.
What has logic and consistency to do with trips down memory lane?? Somethings ALWAYS look better through the rose coloured glasses of old age and we all misremember stuff at times.

My original contention is that some things really were better in the old days.

I have just reread my OP, nothing inconsistent in that or my replies.

[Tony]

I am with you NNW.

I remember seeing photos of the Main Range KNP before the cattle where kicked out, compared to what the Main Range looks like now the place was nearly a desert, they are still working on the damage caused by grazing.

Tony

[north-north-west]

The standard Aboriginal pattern was mosaic burning: a bit here and a bit there, on a cycle of five years or more. That way there are patches of regrowth at various stages so the wildlife have somewhere safe to shelter. It's something we should still be doing in a lot of areas, weather and personnel permitting.

[taswegian]

There are areas that we have today that people flock to, we say are just fantastic and lets preserve it, but we must take away mankinds influence and animals and fire etc to make it all work.

The Cradle area (vicinity) is one such.
Do that to some of those areas and suddenly in many years to come people would be saying 'they didn't want it like that', 'its overgrown now', 'where are the plains', 'why are there less animals?' etc etc.

One has to be careful in how we manage (balance) development as we can, by overzealous management kill the very thing we are seeking to preserve.
These things are documented - not pie in the sky stuff.

I'm not supporting Moondog55's slant on life but there is more to environmental management than meets the (immediate) eye.

NNW posted while I was - thats the sort of thing I am referring to in some areas we now say are pristine wilderness, lets keep it like that.

[Moondog55]

I am with you NNW.

I remember seeing photos of the Main Range KNP before the cattle where kicked out, compared to what the Main Range looks like now the place was nearly a desert, they are still working on the damage caused by grazing.

Tony

I concede that point; Mt Hotham and Bogong too, but that was in the days when cattle were thought to be "Self managing" and that was well before my time but the cattlemen who ran those cattle themselves were surprised by the recovery plots set aside in the late 1940s early 1950s.
That's the trouble with hindsight; but the cattlemen themselves were very friendly people and always willing to let us share the huts, cooking fires and a cuppa tea.
Things are different now than they were, they will be different again in the future, I have to ask why, if people get upset by the damage that used to be caused by cattle they can get upset when there is an organised shoot and poisoning of the wild horses up there, as now it is the feral animals doing all the damage. Can't be the cattle, they left years ago.

Have any of you walked in the Mt Samaria area recently?? Totally overrun by feral pigs and packs of wild dogs

[tsangpo]

Don't particularly want to enter this argument being new here, but two of the major pests that moondog mentions; deer and brumbies would cause a massive outcry by hunters and mountain cattlemen's association respectively if they were properly and methodically hunted by Parks (as I believe they should be).

[Liamy77]

maybe they should just catch em themselves as a new income? venison is tasty.... easier to ride than walk too - works with the wild camels and brumbys in the outback after all....

[Moondog55]

Don't particularly want to enter this argument being new here, but two of the major pests that moondog mentions; deer and brumbies would cause a massive outcry by hunters and mountain cattlemen's association respectively if they were properly and methodically hunted by Parks (as I believe they should be).

They are, often but not often enough to kill them all off, trouble with hunting deer is that sambar are NOT herd animals and do not gather together in the same way horses and camels do, so much harder to destroy with helicopters and machine guns ( or automatic weapons anyway )
One of the reasons that Sambar do so little damage ( only compared to wild horses that is ) is the fact that they do not form large groups and each animal has a very large home range.

[north-north-west]

\... they can get upset when there is an organised shoot and poisoning of the wild horses up there....

I'm not. Getting rid of ferals is always good, whatever the species. Although targeting the human variety probably would cause a few problems.

[Moondog55]

\... they can get upset when there is an organised shoot and poisoning of the wild horses up there....

I'm not. Getting rid of ferals is always good, whatever the species. Although targeting the human variety probably would cause a few problems.

Collective "They"
Personally I get upset, I hate to see all that valuable meat wasted, horsemeat is almost as good as bison

Easy to target feral humans; just cut off the dole money ( LOL just kind of joking )

Hindsight again, a lot of these animals ( deer ) were let loose when the venison market collapsed and the farmers felt bad about simply slaughtering the animals and letting the carcasses rot

[north-north-west]

Well, something needs to be done soon, because with the drought breaking their numbers are absolutely exploding. Lately I've seen them in frequently places where I've never seen even one single old footprint.

Trouble is you cant's really poison the buggers without getting a lot of natives as well.

I hate to see all that valuable meat wasted

It's not all wasted. There are plenty of raptors and other scavengers who will make use of it. But if you want to hike in and collect a few carcasses, be my guest. There's a big mob who hang out near Mt Jim/Young Spur. They'd be easy targets.

[Moondog55]

Seen them many times, once the whole mob ran through our camp when I had the kids with me.
Ever noticed how that big pile of manure left by the stallion never seems to get any smaller??

I'd be happy to pack a rifle in and eat fresh horsemeat but unfortunately that is not allowed and while I may rant a bit and whinge about the rules I do tend to abide by them. even the ones I disagree with

[Moondog55]

Funny thing is that I can carry a rifle if I have a hunting permit and Sambar are my target, just not allowed to shoot anything else, so it isn't allowed to shoot the wild cats dogs foxes horse etc

[Greenie]

Just wondering why Deer not considered pest?

[north-north-west]

Just wondering why Deer not considered pest?

By anyone sensible, they are. Trouble is, the deer hunters have a very loud lobby and, thus, more political power, so extermination is not permitted. They'd have nothing to hunt, then. It's a bit like trout, although at least the authorities don't have a breeding and releasing program for deer.