Commercial Advertising

[Son of a Beach]

As you have probably noticed, the first commercial advertisements hosted on Bushwalk Tasmania & Bushwalk Australia started being served at about 12:40pm today.

This possibility had been discussed previously and as said then, I have not gone out of my way to court advertisers and certainly didn't even consider of the possibility of gaining an income from this site when it was first established. Over the last year or so, it has become apparent that the potential advertising space here is of value to other organisations, so I began making preparations for advertising requests several months ago when another company initially started making queries.

So please welcome our first official forums sponsor, Kellys Basecamp. They're an online retailer of bushwalking gear, and they appear to have good gear at good prices, and I think they're well worth checking out (no, I do not get paid more if you click on their ads, under the current arrangement ). If you wish to discuss Kellys Basecamp or their site, please feel free to open a new topic in the "Equipment" or "Specials, Discounts, Adverts" forums. You're welcome to discuss advertising on this site in general in this topic (or a new topic in the "Forum" forum).

Please note that as a recipient of income from advertising, I will now have to be careful about any bias or prejudice in my posts that could appear to be related to sponsors' goods or services. I intend to keep my posts impartial (at least as much as they have been in the past ), and I will aim to declare any interests or associations where ever relevant. Please feel free to call me out on that if you think I've missed it anywhere.

[geoskid]

Wow, it's in your face - everywhere
Nik, I certainly don't have a problem you getting an income from the site, none of my business.
Must admit my initial reaction was'nt favourable, I guess I dont like being advertised at, but thats my problem.
Also slight feeling of being 'Sold'. I'll get over it - I'm too addicted to the site not too.
I was probably 'hanging out' here too much anyway.

[climberman]

Well done Nik - you have developed a site that others recognise has enough quality to be worth some exchange of funds. Excellent.

[Son of a Beach]

I appreciate the feedback, and invite others to comment also. I really do like the ad-free nature this site has had for the last 2.5 years, and commencing advertisements involves mixed feelings for me - it really does cut both ways - but if the ads can cover the cost of running the site that would be great, and if they generate more than that, then that's a bonus. Note that there are some types of advertising that I will NOT allow on this site (including popups, audio, etc).

Getting the balance right with advertising is very difficult. So, if I can tone it down a little without removing the value for the advertisers, I'll see what I can do. Maybe I'll remove the borders (edit: done).

Note that there is also an advertisement spot on the index page (just above the 'Welcome' message), and another at the bottom of each topic page, neither of which have been booked out yet. So don't be surprised if you start seeing stuff there also.

[corvus]

Nik I have no problems with the Advertising and I congratulate you for getting a small return for your efforts in setting up this Forum, an additional source of Quiz prizes perhaps
c

[Son of a Beach]

Nik I have no problems with the Advertising and I congratulate you for getting a small return for your efforts in setting up this Forum, an additional source of Quiz prizes perhaps
c

Absolutely. They actually suggested this to me without my mentioning it. So I'm not going to chase it down, but I expect it will come up eventually.

[walkinTas]

As you have probably noticed, the first commercial advertisements hosted on Bushwalk Tasmania & Bushwalk Australia started being served at about 12:40pm today.

Oops, there goes the neighbourhood. Might cause a few people to reevaluate what the contribute for free.

[BarryJ]

Personally, I see no reason why advertising will make a difference to how this forum operates. I frequently use a fly fishing forum which is run by commercial interests AND has advertising but everyone still freely (and happily) contributes information.

[Kainas]

Good for you. You are worthy of your wages.

You put alot of time and responsibility into actively managing this forum, from valuable contributions to keeping topics clean and always 'on-topic'. The service you provide to the bush-walking community should be compensated.

[corvus]

Just purchased a bargain from Kelly's Base Camp, Esbit fuel which we use to fire our model Steam Engine collection thanks Nik
c

[dee_legg]

I'm very much happy to see advertising on this site, as long as it stays relevant to what this site is about! Which i'm sure it will. I'd never heard of Kellys Basecamp before but now i have a new resource for buying gear and that brings no complaints.

[Nuts]

As mentioned to Nik, I think that he deserves something back. Just for the record though, that add kinda makes it look like youve landed on the Kelly's basecamp forum. It doesnt need to be half that size or as bold to not be missed. Perhaps the wording needs to be smaller than the bwt forum title or something? If I was 'Kelly's' I would rethink what is needed, there is a fine line between positive and negative publicity (especially within the fickle bushwalking crowd) I'd also suggest that w-tas does have a point. The forum Is its contributers and the benefit to advertisers comes from those contributions. Some sort of recognition for that (ie. specific discount or something) would go a long way to acknowledging this....

[Steve]

I was gonna say, what advertisement..? Until I realised good 'ol Firefox add-on Adblock Plus had blocked the ad for me.

[Son of a Beach]

I was gonna say, what advertisement..? Until I realised good 'ol Firefox add-on Adblock Plus had blocked the ad for me.

Yes, it's worth reminding people that most browsers these days are very good at blocking adverts. You just have to turn the feature on.

All the other feedback is also good. The size and boldness of the adverts will be re-assessed, but it may not be feasible to change these easily. In the realm of WWW advertising there have been several image sizes that have become standards for online advertising. It's useful to use these standards, as this means that an advertiser can use the same advert image on multiple advertising sites. The advert management software I'm using includes several standard sizes pre-defined, and this was the only wide/flat size from their list of standard sizes that worked well here. I can create custom sizes, but would prefer to stick with the standards. And as far as boldness/colours, it's difficult to clearly define what would be permissible and would would not, without making the whole submission process very complicated.

However, I will consider all of these things over time. We're just starting out, and I'm sure things will change. I've already removed that large bold border that we started out with for the first day or two. I think it looks much more subdued without it, and it didn't really fit the style of the topic pages.

Keep the feedback coming in, it's always good to know what the members are thinking, and where appropriate, I will use this feedback to make improvements.

[frank_in_oz]

No dramas from me Nik. I have a rough idea of how much time you spend admining (is that a word?) the site and the small return you can pick up from advertising would not cover your "real" time / wages.

The moderation here is excellent and I am sure you thought long and hard before "opening the door" to ads.

As media changes, we all have to accept that companies want to be able to advertise their products in places like this, that are perfect for targeted advertising to customers in their "niche". By controlling the amount of ads, their size etc you are keeping the content as "king" and still making some revenue to off set costs. In addition, you could have gambling, money making schemes ads etc plastered all over the site (like many others). By being selective it beciomes a win /win, we get relevant ads and there is a revenue stream to keep the site running.

Imagine Wild magazine without any advertisements. It would not last 3 minutes and be about 5 pages....

[tas-man]

<SNIP>The size and boldness of the adverts will be re-assessed, but it may not be feasible to change these easily. In the realm of WWW advertising there have been several image sizes that have become standards for online advertising. It's useful to use these standards, as this means that an advertiser can use the same advert image on multiple advertising sites. The advert management software I'm using includes several standard sizes pre-defined, and this was the only wide/flat size from their list of standard sizes that worked well here. I can create custom sizes, but would prefer to stick with the standards. And as far as boldness/colours, it's difficult to clearly define what would be permissible and would would not, without making the whole submission process very complicated.

However, I will consider all of these things over time. We're just starting out, and I'm sure things will change. I've already removed that large bold border that we started out with for the first day or two. I think it looks much more subdued without it, and it didn't really fit the style of the topic pages.

Keep the feedback coming in, it's always good to know what the members are thinking, and where appropriate, I will use this feedback to make improvements.

Nik, I have no issues with targeted advertising making an appearance on this forum, but for this first one, I am finding that the large RED "blob" on the page is a constant distraction due to the strong contrast against the "clean green" style of the forum design, and for me does not make me want to click on the link due to this annoyance. I have tried a variety of size reductions and to me the balance between "annoyance" and "livability/visibility" is a reduction of 70%. This perceived "visual impact/annoyance value" of course will vary with the design and degree of colour contrast employed to get attention. My personal feeling is that these adverts would be more effective to regular forum users by not trying to stand out so much, but showing the name of the business with more information about them, such as including a short statement with key words that describe their offerings, so there is more engagement with the reader which can then lead to a positive decision to follow the link if there is something of interest.

Revised Advert.jpg

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[Son of a Beach]

I've been looking at the included standard sizes in the software again and there is a smaller size that could be used. It's about two thirds the size of the current one. I'll have to consider it for a while but I can't change it for some time anyhow as I'll have to wait until the current agreement expires which is three months.

EDIT
I've reduced the size of the (currently unused) advert zone at the bottom of the topic pages. I'll do the same to the one at the top when the opportunity arises.

It's difficult to decide on what is the best balance of value to advertisers and too much for the members. I thought it looked OK on the test site, but then my test 'adverts' were all great photos from the monthly competitions.

[north-north-west]

Well, it was a shock when I first opened the forum, but I've already learned to look past it.
Hope you get a freebie or two from them.

[ollster]

God I love Firefox plugins...

[Steve]

God I love Firefox plugins...

[north-north-west]

Didn't know about the add blocker - but then they have so many add-ons it's impossible to keep up with them all.

[photohiker]

The basecamp advert is a good one. I clicked through to see what they were up to.

If the ads start that animation rubbish, they'll get blocked...

Good luck to you Nik, hope it pays the costs and more!

[Speculator]

You certainly can't miss the ads. I frankly don't like what it does to the layout of the site.

I'd rather have seen something more subtle like Google Ads (text based), but these are things you can work out as you go, you deserve some income for your efforts, and personal costs Nik.

L8r.

[ollster]

I'd be happy to be on a "sponsor's special" mailing list or something... I'd most likely even read them. But I will never accept intrusive ads.

[Son of a Beach]

I do appreciate all the feedback. I don't feel any need to justify myself, but I thought that in the interests of being open about the whole thing, I'd share a few more thoughts that I've had over the past year or so (since I first started getting enquiries about advertising on this site), in order to explain a bit further the reasons why the adverts are in their current form.

One of the earlier requests from an advertiser to place ads on this site (not Kellys Basecamp) requested to include flashing, full-page-width ads right at the very top of the index page above the site logo/title (amongst other things). Needless to say, I declined, before even discussing how much they wanted to pay for it. After telling them what I could allow up, I've not heard back from them. So lets be grateful we don't have that.

Restricting to text-only adverts reduces the value for many advertisers, and some (such as the one mentioned above) would not think it worthwhile at all.

Google AdSense/AdWords is an interesting proposition. But the value is not so good - or at least it is very difficult to determine. Google won't actually tell you how much you get per view/click, and how much they keep for themselves. I don't intend to play that game where I have no control over the advertising, the content or the prices.

Additionally, using Google ads would mean that I would have had to deliberately make the choice to start placing adverts on the site, whether advertisers had requested to advertise here or not. This is something I did not want to do - I was not going to place ads on this site without being asked to do so by advertisers.

Google gives you very little control over adverts too. It does a fairly good job of trying to intelligently figure out which adverts are applicable to the content, but it's never going to be as sensible as advertisers who choose their market directly. Eg, with the current scheme it would be easy for a local Tasmanian company to place ads that ONLY appeared in the "Tasmania" forum. This would be very affordable for them, and they would't be wasting money paying for ads that could appear not only on other forums, but on other sites altogether.

To make a reasonable amount of money from Google advertising, you need a LOT of those little text ads all over the site. I'm sure you've seen sites like that around.

Having advertisers who have chosen for themselves to advertise specifically at this site, means that they truly see the value that is here, and they can communicate directly with their target market. I hope that this also means they place adverts that are more likely to be of benefit to the people here. Highly targeted advertising is (I hope) better for both the advertisers and for the viewers, in that sense.

I do not wish for this site to be overrun with ads as is often seen on other sites, and I plan to restrict it to just two adverts on any one page (for logged in members). No offensive popups, no audio.

I have done a fair bit of research before commencing advertising here, but of course the comments and feedback you are all providing is of even more value, as there's no amount of research that can get the true feelings of the visitors and members of this site apart from actually doing it.

Some of you may also be interested to know that the advertising information that I send out to people who ask to advertise here specifically states that a smaller number of less intrusive adverts is better for everybody, and that a high quality site means better value for their ads. Advertisers do not get any special treatment on this site apart from the ads or promotions themselves. Ie, they have to abide by the same rules, and have no veto or censorship rights regarding content. I know of some sites where advertisers can veto any negative comments about themselves, and even stop some discussions about their competitors.

Note that the quality of this site for the members and readers is the first priority for me, and always will be (I actually 'use' this site myself too, not just administrate it). However, there are also other lesser priorities which still have to be considered. Such as, if people want to give me money, I'm not going to keep saying "no" or "that's too much! offer me less". Deciding on what is good value for their money, and what is too detrimental to the quality of the site is a difficult task, but I'm hoping to achieve a reasonable balance.

EDIT: Sheesh, I can really blab on, when I get going. Must be the delirium kicking in - I'm at home, off sick with a nasty flu at the moment.

[Phil]

Good on you Nik. I think there is value for all parties with the type of advertising that we're seeing and that you intend to run with in the future. There's obviously a cost to run the site and I for one get a great deal of enjoyment and 'value' out of BT; so if the only price I have to pay is to see some adverts, then I'm happy to pay!

[Speculator]

I do appreciate all the feedback. *snip*

Wow, I really don't have time to read all this on my break, but it's okay, I really don't care enough for the one ad on the site to bother me. That said, if less intrusive advertising methods, or better looking banners become available please consider them? I'm happy to do any image editing if needed.

L8rz.

[tas-man]

Hi Nik, the smaller advertisement looks much better in my opinion. It still stands out and gets your attention, but after many, many, many viewings is not so distracting now. I have checked out their website once, and now I am aware of their business, so would most likely check out their items and pricing when looking for new gear. Have you tried a fluro moss green colour instead of the red to match the site "decor"? Try that for the next one

Picture 2.jpg

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[frank_in_oz]

To make a reasonable amount of money from Google advertising, you need a LOT of those little text ads all over the site. I'm sure you've seen sites like that around.

Google ads are an interesting beast. We have had them on our blog for a couple of years so have a bit of experience with them.
Dot points below for anyone who is interested:
- there is a limit of 3 text blocks per page - after that they disappear - you can chose the size, style etc
- you need a HUGE volume of traffic to make any real cash - not sure what the stats are at BWT but I get about 150 unique visitors a day and about 300 + page views (this is a VERY small number in the internet world)
- returns to me per click vary from $A 0.30 to $A1.80
- some days I make ZERO, some days (RARELY) $A3.00
- I can never see myself making any "real" money from them and are considering removing them to "clean up the site"

The best path to making a small return on very specialised sites (like bushwalking) is for paid advertising spots (like Nik has here). Sites such as this have visitors that have a specific interest in the topic and are a marketers dream. This is their passion / hobby/ recreation outlet and most of the hard work has been done just getting the "punter" (us) here because of quality in content (and hence high Google rankings) A prime location for "targeted" advertising.

There is a bloke I really admire who is based in Melbourne. His name is Darren Rowse and he makes SERIOUS money from "blogging" / the internet (we are taling $300k plus per annum)

He focuses on QUALITY CONTENT (which you get here)

This post of his if the first in a series about using Google adsense:
http://www.problogger.net/archives/2004 ... loggers-1/

This post is on how "bloggers" make $$ from their passion:
http://www.problogger.net/archives/2005 ... rom-blogs/

This post outlines how he makes money from the net.
http://www.problogger.net/archives/2007 ... -blogging/

Not sure if I have headed WAY too far off topic but the topic covers $$ and the net so I jumped in.

[Son of a Beach]

frank_in_oz: Thanks for all that information. It's difficult to find anything concrete about Google ads from users, so this information is helpful. It largely confirms my suspicions.

I have a conspiracy theory, however, that sites with Google Ads get ranked higher in Google than other sites.