Use of Stoves in a Total Fire Ban

[tastrax]

Hi Folks,

Well this was the question I asked..

I participate in an online bushwalking forum and a question has arisen about the use of fuels stoves on days of total fire bans. Specifically, are stoves such as a Trangia (that uses metho as its fuel) and portable bushwalkers gas stoves able to be used on a day of total fire ban.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3260&p=35763#p35763 - the reference is here and a few posts above.

If you could supply a suitable response then I could post it on the site (or you could also post a reply by joining the forum).

It may also pay to update the website (http://www.fire.tas.gov.au/mysite/Show? ... ireOutdoor) to specifically show bushwalking type stoves so that there are no misunderstandings. If you need photographs then I am sure forum members could oblige.

and here is the response

Hello Phil

During a total fire ban the Tasmania Fire Service has the legislated responsibility to ban any equipment it feels may act as an ignition source. At present the use of stoves, such as Trangias, in the open air are not exempt from a total fire ban. Only some BBQs are exempt.

It is important to note that only gas or electric BBQs that are fixed, permanent structures are exempt. Portable gas or electric BBQs must be within 20 meters of a permanent dwelling (not a tent or mobile home), be cleared around for 3 meters of vegetation and have a water source of at least 10 litres for fire fighting. These requirements, particularly clearing around for 3 meters, make use of any type of portable BBQ or stove illegal in a national park on a total fire ban day.

Please remember, we are trying to ensure lives are not lost and the environments future is protected in the long term. The use of fire for cooking in any context must be done with care. Any hot, dry windy day may present conditions that are dangerous even if a total fire ban has not been declared. Although communication in remote areas is difficult, ignorance of a total fire ban is not an excuse. Long term weather forecasts can give you an idea of dangerous fire weather up to four days out. I suggest you plan around these forecasts and take some foods which do not require cooking, look at the weather and take care.

John Holloway
Station Officer
Tasmania Fire Service, State Operations
Phone and email removed

[tastrax]

So that would seem to indicate that within one of the walkers huts (permanent dwelling?) that you should be OK but if you are within 20 metres of the huts then you may struggle to find an area suitably cleared of vegetation (and other flammable material) to use as a cooking area... plus you need the ten litres of water.

http://www.fire.tas.gov.au/mysite/Show? ... alFireBans

[Ent]

Content removed by poster

[Nuts]

Well.... I thought the whole idea of a 'fuel stove only' area was that it was a good way to limit the chances of an uncontrolled fire.

[Macca81]

personally, id risk the fine. im always sitting over my stove whem im using, so if in the highly unlikely event that a flame would escape, i would be in a position to extinguish it immediately. a string of highly coincidental and unfortunate events would have to occur at the right time for a bushwalker (who clearly wants to bush to remain so is extra cautious) to start a bushfire.

[north-north-west]

Maybe, but there was a total fire ban day here a couple of years back when we had to cancel an at-work lunchtime barbie - even though we were using the thing in the carpark, just outside a rollerdoor, no vegetation for 100 metres, blah, blah, blah - portable unit, so no go.
They can be pedantic little buggers sometimes.

Just a pity they don't get out in the bush and grab all those effing 4WDers who leave unattended campfires on such days.

[geoskid]

I am VERY surprised. Can't say I am particularly happy about it though - no room for misinterpretation.
I may think it's utter madness, trouble is it's official utter madness, with a (possible?)$5500 fine attached for not conforming. Gawd Blimey.

[Taurë-rana]

Just a pity they don't get out in the bush and grab all those effing 4WDers who leave unattended campfires on such days.

Or those effing fisherpeople, or those effing campers, or those effing 4 wheelers or those effing bushwalkers who don't observe the fuel stove only restrictions.

personally, id risk the fine. im always sitting over my stove whem im using, so if in the highly unlikely event that a flame would escape, i would be in a position to extinguish it immediately. a string of highly coincidental and unfortunate events would have to occur at the right time for a bushwalker (who clearly wants to bush to remain so is extra cautious) to start a bushfire.

Perhaps you're too young to have seen flaming chuffers being flung out of tents on a fairly regular basis.

[Michael_Kingston]

I reckon the odds of getting caught in the middle of the S-W or the central plateau are pretty low - don't often see the fire brigade out there checking. The other problem is that you can be in the bush and NOT even know there is a fire ban. Particularly the case on multi-day walks.

[Steve]

If that were the case I don't reckon you'd be hit with a fine, just informed of the situation. Though if he turned around and you fired the stove straight back up he might rethink slapping you with a big fat fine.

[Lindsay]

It seems that many are outraged that they, as responsible bushwalkers, are penalised for the irresponsible actions of those with less knowlege or experience or who just don't give a stuff. Unfortunately the law is unable to differentiate between the responsible walker and the irresponsible dropkick and therefore must apply to the lowest common denominator. Anyway in extreme contitions there is always the chance, however remote, that even the most responsible person will get it wrong with possibly fatal results.

[Macca81]

Just a pity they don't get out in the bush and grab all those effing 4WDers who leave unattended campfires on such days.

i resent that! i dont leave campfires unattended in the middle of winter, let alone middle of summer! last thing i want is a burning tree falling across the bonnet of my 4wd!

[flyfisher]

i resent that! i dont leave campfires unattended in the middle of winter, let alone middle of summer! last thing i want is a burning tree falling across the bonnet of my 4wd!

Yeah, I resemble that too.

ff

[Nuts]

It seems that many are outraged that they, as responsible bushwalkers, are penalised for the irresponsible actions of those with less knowlege or experience or who just don't give a stuff. Unfortunately the law is unable to differentiate between the responsible walker and the irresponsible dropkick and therefore must apply to the lowest common denominator. Anyway in extreme contitions there is always the chance, however remote, that even the most responsible person will get it wrong with possibly fatal results.

Although this is probably a good statement of 'the way things are' (or have become) it just seems like a completely 'wrong' way to go about making regulations. It's all to easy to let lawmakers take the easy alternative and give up freedoms to pay for them.
By this way of thinking a ban on Carrying stoves (or perhaps lighters) would be ideal?

[tastrax]

In general I don't have a problem with the law/regulations regarding Total Fire Bans. I have only done a small amount of work on the fire front but that is enough for me to realise that sometimes folks just need to be told. Yes, there will always be folks that flout the law - occasionally they get caught and pay for their mistakes. These days many fires are investigated to determine the cause and some prosecutions take place.

I suspect there was time before total fire bans even existed, maybe there was just an education policy, but no doubt someone did a risk analysis and determined that X or Y approach would assist in reducing the incidence of fires at times of high fire danger conditions. I suspect that regulation was second after education. If the regulation fails then maybe they will move to more serious legislation and maybe bans. If we are all good at being careful then maybe that wont happen.

If you have an interest in how fire behaviour interacts with various environments then check out the following

http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/file.aspx?id=15952

The maths in appendix two is fascinating!

[Nuts]

I dont see how there is an alternative to 'not planning on cooking at all over summer'... you might have a good idea of the weather for a day or two but who knows after that?

sometimes folks just need to be told. Ironic, i guess no public Servant hat there?

If the regulation fails then maybe they will move to more serious legislation and maybe bans. If we are all good at being careful then maybe that wont happen.
But a lot of people seem to think 'we have all been good and careful', regulation still 'happens'

To me, the introduction of 'fuel stove only' areas was an example of 'good regulation' for many reasons (fire service concerns for safety included) It relied on an ongoing education campaign and appears overall to have been a rare success. Stoves are a good alternative for many practical reasons. Reducing the possibility of an uncontrolled fire(?) was a good outcome.

[corvus]

Who is going to police this ??

[Michael_Kingston]

As I said earlier - I am not sure why anyone is worried. One, who has seen the fire service checking wilderness areas for compliance? And two, on multiday walks there is no way of knowing a ban is in place.

[geoskid]

Something is not right about this legislation/regulation/policy but I cant verbalise quite why I feel so outraged. It's not as if we have a lot of total fire ban days in a year - I don't like being put in the position of having to choose between being lawful
and doing what is totally safe (for me and my stove - Kovea Titanium). There has to be a better solution than a blanket ban.

[tastrax]

Geoskid,

I suspect we all break the law occasionally (failure to stop at stops signs for the required period, indicators at roundabouts are some classic failures). I think many of us may have inadvertently broken the Total Fire ban rules in the past as well. I think what this highlights is that maybe we all just need to be extra cautious on hot days when using our stoves regardless of the implementation of a total fire ban. Maybe that means you cook on the beach rather than in a vegetation (or peat) covered campsite, maybe you select the campsite that has the large rocky outcrop that provides a relatively safe cooking spot or maybe you just don't cook that night. At least that way if something does go wrong you have a clear conscious that you made the best effort possible in the circumstances.

As you stated there are very few total fire ban days anyway - maybe we should just take the above actions anyway?

Cheers and a Merry Christmas to all

[BarryJ]

These regs are not new. To the best of my knowledge they have been in force for 4-5 years at least (I became aware of them about 3-4 years ago) and I haven't suffered any major inconvenience, even when (car) camping for 10 days straight early Jan each year; I use a mobile phone with internet capability to monitor the Tas Fire Service site so that I know when there is a total fire ban in force.

[soulfree]

This is definitely not new in Victoria, the state where many huts have been burnt down by walkers in the past, including :

Wonnangatta Station - the original homestead burnt down unintentionally by University bushwalkers in the '70s
Mt Bogong (Maddisions "Aertex", Summit & Bivouac Huts - intentionally burnt down in the 70's (1978?) culprit never found!
Fitzgeralds Hut burnt down by school student bushwalkers

Its is wrong simplistic and a little self righteous to take the bushwalkers = good guys / 4wders = bad guys stance as has been taken in this thread by at least one person. There are both good and bad walkers & 4wders, I would have thought this was common sense.

In a climate where we are faced with ever increasing temps and tinder dry bush I would have thought walkers of all people would be pro active on this one. Having run bushwalks for over 20 years we have for many many years now taken alternative 'Total Fire Ban' food in summer months and regularly plan meals which can be eaten without the need for cooking. Wraps work well for this:) With current technology there's really no no excuse for "not knowing".

As a keen bushwalker the last thing I would want to do is start a fire and destroy the very thing I claim to love.

As has been pointed out already, don't under estimate the potential of any stove to get out of your control. Even meths based stoves such as Trangias can flame up easily enough if overloaded or excessively hot and if that ground they're resting on has not been cleared properly, a fire will result.

Personally I don't just not cook on TFB days but also when I judge the conditions to be too dry to safely cook.

[Michael_Kingston]

[quote="soulfree"]........... With current technology there's really no no excuse for "not knowing".

Tastrax, while I agreee that it is simplistic to label all 4wders as mindless idiots, I am not sure what you mean by the above point. Are you suggesting we all carry satellite phones to get weather updates if we are on extended walks?

[soulfree]

BTW I'm Soulfree not Tastrax, but yes you have raised an interesting point which I fear may not sit well with some walkers but there you go ...

These days we have many options for assessing the current fire conditions and whether a TFB has been declared for your area. These include:

- the radio: it's very easy to carry a lightweight portable radio for checking current conditions. In Vic ABC has very strong signal strength. This is perhaps the easiest
option.

- mobile phone / PDA: in Vicphone coverage is very good in most areas (provided you're with Tesltra). You can use your phone/PDA to
- ring to find out (I use the BOM to check if any weather warnings are present, just call 1300 659 210. This number is permanently stored in my phone.)
- text a friend
- receive text (you could pre arrange for friends or family to text you when significant weather events such as TFB or Severe Weather Warnings are present for your
area)
- ditto for email
- surf the net / BOM

- satellite phone - of course you may carry this too. If you are running a commercial trip it is mandatory that you have some reliable means of assessing current
conditions.
This does not apply for recreational users which begs the question why should recreational users be allowed to be less informed than commercial groups ... certainly if
you get caught using your stove on a TFB day ignorance will be no excuse. Again common sense should prevail in that you should be able to assess that the fire danger
for an area is extreme without having to be told E.g. if it's 40 degrees and a blistering northerly in Victoria you would be ill advised to light any sort of naked flame let
alone light your meths or shellite stove.

- UHF / VHF radio is another means of comms you may choose to use. If using know the locations of repeaters in your area.

- you could always, as a last resort, ask someone. On more popular walks the chances are of all the walkers you bump into someone will be able to find out if not already
know the answer.

Be aware the I am writing from the perspective of a Victorian walker. Victoria has some of the worst bushfire conditions in the world. I make no claims of expertise about Tasmanian conditions but would have thought this is pretty much common sense.

[Michael_Kingston]

Sorry Soulfree about the name mix up.

Where I go walking mobile phones are NOT an option for weather forecasts. They simply don't work for 99+% of the trip. If you are really lucky you might get reception once during a walk, and even then it is very patchy and can be lost by accidently moving your phone slightly. Similarly, radio reception is usually non existent and carrying a vhf/uhf radio is not practical. A satellite phone would be great but I cannot afford that. As for seeing other people, on my last major walk we saw no one in seven days, apart from in the first 2 hours.

I will stick to cooking on a hard surface (rocks) next to a water source if the weather is extreme.

[soulfree]

Micheal, thanks for your reply to what I feel is an important and perhaps sensitive topic. It seems the message is slow to get through and I make no apologies to my stance on this.

I am intersted in your response. I understand you are in a remote area and out of range of modern communications devices, however if conditions are, as you say, extreme (and given this thread's title by "extreme" I read extreme fire danger) then why do you feel the need to light your stove? Obviously cold is not the issue here, no-one's going to die of hypothermia surely. Do you just want a hot cuppa? Can you not cater for a cold meal?

Now as a mountain-bred Victorian bushwalker I like fires as much as the next person and if conditions are sufficiently "extreme" to warrant it (and here by extreme I mean a combination of wetness, cold and wind chill when freezing to death i.e. hypothermia is the issue) I will not hesitate to light a fire but hang on a minute, we're talking about extremely hot weather here so why must you light your stove and put the bush at risk? If despite your lack of comms and knowldege of a TFB being in place for your location in Tasmania the weather is "extreme", then surely as an experienced walker you can (a) make the judgement yourself that the weather conditions present an extreme fire risk and (b) make the sensible decision not to light your stove and put the bush at risk?

Please do not take offence as I have picked up on this tendency both in this thread and another on this forum but I find it apparent that there is a bit of a "Oh but it's always someone else who causes fires" thing at play here. Am I wrong? Do bushwalkers never cause fires?Is it OK to light your stove if you think you can get away with it? I thought in my previous post I listed several examples of huts being burnt down by careless bushwalkers. It does happen. Bushfires have started this way.

We all love the bush, so why risk burning it when conditions are as you say, extreme?

All I am saying is if the fire risk is obviously extreme to you, surely it's worth an evening's colddinnerl not to risk further damage? It's not that hard to predict when these risks are and to cater for them.

Actions speak louder than words, espoecially our actions when no one else can see them.

[Nuts]

Portable gas or electric BBQs must be within 20 meters of a permanent dwelling

I thought in my previous post I listed several examples of huts being burnt down by careless bushwalkers.

_______________________


What seems obvious, regardless of opinion, is just how poor the education on this has been. Everyone seems to know about 'fuel stove only' areas but not many seem to know about additional regulations with a total fire ban...

I find it hard to see that the odds of a bushwalker, coveting the fuel they carry on their back, starting a wildfire would be other than extremely minimal...

If serious, requiring an IQ test with stove purchase may be more effective?

[Michael_Kingston]

I can see where you are coming from Soulfree and I take no offence at all from your comments.

I still can't see how I will personally start a fire if I use my stove on a rock or cleared area right next to a lake or creek (I am talking a matter of centimetres not metres). At the same time, we do have laws to protect us from idiocy and incompetence and perhaps I should respect them.

[soulfree]

Thank you Michael, that was a nice response

[Michael_Kingston]

No worries Soulfree! Speaking of extreme weather it has just reached 38 degrees in Hobart with 30-40 km/h winds. I would not be enjoying it if I was walking today!!