New pack

[bushbasherbrad]

Gday im thinkink about getting a new pack but i dom't no wether to go syntheic or canvas or what brand?
I currently have a Oztrail 75ltr but it jst doesnt seem to have enough space for all the essentials for a multi-day trip.
I'm open to any advice or suggestions.
Cheers Brad.

[tasadam]

Welcome to the forum Brad.
I don't know the pack you have, but I have a 75 litre pack and it's got heaps of room for all my stuff & camera gear.
How many days in your multi day are you thinking? I did 15 days or so in this walk...
Granted I was with my wife, she has the Macpac Esprit which is 65 litres. My pack was the Macpac Cascade FL 75 litre.
I did close to 20 years with the Macpac Ravine 65 litre pack.

Maybe you'd like to put together a detailed equipment list and we can all have a look at all your gear and see if there are other ways you'd be better spending, rather than carry more, pack less?
Happy to help further if I can.
Cheers!

[Nuts]

yer, good advice.
also,
*there is a chance that your oztrail pack is only pretending to be 75L
*if you really are a 'bushbasher' you'll need something pretty tough, either canvas or well reinforced synthetic
*if you bought the oztrail to save $ maybe you can find better value from overseas? try sierratradingpost.com

hope this helps?

[Ent]

Welcome to the forum Brad.
I don't know the pack you have, but I have a 75 litre pack and it's got heaps of room for all my stuff & camera gear.
How many days in your multi day are you thinking? I did 15 days or so in this walk...
Granted I was with my wife, she has the Macpac Esprit which is 65 litres. My pack was the Macpac Cascade FL 75 litre.
I did close to 20 years with the Macpac Ravine 65 litre pack.

Maybe you'd like to put together a detailed equipment list and we can all have a look at all your gear and see if there are other ways you'd be better spending, rather than carry more, pack less?
Happy to help further if I can.
Cheers!

Wow twenty years, that must have been some trip

As Nuts says the type of walking will govern the type of pack. Modern gear can pack up nicely but if you are XXL rather than M the do not be suprised if your pack needs to be 20-25% bigger. The best of the traditional packs appears to be the One Planet range (Made in Australia ) with a great harness system with the classic being the McMillan in the range. Of course some will differ in that opinion Not noticed anyone walking away from the OP range unless heading for lighter or specialised harness system such as the Aarn balance system. A good quality all nylon pack can save over a kilogram if not two compared to the canvas style so Osprey might be worth a look. In that case as Nuts points out buying direct from the USA is much cheaper but you take a big risk that the harness you get will be the wrong size so buying locally from a shop that will fit a pack to you is often worth the money. Beware, fitting packs is a bit more specialised than what a lot of Kathmandu staff can manage so if you are paying a lot make sure the person knows what they are doing.

Cheers Brett

[tasadam]

Wow twenty years, that must have been some trip

No, but it sure was a great pack. Still is, but that because it's old I don't trust it on the big trips any more, I've mentioned before that picking a heavy load up by the same strap for so long, surely it's starting to suffer. Besides, the new pack is somewhat more comfortable.

[eddie the eagle]

HI Brad,

I use a Macpac Ravine as well (eBay, purchased about 4 yrs ago virtually unused.) It's a really good pack (designed as a rope pack for mountaineering, I believe, so there's nothing hanging on the outside that'll snag, top loading pack only.) It'll carry enough for a multi day hike as a leader's pack, with about 10-15L of stuff that's not normally carried by most (collapsible group water container, filters, full first aid kit, compasses, small amount of spare food for those that underpacked or overate, EPIRB, UHF radio, an extra 1.5L water for those that run out, etc...) I thought that the Ravine was 70-75L, but I'll defer to Adam on this one - he's far more knowledgeable and it seems a bit smaller than 75L to me as well.

Campbell - I know it's discontinued, but the design has worked well for me. Just a datapoint. For walking, if there was a separate access to the bottom half of the pack so you could access it easier (good zip concealed under a (vecro) flap - don't know the technical term,) and a bit bigger top flap storage compartment, it'd be an ideal design **in my opinion** for walking. The first aid kit (two large bright red pencil cases,) takes up a fair portion of the flap. When I was young and silly, I used to multi-rope abseil down the Bungonia gorge walls(460m,)internal caves/sinkholes then prussik/jumar back up. I know why the second zip would be not required on a mountaineering pack.

edit: Brad, you may not be using stuffsacks/compression sacks. THese are **really** useful in saving space, just in case this is the problem.

As Adam said, if you put up a gear list, it'd help.

As an addendum, here's what I have beginners bring on a trip, before they've sunk a lot into walking gear. I use ex-hire Outgear packs.

Cheers,

eddie

-------------------addendum-----------gear list below----------------------------
----------------there's something obvious that's missing, found it - gaffer tape ----------------
----------------list for coastal NSW, not Tasmania - weather's warmer, walking simple, no bushbashing, less food and clothing needed ---

To Bring

Clothing

• Spare change of clothes - nylon tracksuit pants (stay away from cotton) Long sleeved lightweight tee-shirt (sunburn)
• Windproof jacket
• (IF NEEDED – warmer jacket in spring/winter/autumn)
• (IF NEEDED – Thermals for winter)
• Full-brim sun hat or Legionnaire’s Cap - NO BASEBALL CAPS
• Raincoat/jacket
• Solid shoes and socks
• Two pairs of socks per day – one light, one heavy
• Change underwear
• Small Towel

Pack
• Sleeping Bag
• Sleeping Mat
• Toiletries – soap, toothbrush, toothpaste. Hand sanitiser.
• Toilet paper,
• Know who’s got the toilet trowel.
• Eating utensils
• Pot scourer/detergent/tea towel (Per cooking group.)
• Torch, including spare globe
• Spare batteries
• Matches/lighter
• Stove (one per two) **I use trangias, so they have inbuilt pots.**
• Fuel (one per two)
• Tent (one per two.)
• Camping Permit
• Map ** I carry an original in a waterproof map case, and give the group a copy of the walk sections in a laminated bundle **
• Compass

Emergency/Repairs
• Whistle
• Emergency blanket
• Emergency food – one dinner, one breakfast
• Pocketknife (adult leaders only)
• Spare shoelaces
• Cable Ties (leaders only)
• Needle and thread (leaders only)
• Gaffer Tape


Personal first aid kit.

• Safety pins
• Sunscreen
• Insect repellent (DEET based for ticks)
• Roll of adhesive tape
• Band aids
• Antiseptic
• Pain killers
• Bandage
• Other medicine as necessary.
• Small container of salt (leeches)
• Lip balm
• Personal hygiene needs

Food/Drink

• Drink Bottle - FULL
• Two full water bottles (min 1.25L each – empty soft drink bottle)
• Water treatment
• Garbage Bags
• Plates and Mug (unbreakable.)
• Knife/fork/spoon
• FOOD
• Low GI snacks for walking – nuts, etc…

Other
• Camera
• Participants’ Permission Notes/Medical Waivers (leaders)
• Asthma plan (if needed)
• Emergency Folder (leaders only)
• GPS (leaders)

Cheers,

eddie

[tasadam]

I thought that the Ravine was 70-75L, but I'll defer to Adam on this one - he's far more knowledgeable and it seems a bit smaller than 75L to me as well.

The Ravine of 20 years ago is quite a different pack to the Ravine of today.

[eddie the eagle]

HI Adam,

They stopped making the pack a while ago, I believe.

THe pack seems smaller than the 75L, I think you're right.

CHeers,

eddie

Feel free to delete this post - just tried to get to the online equipment calculator - link's disabled as at 30 June as you're aware.

Could you please advise the new link/redirect/instructions on how to get there?

[Son of a Beach]

just tried to get to the online equipment calculator - link's disabled as at 30 June as you're aware.

Could you please advise the new link/redirect/instructions on how to get there?

Thanks for letting me know of the broken link. It's fixed now. http://bushwalk.com/inventory/ or http://bushwalk.com/inventory/

[blacksheep]

Cheers eddie, as a matter of fact 2 of the classic models- the Torre and the Ravine, are coming back! Due out in October as part of our 2011 line, both these single compartment models in 12oz canvas will be re-released- both of these designs are favoured by those with the tendency gto be very hard on gear. Our Glissade pack is the model that perhpas is closest to the pack you describe..cheers, Cam

[eddie the eagle]

Thanks Campbell,

I really like the single opening pack for general use - just if I get wet gear (eg: tent,) I'd like the option to stow it away from the rest at the bottom of the pack and get to it easily. At the moment, I pack it separately, but need to take out the waterproof liner first, which means completely unpacking the pack to get to the stuff packed away at the bottom where the water drains away.

A slightly larger top pocket would prove useful **in my experience** - maybe an extra 1 inch or so in pocket depth would make all the difference and would allow the small bits and pieces to be kept separately. The little plastic carabiner on the Macpac Ravine that's tucked away in the back flap to keep your car keys secure, Campbell, is a great idea and worthy of keeping in the design. This avoids the keys falling out when you have lunch, adding five hours to your day's walk. (Don't ask me how I know that.)

Others may have a different view - Adam??

Cheers,

eddie
(watching the thread morph into a 'what are the ideal features in a pack' type discussion, and ensuring that this is my last post on this topic to ensure that a balanced view develops, not my opinions only.)

[bushbasherbrad]

The Pack i have was a cheepie that i picked up at mu local allgoods store and here is the list of what I pack:
Down sleeping bag
Self inflating matress
Spare t-shirt
Wolley trousers
One pair of thermals(top and bottom)
Gondwana jumper
Jacket
Freeze dried food
Head torch
First Aid kit
Camera
Whistle
Camp shoes
Plate,Bowl,kife,fork and spoon
All the clothing goes in a Sea to summit compression sac
Plus dad carries the tent and trangia.
My Brother has a mountain designs 75ltr pack and that is excellent and has plenty of room

[PTCB]

Have just replaced my old pack with with an Osprey Argon 85 pack. I couldn't be happier. A bit blingy as it has all the essentials, but light and very comfortable. On recent walks with 28 to 30 kg in it( it's cavernous inside )I could hop all over the place with it on, a very confident pack to wear. As far as durability is concerned it's tough, these were the packs used on the cannibal run through the west coast of Tassie a while back ( check out the details via Paddy Pallins site ). I picked mine up on sale so wasn't a bad price, then again for a top of the range pack you get what you pay for. I couldn't recomend it more highly.

[blacksheep]

quite simply if you want durabable water resistance and toughness for our conditions you probably want canvas. that narrows it down to macpac, one planet , mont, W.E and maybe md's. If you don't mind lighter weight fabrics that will tear easier and PU coatings that will flake away sooner than you'd want then you have a much wider range to choose from...

[PTCB]

quite simply if you want durabable water resistance and toughness for our conditions you probably want canvas. that narrows it down to macpac, one planet , mont, W.E and maybe md's. If you don't mind lighter weight fabrics that will tear easier and PU coatings that will flake away sooner than you'd want then you have a much wider range to choose from...

No doubt Macpac make good gear. It's reputation is well earned. However there ARE other good options, and properly maintained and looked after packs will last forever!! It's the old Ford v Holden debate isn't it?
Just like girlfriends, treat em right and they will always be there...BaaaaaaBaaaaaaa

[blacksheep]

quite simply if you want durabable water resistance and toughness for our conditions you probably want canvas. that narrows it down to macpac, one planet , mont, W.E and maybe md's. If you don't mind lighter weight fabrics that will tear easier and PU coatings that will flake away sooner than you'd want then you have a much wider range to choose from...

No doubt Macpac make good gear. It's reputation is well earned. However there ARE other good options, and properly maintained and looked after packs will last forever!! It's the old Ford v Holden debate isn't it?
Just like girlfriends, treat em right and they will always be there...BaaaaaaBaaaaaaa

If you re-read you'll see I'm talking about materials, not brands..ever seen a good PU coating on a 20 year old pack? a lightweight nylon that hasn't torn after 5 years of off track use? I like the idea that sustainability begings with quality products that last..
(and I'd go a subaru over either ford or holden if I may )

[casey79]

I would agree with Canvas v Nylon.

Over the last 12 years I have had 2 hiking packs.

The 1st I got was a nylon Low Alpine pack in 1998 it was a little small at 65lt for multi day walks and guiding so after a couple of years I got a MD's Canvas pack in 2000. I had stored the Low pack in various cupboards over the years with no outside use and went to sell it on ebay in 2007 and all of the plastic (PU) coating on the inside of the fabric was flaking off thus off to the bin for it.

The canvas pack is now 10 years old with 5 years of over 100 days of guiding use a year plus my own personal holiday and mountaineering trips. Since my guiding days have slowed down it still gets approx 25 days use a year. A total of about 700 days use in total. The bag looks old and I have replaced the lid zip and a few buckles but the only damage to the fabric is a hole from an ice axe.

I am close to getting a new pack (the md's harness is getting a bit long in the tooth and 700 days is a fair use) and I will not hesitate to get another canvas pack. I will try out WE, OP and macpac and buy whichever is the most comfortable.

[Ent]

Hi

The One Planet has a clip for the car keys in the lid compartment. Very useful as with another brand a long walk back up was averted when eagle eyes spotted the keys had slipped out unnoticed next to the car. Now was that before the trip or after the trip? Not to sure in that case but love the feature of a secured key holding clip of OP. The toughest pack would have to be the OP Stiletto in my opinion which is re-enforced in the critical wear areas as it is designed as a mountaineering pack. Not too bad at 2.7 kilograms and is a simple top loader. The drink bottle holders of the Exact Fit Plus Harness are excellent and are not compromised by a full pack unlike some other brands' designs. The only request I make of any pack manufacturer is a pocket say between the harness and pack that can take a map with minimum of folds. I was impressed when a walker would whip in out his map from behind his back while I struggled with yoga moves to get mine or more often just gave in and asked a fellow walker to retrieve my map.

I must admit I am a fan of the canvas spun over nylon or mixed in type material in the heavy weight as packs such as OP and WE along with a spate of NZ brands no longer available achieving very long life from such materials. The only downside is weight with most having at least a one kilogram penalty over similar size all nylon packs. Worthwhile noting that gaiters will often use such canvas material. I suppose it is as usual a matter of trade-offs and what suits you best. Nylon packs such as the Osprey have a good reputation for been tough enough but not sure on their long term performance with age. I have a Deuter all nylon pack and age has not weird it but it harness has me

Cheers Brett

[eddie the eagle]

The Pack i have was a cheepie that i picked up at mu local allgoods store and here is the list of what I pack:
Down sleeping bag

Spare t-shirt
Wolley trousers
One pair of thermals(top and bottom)
Gondwana jumper
Jacket
All the clothing goes in a Sea to summit compression sac

Freeze dried food

Head torch
First Aid kit
Camera
Whistle
Camp shoes
Plate,Bowl,kife,fork and spoon

Hi Brad,

Saw the list - there's a lot of (necessary) polar fleece and jacket in there, but you can compare your pack to your brothers' re: capacity. It does sound as though your pack's smaller than the quoted75L, however.

If the down bag doesn't come with a compression sack, you could get an extra few litres of capacity by using another compression sack to carry the sleeping bag in. I've got a strong suspicion that you'd already be using one, however. Just mentioned it in case, as it might be a far cheaper option than buying a new pack if you're still at home/school/uni.

Cheers,

eddie

(also made a minor edit to my last post.)

[sthughes]

Yep for me the One Planet packs with the bottle holders you can reach easily enough and are not squashed by compression straps are a killer feature. The lid on my McMillan is big enough for all my rain gear, anything else I might need during the day goes in the front pocket so there's usually no need to open the main compartment between camps. Also has pretty easy attachment of snow shoes (can add one on either side to keep things balanced). Oh and alloy key clip not plastic :-p Not too expensive at MD's in a 25% off sale
If you don't carry a drink bottle then the WE packs and Mont Backcountry etc are also good, the Macpac Glissade looks like a goer too, albeit a little smaller and heavier.
I had a nylon pack in the past that the PU died on, the second nylon pack I had gave me the *&^%$#@! way too early for me to give the PU a chance to fail.

[tasadam]

My Brother has a mountain designs 75ltr pack and that is excellent and has plenty of room

Brad, if your Allgoods cheapie is the same size, try getting all your gear and packing it in your pack, then pack the same stuff in your brothers pack. At least that will give you a closer idea of size.

From your gear list there should be plenty of room in most packs, how well does your sleeping bag compress? Mine gets down to smaller than a soccer ball. Probably not good for it, but it means I can fit it in.

Being a "cheapie Allgoods" pack, you might want to have a close look at the features it has that you like and don't like, and weigh up whether you think it will be good enough or whether you do indeed need to replace it.

If you do decide to replace, there is a stack of discussion on packs on this forum. Everyone has opinions on what they like and all you can do is take on board what you read here and keep the relevant points in your mind when considering a pack in the shops. It's always best to look at the packs, and to try them on and see whether they fit you properly (some are quite adjustable), and is comfortable WITH a load.
Something else to consider if replacing it is whether you might one day want to walk solo, therefore need to carry everything, so think about that too.

Eddie, to address your question re the pockets etc... I used to have just the top loading and like you, pull everything and the liner out to get to the tent and whatever underneath.
I was very comfortable with how I did things and didn't think I would like a pack that unzips the bottom section.
Now I have the liner bag in the top section, the tent / tyvek , pegs go in the bottom pocket so I can get to it all without having to fully unpack when arriving at camp, it's great. Billy, stove (in billy) and fuel sit under the liner bag so I can get to it either from underneath after removing the tent, or after removing (or emptying) the liner bag. Poles I strap to the side of the pack, usually rolled in the centre of a laminated map. Sits beside the tripod on the outside of the pack, held on by the side compression straps.
Water bottle on other side in little open pocket on outside of pack. Stretchy sort of material, works well but badly grazed by rocks and has a few holes, to be expected because of what it's made of and what I use it for.

My pack has a clip for keys as well, though I usually use it for the pocket knife as I sometimes need it in a hurry and want to know exactly where it is. For example, Scarpa laces covered in snowseal get quite stiff, and sometimes I need the corkscrew on the pocket knife to get hold of the laces to get them undone, easier on the fingers esp. if it's cold.

My current pack has a bit of a design problem in that nearly always when doing up the zipper on the top pocket, the membrane near the zip gets caught in it. So you have to hold it out of the way, which is a bit hard to do if you really load the top pocket up.
My wife's Esprit has a little pocket on the side of the top pocket, my old Ravine had that too, this pocket was great for little things to get your hands on - torch, compass, DEET, sunscreen, whatever. The pocket on the back is great for the bog roll & trowel, 1st aid, and the PLB. One zipper to get to it all, or the PLB goes in the pocket if we're leaving the packs at camp for a while.

More info here than just packs I know, more drifting in to how to use the features the pack has.
And yes, it is important to know where the keys are in the pack, and that they are not going to fall out. Hasn't happened to me, thankfully.

If you adopt the mentality that your life depends on every piece of gear you carry, you might be surprised at how aware you become of where everything is. After all, it just might.......

[Ent]

Good point by Tasadam on taking care and looking for the little things. I find when I have to carry something for long distance up hills I become rather focus on everything being just right. A pack that fits and suits your style of walking is a joy while something that is a little annoying in the shop becomes downright frustrating on day two so do be fussy in your selection.

Cheers Brett

[mountnman]

Have just replaced my old pack with with an Osprey Argon 85 pack. I couldn't be happier. A bit blingy as it has all the essentials, but light and very comfortable. On recent walks with 28 to 30 kg in it( it's cavernous inside )I could hop all over the place with it on, a very confident pack to wear. As far as durability is concerned it's tough, these were the packs used on the cannibal run through the west coast of Tassie a while back ( check out the details via Paddy Pallins site ). I picked mine up on sale so wasn't a bad price, then again for a top of the range pack you get what you pay for. I couldn't recomend it more highly.

I'm glad you said that. I put one on layby last weekend!