Macpac Resolution ( EVent ) Jacket

[nakedape]

Wow,

Roger, thanks for saving me a bucket o' money on what appears to be a(nother) over-priced, under-performing product. And, in response to some posts - Yes it is Macpac's problem, they designed the jacket and chose the materials. Responsibility for the products failure lies with the brand name - this is not unique to macpac but in this case its their fault!

We can also add Mont Hydronaute to the list of crap jackets - mine wets out regardless of treatments (DWR applied 3 times but...). Mont can aslo be added to the crap customer service list - you just dont hear back from them !

So what does work? And, I'd prefer not to hear from company spoke-persons with a product or agenda to push - who might I be thinking of Balcksheep?

nakedape

[blacksheep]

naked ape, have a banana and re-read my posts. I am not dodging anything. From all reports my staff are working with a customer with an issue on a product that was affected by the environment it was used in.
So you are mad because one company does not reply, and mad because an owner of Macpac replies in a forum to a customer question?

[MarcW]

Hi All

I read a comment above that sticking the jacket in the dryer sets the DWR. I actually iron mine (as per the instructions) after it gets wet a couple of times and usually always before I expect to get wet. Have not had any problems with it and really like it to be honest, as with the rest of MacPac products.

Regards

[norts]

Lets get back to my jacket. I have received the jacket and am about to wash it. I am disappointed that Macpac didnt wash it and then test the DWR as i said when I returned the jacket it was wetting out before it got dirty and sooty.
i feel that it is more than a coincidence that both jackets are wetting out in the same place.
My question to you Blacksheep, before I go ahead and wash it as per instructions, what will Macpac do if it still wets out, I dont want to get into an arguement that i washed it incorrectly, this is the reason that I originally returned it before cleaning it.

Your team seemed to focus on the dirt rather than the what happened before the dirt.


Roger

[blacksheep]

Lets get back to my jacket. I have received the jacket and am about to wash it. I am disappointed that Macpac didnt wash it and then test the DWR as i said when I returned the jacket it was wetting out before it got dirty and sooty.
i feel that it is more than a coincidence that both jackets are wetting out in the same place.
My question to you Blacksheep, before I go ahead and wash it as per instructions, what will Macpac do if it still wets out, I dont want to get into an arguement that i washed it incorrectly, this is the reason that I originally returned it before cleaning it.

Your team seemed to focus on the dirt rather than the what happened before the dirt.


Roger

Roger my e-mail is [email protected]
I'm totally comitted to the product we make, and will make sure you are happy. It was pointed out to me that forums are like a village, and would I normally want to involve the village idiot in my discussions( clearly i am not referring to yourself)...so I'm happy to follow up with you via e-mail, and you may share any of the outcomes as you wish, hope that suits?

[etrangere]

Personally I think that was the smartest thing to do. What we have here is a customer with a genuine complaint and a service provider who genuinely wishes to resolve the issue. The problem with airing your dirty laundry in public (pardon the pun) is that you have 100 spectators with thumbs up or thumbs down ready to feed you to the lions interjecting. Once the issue has been concluded then each person can post their view and the issue can rest. Lets hope its a win/win for both concerned.

[norts]

Thats fine thank you Cam.

I will email you with the outcome of the washing.

I didnt think my post would cause such a reaction, i am naive.

Roger

[corvus]

Thats fine thank you Cam.

I will email you with the outcome of the washing.

I didnt think my post would cause such a reaction, i am naive.

Roger

No Roger very smart and keep us posted with the outcome,one of the reasons I bought a Microlite was your good feedback on it.
corvus

[nakedape]

naked ape, have a banana and re-read my posts. I am not dodging anything. From all reports my staff are working with a customer with an issue on a product that was affected by the environment it was used in.
So you are mad because one company does not reply, and mad because an owner of Macpac replies in a forum to a customer question?

I was about to say that noone was suggesting that you were dodging the issue - but on reflection that's exactly what you (Macpac - not you personly) have done right up to the point that you thought your brand name might suffer. Norts did the right thing by returning the jacket, but got the company line and if he'd not opened the issue to scrutiny then that's what he'd still be getting. No one, especially not yourself, should be congratulating macpac for for doing the decent thing after being embarrassed into it. I have no doubt that you will earnestly attend to the issue at hand re Norts' jacket but it should never have gotten this far

It's not just Macpac who are the villans either. It seems that many of the major outdoor companies are addicted to the quick sale mentallity driven by the sudden demand by slack-packers and its affecting quality and customer service - just look at Sea to Summit and their gaiters - my previous complaint about Mont - previous posts re Scarpa and outdoor agencies - komperdell - Mountain designs sales Tactics - and Kathmandu with their perpetual quasi sales - Goretex and its numerous issues.

There was a time that buying from certain marks meant reliability and value, when faulty products were simply replaced - but I guess the need for short term profit outways long-term viability .

So here's your challenge Blacksheep - convince us, the end user, that your products are as good as they used to be and that you'll stand by the product WITHOUT the need for people to resort to public forums. Till then I guess its up to the village idiots to keep you honest- over to you ...

PS - I hate bananas, the tag's a Darwinian reference

[slparker]

Norts - cut the sleeves off - no more problems....

[norts]

An update on my jacket
Taken awhile but Cam has come through and I will be taking my jacket back to Macpac in the next couple of weeks(have to get time to get to Hobart) and it will be replaced.
Cams reason and for taking so long and I am not sore about that is that he wanted to replace it with one from a totally different production of fabric.

Roger

[corvus]

An update on my jacket
Taken awhile but Cam has come through and I will be taking my jacket back to Macpac in the next couple of weeks(have to get time to get to Hobart) and it will be replaced.
Cams reason and for taking so long and I am not sore about that is that he wanted to replace it with one from a totally different production of fabric.

Roger

Roger,
Thanks for the update,from your comments does that mean that Macpac suspects a batch of fabric to be poor quality/faulty? nice "can of worms" there
Keep us informed when you try out the replacement jacket please.
corvus

[blacksheep]

actually no, it does not mean that. Rogers issue I still maintain is from fine paticle contamination, and the DWR is restorable. However I'll send his jacket back to the US to confirm, and to replace the colour and style we didn't have any instock ( we totally sold out or eVent, and there are so many happy customers!) so he had to wait for a new production run to fullfill my promise to replace his jacket.

[Liamy77]

does anyone else think it a bit odd to design a walking / camping / outdoors jacket in a material that WONT perform properly if you happen to go somewhere near a campfire / scrubby bush????
REGARDLESS OF BRAND BTW

I know i for one would expect it to last more than a couple of weeks on the hop... bit hard to visit a laundrmat / find a powerpoint on the SWT for instance....

At least and customer service prevailed in the end?

But I guess if its still waterproof when wet its just sweat and scoparia to worry about really - untill a better (ie smoke and scrub proof) material comes out as the "holy grail". so i guess walk slower / remove some layers on the move (ie reduce sweat)- we just need some kinda motorbike kevlar arm gaiters or somethin?

Last edited by Liamy77 on Wed 11 Aug, 2010 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[blacksheep]

learn about fine particles like ash dust and DWR Liamy77...read up about chemical and molecular bonding. Then please invent something that exceeds the current limitations and realities of textile finishing (and while you are at it, please invent a polymer that can 'hold on" to a DWR, and flame ret ardency and a high visibility please- despite this currently being impossible some of our customers ask for this..)
that is why grangers/ nikwax etc exist...

[Liamy77]

learn about fine particles like ash dust and DWR Liamy77...read up about chemical and molecular bonding. Then please invent something that exceeds the current limitations and realities of textile finishing (and while you are at it, please invent a polymer that can 'hold on" to a DWR, and flame ret ardency and a high visibility please- despite this currently being impossible some of our customers ask for this..)
that is why grangers/ nikwax etc exist...

I understand that it works that way, i even understand most of how it happens - yes i have a science degree.... i also understand why you are being defensive - I realise that the ideal fabric isn't around yet, and have never put myself out there as a textile researcher ( but if i stumble apon it i will happily bank your checks!! )
All I am getting at is that the current available coats still have major issues when compared with how we walkers want to use them. Better by far than doin a nudey-run or wearing a placky bag granted, but still a long way to go yet considering that as an outer layer they are not scoparia proof and don't work properly if you go near smoke.... this ought to make you happy Cam - it means job security for you (and better gear for us to look forward to)

Last edited by Liamy77 on Wed 11 Aug, 2010 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[photohiker]

Another data point (or three)

1. Mont Hydronaut Pro Jacket. Worn consistently for many days in the rain, used as a ski jacket, day walks, etc. etc. DWR had broken down, sleeves and parts of the front were wetting out. I rang Mont and asked what to do: -> Wash with techwash, treat on the outside only with techwash spray on DWR (whatever its called) This is different from the Goretex directions, applying dwr to the inside of Hydronaut messes with the membrane operation. Result: Perfectly restored performance.

2. Paramo Jacket and trousers. Used in the TGO Challenge, continuous 14 days in the wind and rain etc. Worked well for the entire event, but ran out of puff walking in the rain upon my return. (This is not a membrane based system, it uses multilayer polyester, the inside layer/s being a 'pump liner' that removes moisture to the outside of the garment) Followed Label directions are to techwash and then use the wash-in DWR treatment while wet (either in machine or by hand). Result: Perfectly restored performance.

3. MD Goretex Jacket. This is an old one, heavy duty fabric and passed down to one of my sons. DWR was long dead. Techwash and wash-in DWR restored it for another perfect result.

Conclusion: I was surprised at how well the DWR restoration worked, and how easy it was to do. All of these 'waterproof' garments rely on a working DWR. Using the proscribed or similar DWR rejuvenation methods and products returns the garments to 100% working performance. I suspect that even garments with minor abrasions and pin pricks would be better with a working DWR than not. Sorry I didn't have an Event jacket to test, but all donations gratefully received.

[Liamy77]

it would make sense -as if the water is shed it can't soak in to even reach the pin prick holes ... cant say ive often had particularly dry walkin clothes after a few days in the bush anyway....

[walkinTas]

It is really a great thing that we have a forum where we can have discussions like this. I imagine this is the sort of discussion a group of bushwalkers might well have at the end of a days walk. Right now might be a good time to remind everyone that these discussion work best if everyone sticks to arguing discussing the topic (play the ball) and doesn't focus on individuals (don't play the man).

[Ent]

Another data point (or three)

1. Mont Hydronaut Pro Jacket. Worn consistently for many days in the rain, used as a ski jacket, day walks, etc. etc. DWR had broken down, sleeves and parts of the front were wetting out. I rang Mont and asked what to do: -> Wash with techwash, treat on the outside only with techwash spray on DWR (whatever its called) This is different from the Goretex directions, applying dwr to the inside of Hydronaut messes with the membrane operation. Result: Perfectly restored performance.

2. Paramo Jacket and trousers. Used in the TGO Challenge, continuous 14 days in the wind and rain etc. Worked well for the entire event, but ran out of puff walking in the rain upon my return. (This is not a membrane based system, it uses multilayer polyester, the inside layer/s being a 'pump liner' that removes moisture to the outside of the garment) Followed Label directions are to techwash and then use the wash-in DWR treatment while wet (either in machine or by hand). Result: Perfectly restored performance.

3. MD Goretex Jacket. This is an old one, heavy duty fabric and passed down to one of my sons. DWR was long dead. Techwash and wash-in DWR restored it for another perfect result.

Conclusion: I was surprised at how well the DWR restoration worked, and how easy it was to do. All of these 'waterproof' garments rely on a working DWR. Using the proscribed or similar DWR rejuvenation methods and products returns the garments to 100% working performance. I suspect that even garments with minor abrasions and pin pricks would be better with a working DWR than not. Sorry I didn't have an Event jacket to test, but all donations gratefully received.

Hi Michael

On point one it is my reading that Gore-tex recommend a spray on DWR treatment while eVent recommends a wash in one (which means both sides of the fabric get it).

How did your eVent mittens work or did you not use them? I have found mine ok but hands still sweat up so no wonder product peformance. Having not used Gore-tex mittens I have not base to compare them against but prefer the Gore-tex Slik weight Windstopper gloves apart for the fact walking pole grips kill them.

I agree that proper washing care with my Gore-tex Pro shell jacket performs as good as the day it was brought and I wash and machine dry it at the end of a walk if I used a fair bit on the walk. This is in line with the instructions. Must admit though a seamingly endless number of people have told me to only wash it once a year despite the instructions saying otherwise. Never had a problem with it wetting out despite the conditions that it has encountered and now think it is well worth the massive initial price. On the original ultra tough Gore-tex shell you mention I wonder what it takes to kill one as twenty years on I still see them wandering the tracks on people with battered packs and gaiters.

Cheers Brett

[Liamy77]

By the way i still give Macpac full respect for going with the best materials (in their opinion) currently available, despite the extra marketing / hard ball tactics of the competition materials (ie gore).... I have used some great macpac gear (just not used this particular jacket)
Just to set the record straight on my views of it all ....

[photohiker]

How did your eVent mittens work or did you not use them? I have found mine ok but hands still sweat up so no wonder product peformance. Having not used Gore-tex mittens I have not base to compare them against but prefer the Gore-tex Slik weight Windstopper gloves apart for the fact walking pole grips kill them.

I've updated the Winter Gloves thread. If your hands are still sweating in them I suspect you are using them in weather too warm Horses for courses, I think. When I did use them, they were really good, but there were not many suitable occasions to do that on my walk. Hardly any weight, so no bother really.

[norts]

Got my new jacket on Saturday.
Thank you Macpac for coming through with your customer service.
I liked the new shop in Hobart. Hobart is a good place to look at walking gear now all the shops(other than Kathmandu) within close walking distance of each other. Handy for us gear freaks.

Put the jacket on the line and gave it a good hit with a garden hose. Was good to see the water just beading and running straight off.

Roger

[Carl]

Hi everyone, I have been supplying performance waterproof breathable fabric (WPB), and downproof fabrics from Japan for over 10 years. Most of our fabrics are used in hiking garments. I have been following this interesting thread and thought I would wade in with some comments.

I have seen some great technological advances which has increased the water resistance and breathability of WPB fabrics. Unfortunately no fabric supplier has been able to make a perfect DWR treatment that will last forever. A shame as the DWR is a very important component of a WPB fabric. Most garment manufacturers are using the best DWR available to them, it just isn't a perfect technology (yet).

A DWR is designed to keep the face fabric clean and dry to keep it as breathable as possible. If a DWR does not exist or needs restored, the fabric will wet out. This means the fabric will become heavier (more uncomfortable) and will reduce the amount of moisture vapour (sweat) passing through the membrane. A fabric with no DWR will have no negative effect on the water resistance, only the breathability.

The best thing you can do to keep the DWR effective, is to care for your garment. It sounds like most of you already appreciate this, but there are many people out there who don't. Anytime the garment is used contaminants will attach to the face fabric preventing the DWR from working correctly. A contaminant may be dirt, sweat, oils or soot. Also heavy abrasion can reduce or remove the DWR. If a fabric is wetting out in one place on a garment, it is most likely due to contamination or heavy abrasion. If a fabric is wetting out everywhere and evenly, then it could be due to an incorrect application from the manufacturer (if the garment is new), or it needs to be cleaned and re-treated.

Most of the time a correct wash (which includes a good rinse to remove all of the cleaning product) and dry will remove the soiling and restore the DWR. Cleaning the garment will help the DWR but it is important to use heat, as a DWR is reactivated by heat. I recommend a cool tumble dry, followed by a dry iron. Some contaminants like oil and chemicals are harder to remove or may permanently reduce the DWR.

Note that each time a garment is washed, the DWR performance will reduce a little (hence the performance rating 80% over 20 home launderings). The performance of a washed, cleaned garment will be far superior to a dirty garment. I believe you should wash a garment as soon as you get back home to maximize its performance and longevity.

But because no DWR technology is perfect, you may need to apply a new DWR treatment to the fabric. Someone pointed out that some manufacturers recommend a wash in treatment, others recommend a spray in treatment. This is because some water proof membranes work in different ways.

A microporous membrane (which is often described as having millions of tiny holes) is hydrophobic meaning it hates water. So it can transfer perspiration vapour, while repelling water. A wash in DWR restorer is fine for this membrane.

An alternative is a solid hydrophillic membrane which is water-loving. This works differently, one side of the membrane actually absorbs water/ perspiration and transfers it to the face fabric. If you used a wash in DWR restorer it will coat the face fabric and the membrane. This means you have added a water repellency treatment to a membrane that works by absorbing water. It wont be as breathable anymore. A spray on DWR restorer is best for these fabrics. If you don't know what type of membrane you have then a spray on DWR is the better option (or ask the supplier).

Also I note that some fabrics will hold a better DWR longer than others. It is not due to the 'quality' of the fabric at all, but to the type of yarn and the fabric weave. Basically if the same DWR treatment is used, a flat fabric will hold a DWR longer then a textured fabric. By textured I mean a fancy weave, larger denier yarn or texturised yarn like spun or false twist. But flat fabrics are generally lighter, shinier and not durable enough for hiking especially in Australasia. Personally I use a heavier textured fabric for hiking, the DWR will not last as long but the jacket will last a lot longer. I prefer the more natural fibre look and feel of a textured fabric. My personal preference.

Also someone else suggested a three layer fabric is better for hiking compared to a 2.5 layer (no lining or tricot layer). Yes it is, it will be more durable and provides more protection of the membrane. And if seam tape is coming off a garment, the best thing to do is to remove the affected tape and apply new seam tape. I would not recommend using glue.

I hope this has helped some people. I didn't realise I would write so much but most of you seem genuinely interested in your gear and the technology it uses.
Before some people on the forum ask, I do not supply the eVent fabric to Macpac. I just wanted to point out my knowledge and experience on DWR treatments that apply to all WPB fabrics.

Carl.

[Pantera]

Dam I bought a MacPac event a few months ago. Wish I had read this before.

Who would ever have guessed that these DWR materials are so complicated to maintain!

[norts]

It's still a good jacket. My new jacket was given a really good workout a few weeks ago.
Breathes really well. Its just high maintenance.
Macpac service is till very good.
I would still use my old oringi jacket if i was going to head into some serious scrub. That thing is tough as nails as half the price, but doesnt breath very well.

Roger

[corvus]

Carl,
A really good post thank you
c

[Ent]

Hi All

My new eVent Montane Venture Jacket and Rab Alphine pants arrived. They are medium weight but at under $160 dollars (sorry bank fees missing so $170) each I thought the price not bad so decided to give them a go. Interesting both garments were covered in large labels wanting/demanding frequent washing. My Gore-tex stuff did not have this labelling so maybe eVent needs a bit more washing to hold up. However, I do wash my Gore stuff if used big time on a walk anyway so no hassles. Be curious to see how the stuff performs as on the weekend the Gore-tex stuff coped a massive work out and came through with flying colours. The Proshell jacket and Performance/Proshell pants (both Paddy Pallin brand) are my gear of choice for a good old fashion scrub bash while the medium weight eVent stuff will be reserved for more civilised walks.

Cheers

[Atlant]

Hi all,
Seems like I have a problem similar to described in the first post.
I bought my Macpac Resolution jacket in the beginning of 2010 and put through the first real test in May hiking the Overland Track.
As most of you would expect it was raining and snowing for all 10 days I was on the track.
Jacket became wet in the first 2 hours of the first day.
Sleeves below elbow were soaking wet.
Water in closed pockets, plus wet stripes long seams.
It would become completely wet pretty much every day after that but I was kind of OK with that because I could dry it quite quickly at the huts.
When I came back home I washed with a special liquid wash and left out for 6 months. My next trip to Tasmania (Overland track again) in October 2010 – same performance.
Have to note that it was my first expensive jacket and even with the performance I described above I was happy with it. I was under impression that everything leaks – there is no 100% waterproof fabric around. But today I went to MacPac store in Melbourne CBD looking for a lighter Event jacket and had a pretty good talk with one of the sales people. Apparently my jacket is not supposed to get wet. What a surprise!
He recommended to bring my jacket and sent it back to MacPac for assessment. I decided to do some research in the Internet and found a couple of reports similar to this (above).
I love all items I bought from MacPac and would be happy if this jacket can perform even better than I thought.

[corvus]

Interesting post Atlant you obviously have more patience than I have to accept poor performance of your Jacket especially twice.
Good to hear the Macpac store employee took your problem on board and that your jacket is being sent back for appraisal ,be good if you can share the outcome with us.
corvus