Gaa! Tourists everywhere (Cradle Mt.)!!!!

[Speculator]

I've always felt it's a bit wrong that I've never walked to the Cradle summit before, so yesterday I set out for the mountain so that I could tick this long-overdue walk of my list. It was shaping up to be a ripper of a day, so I set out for Cradle by myself, figuring there'd be some nice tourists on the mountain who I could have a chat to along the way. I'd heard it gets pretty crowded up there during the peak season (now, basically), but I had nooooo idea. I couldn't even drive into the park. I had to either get a shuttle-bus or wait what they estimated might be 40mins for another car to leave. Apparently they'd seen 1800 people go in that day, and the day wasn't even half over. I opted for the bus, but still had to stand in line for 30 mins.
Once I made it in, I made good time up the steeper Marions Lookout track and then on to the mountain, figuring, again wrongly, that most tourists would be doing Dove Lake, Crater Lake or Marions Lookout and that I shouldn't be seeing the swarms that were all over the lookout. Er... no... it was like a little waterfall of people coming down the mountain as I went up. Couples, families with kids (one with a kid on his back), people of all ages and from all over the place. It did make the going a little slow I have to say. Once at the top, the view was a cracker, I can't believe I haven't done it before. If there's anyone else out there who for some strange reason has never done it before I can highly recommend it, just maybe not during the peak tourist season. I'm all for tourism in Tassie, but I think us locals should automatically be given preference!

Hi, How do you know that all the other people[Tourists] were not locals?

[Speculator]

Hi, How do you know that all the other people[Tourists] were not locals?

I don't know that *all* of them were tourists. I spoke to quite a few people though, and none were locals. Closest were some lads doing the overland track I spoke to at the kitchen hut. They were from Melbourne. There was a busload of Americans/Canadians, I spoke to people with a variety of European accents, who admittedly may have been locals who've moved here to live... however given the number of tour buses in the carpark, the conversations I heard on the shuttle, and in line, and the number of rental cars I can confidently say they were mostly tourists (it is peak season after all).

L8r.

[corvus]

G'day Specs,
Thats par for the course up there now and the reason the Overland has been regulated ,the up side is that Parks made a bucket load of mony that will be used to upgrade the walking tracks etc

[Speculator]

G'day Specs,
Thats par for the course up there now and the reason the Overland has been regulated ,the up side is that Parks made a bucket load of mony that will be used to upgrade the walking tracks etc

Yeah, it's one of those things that you hear about, but rarely ever witness. It was quite mad up there! I must say though that despite the madness, the parks lot do a great job to run things as smoothly as possible!

L8r.

[Son of a Beach]

It appears to be the standard eco-tourism practice to choose a particularly picturesque location to become the "sacraficial" tourism hot spot. The idea being to draw all the tourists there, and hope they get their fill of environmental experiences, and don't bother to visit too many other environmentally sensitive places.

Then they can focus the majority of the money in catering for these large number of tourists in one smallish area.

Personally, I think it is environmental exploitation to deliberately encourage all the extra tourists to Tasmania in the first place, just so that our state can get our hands in their pockets. However, I understand that it is an important part of our economy... blah blah blah. I'd be no good in government... I'd send Tasmania broke.

[corvus]

I remember one new year At Pelion when there were over 100 campers and only the one old long drop toilet ,we actually went back to Old Pelion Hut and only had to share with another 10 campers,I may add that we made some good friends on our many Overland trips some of whom we remained in touch with on line for a number of years.
I am heading into Pelion on the 22nd (with TWF I hope) and depending on other local overnighters I expect a maximum of 45 there ,now that the Overland is North to South only during peak season.

[corvus]

Hey SOB ,
Our economy relies on Tourisim and they dont all head to Cradle ,for instance the West coast is attracting major numbers who take in Gordon River Cruises and The Abt Widerness Railway even the Mine tours at Queenstown are fully booked during peak season so lets just enjoy their financial input.
There are many places we can go where we dont encounter Tourists in any numbers and in the off season even Cradle is peaceful

[Speculator]

Hey SOB ,
Our economy relies on Tourisim and they dont all head to Cradle ,for instance the West coast is attracting major numbers who take in Gordon River Cruises and The Abt Widerness Railway even the Mine tours at Queenstown are fully booked during peak season so lets just enjoy their financial input.
There are many places we can go where we dont encounter Tourists in any numbers and in the off season even Cradle is peaceful

Yup, and I'd rather the income from tourists looking at the trees than nearsighted self-interested types cutting them down!

L8r.

[Son of a Beach]

yeah, don't stress too much. I'm not really serious about this. I'd like to avoid having the ridiculous numbers of tourists in some places, but I realise that there are other consequences, so it's never as simple as that. I'm never going to get into politics, anyhow.

[corvus]

Nik Glad to hear you have no political asperations(nor do I) and I agree it can be bloomin awfull with large numbers in some areas.
But I do like to play the devils advocate in the hope that our threads can be expanded upon

[tasadam]

G'day Specs,
Thats par for the course up there now and the reason the Overland has been regulated ,the up side is that Parks made a bucket load of mony that will be used to upgrade the walking tracks etc

OK I was saving my 200th post for a significant gallery post, but couldn't help myself on this one.

When was the last time you were asked to provide or show your parks pass?
I have never been asked about my parks pass, though I have seen plenty of rangers.

Do they have the legal right to fine you?
Last I heard, the only prosecuting they do was issue notices to vehicles in the Cradle Mtn car park and one other popular one, forget whether it was Freycinet or St Clair, but that they cannot enforce the fine (I hope this is wrong, or I hope steps are being taken to resolve that situation).

What is the penalty for not showing your parks pass?
There are signs in the Lake St Clair carpark that say Show your parks pass (or risk a $20 fine).
Isn't it more expensive to buy a day pass?
http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/natparks/current_fees.html
Current day car pass is $22.
So why bother with a pass?
Particularly when you are going to leave the state and not worry about paying IF you do get fined anyway...

It concerns me that many of these visitors would not have bothered with passes anyway...
And of bigger concern is that apart from a few signs, there is no active examination of parks passes.
It seems more like an honesty system.

I for one buy the two year pass and have done for a number of bi-years.
Though I am also in the belief that Tasmanian residents should be allowed to play in their own backyard without having to pay...
The money to pay Parks for what they do comes from Tasmanian taxes. What governments call consolidated revenue. This is supplemented by the raising of revenue by the good folk that pay their parks memberships, as well as the more recent overland charge.
So as we the Tasmanian public are paying our taxes, we are already contributing to Parks through normal funding.
We are still required to pay for parks access. It's a way governments add to their consolidated revenue...

(off topic rant - did you know that less than 10 percent of revenue raised by speed cameras actually went back into Roads? If they spent 100% of speed camera revenue on the roads, how good do you think they would be? And how much less road trauma would there be because of better roads? Instead, they stick their hand out to the Federal government all the time saying "This is a Black Spot, we need to fix it", and expect funding. I know it's a balancing act and the funds they currently have are allocated. Perhaps they should balance things differently, maybe starting at their hip pockets...)

Wouldn't it be a great "get fit" campaign by a Government if they were to give out to every Tasmanian household, a family parks pass each year with the Rates or something... By laws for landlords to hand on for rental properties etc. Then every Tasmanian would have more incentive to use these fantastic parks without feeling like we are being ripped off by governments every way they can. How much better off would state revenue be if they had to spend less on health because Tasmanians are getting out there enjoying the outdoors and getting fit and healthy because they can, without having to PAY to do so...
(Yes there is a beach you can go to or a state reserve that is not a national park, but that's not my point, my point is about getting the funding for Parks that they deserve / need).

Apparently they'd seen 1800 people go in that day, and the day wasn't even half over.

Assuming most people would start off in the morning, say 2500 for the day.
At $11 per head for a per-person day pass, that's $27,500.
OK Now summer is about 90 days long so assuming you had a particularly busy day and the typical amount is 2000 people.
That's 1.98 million for the 3 months of summer just in day visitors to one park.
Have you ever seen how busy Freycinet gets?
But some of these visitors would be in the state for more than a day, so they would visit the parks on different days, needing a holiday pass. 8 weeks. $28 per person.
2000 of them in a day and you've got over $5 million in 3 months.
Car passes would bump it up more, but then you get more people in a car so this will do as a guesstimate.

Somehow, just somehow, I think Parks is missing out on a bit of potential revenue there...

Referring to my point about speed cameras and consolidated revenue, I wonder whether there is any check done to see that all funds raised by parks passes etc is actually put into parks?
Or whether the whole Parks department costs X to run, which normally comes from consolidated revenue as it did before the pass system was introduced, and if the pass system only realises a fraction of X, then a government can say they put all of the parks pass funds into Parks department (but top it up with LESS consolidated revenue)?
Like, if Parks Tas had a budget of $20 million per annum, and typically the fees system produces a return of $15 mil, then a government would come up with the extra 5 mil, but if one year the pass system realised $19 mil, a government would only contribute $1 mil and still say that all the money from passes goes back into parks??

Maybe I'm just suspicious.
Maybe I should join politics and fix some things.
Maybe I'll just rant here for a while and feel better for it.

I have possibly breached on a rule here -

Political content is not permitted, either for or against any particular issue, party, person or organisation.

My point is not directed against the government in particular, my point when referring to A government - any government - is more about funding for Parks and the accountability of those funds.
How accurate my comments are I do not know, perhaps I never will.
I wanted to make my point clear so this conversation does not go off on a "government bashing" tangent.

[Son of a Beach]

Please keep in mind to avoid getting any more political than this in the forums. Some of this thread (including my own post, I guess) is getting close to the line, but I don't think we've crossed it yet (let me know if anyone thinks otherwise).

Maybe we should have a forum specifically for political bushwalking related content?

Anyhow... I've been asked for a national parks pass a couple of times. I've never been able to show it though, because I do not usually take my wallet bushwalking. I just told them that the sticker is on the car, and my wallet is at home. It never went any further than that. Mind you I've not been asked for many years, things may have changed.

I was under the impression that people did get fined on occasions, but I've got no specific details that I can remember, so I'm not sure why I was so confident of this.

[corvus]

Gees Adam I bet that feels better! Parks pass inspection for general entry to Cradle Reserve when doing my Wadens stint at Scout Lodge 6 times a year never but with the new electronic Barrier at the information centre I guess no pass no entry, at Pelion or Waterfall Valley ever since the pass introduction every time if there was a resident Warden.
As to funds spent in the reserve when I first went to Cradle in 1968 the total permanent staff was Gordon Saunders and his wife (dont know if Roxly was full time there then) it has come a long way since (hell Haine's Sawmill was still at Ronny Creek)
does any one else remember.
We pay for roads ,water ,waste removal,and other infrasructure as Tasmanians and whilst I am not happy about it I believe all of us who use the facilities should pay for the privilege of using our magnificent National Parks (I know hundreds of Tasmanians who dont Bushwalk)and dont expect them to pay for me and my hobby.
As to your "get fit free pass "for Tassies in my opinion it would only be of benifit to those of us who allready BW because we have a load of Lardies who didnt use it b4 when it was free.
Just my opinion

[corvus]

Hey nik what do you do about your driving licence if you leave your wallet at home?

[walkinTas]

OK I was saving my 200th post for a significant gallery post, but couldn't help myself on this one.

I was wondering where you've been.

I don't think it is too political to suggest that Parks could man the gate over summer and collect some more revenue. Maybe not as much as you calculate - weekends are always busier, but still good and useful money.

I also believe that Tasmanians should be allowed to play in their own backyard - so I hope Park fees remain reasonable. But now you know why the fee on the overland track is so much. It is meant to discourage all but the serious walkers.

Last edited by walkinTas on Sun 27 Apr, 2008 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Son of a Beach]

Hey nik what do you do about your driving licence if you leave your wallet at home?

Back in those days, the law did not actually require you to carry your license while driving. Strange but true. That law only came into Tasmania a few years ago. Before the law came in, I got pulled over for general safety checks once or twice while I didn't have my license with me and the police just had to take down my name and registration number, and check it across the radio (or back at the office later).

I do take my wallet bushwalking with me these days if I'm also the driver, but I still don't always have my parks pass in my wallet. Sometimes my wife has it in her purse, and I forget to get it from her before I leave.

[Son of a Beach]

I also believe that Tasmanians should be allowed to play in their own backyard - so I hope Park fees remain reasonable. But now you know why the fee on the overland track is so much. It is meant to discourage all but the serious walkers.

I reckon that charging more to discourage users merely creates an elitism of those who can afford to do the track and those who can't. The quota is what should limit the numbers, not the cost of the passes. I think it's inexcusable the way the costs of doing the overland track have skyrocketed over the last 3 years (that includes parks passes, overland track pass, and - for most people - the boat across Lake St Clair).

I also agree that Tasmanians should be allowed to play in their own backyard, we already pay for maintenance (through other taxes), and since there are far more tourists than Tasmanians who visit the parks, it probably wouldn't make much difference to the overall revenue they get from the parks passes. I think that idea of allocating Tasmanians with family parks passes (eg, for proved residents?) makes sense.

[corvus]

Did you know that there is a barrier at the exit of the car park at Cradle Mt Info Centre ,you no longer drive pass CMIC but enter the car park on a LHT off the road and if you have a current PP and Dove Lake car park has a space you can proceed ,the alternative is to take the Shuttle Bus as Specs did ( up to 30 min wait but no cost if you have a yearly pass) however it means that the users of Blanfordia or Scout Lodge will be disadvantaged initially as no precedents have been set ,all this with no consultation but I guess we should be happy that we have presence in the reserve which would not be allowed now .

[Son of a Beach]

I do take my wallet bushwalking with me these days if I'm also the driver, but I still don't always have my parks pass in my wallet. Sometimes my wife has it in her purse, and I forget to get it from her before I leave.

What is the rule with carrying a pass while walking anyhow? We always get an annual, or biannual car pass, which is for up to 8 people in the same car. How many people does this cover if you get out of the car and go for a walk.

If I take 5 people into a national park in my car, with a national parks pass on it, and a ranger stops us as we get out of the car, we can point at the sticker on the car, and he'll be happy. But what if we are on a short stroll away from the car looking at the nearby scenery? Does it still cover up to 8 people if we are out of sight of the car?

What about if we are 6 days walk from the car - are we still covered by that one parks pass? How does he know we all came in the same car (or in any car with a pass on it at all)? If one of us has a pass on him that covers his car, does that cover up to 8 people walking with him if they are 6 days away from that car? Does anybody in the group have to actually carry a pass on their person if they came into the park in a car with a pass on it? What if the group splits up into doing two separate walks, and so one group no longer has any passes amongst their members, although they all came in a car with a pass on it?

What if they did bring their car with the pass on it, but left it parked outside of the park, and everybody walked into the park on their own two feet? Does this pass still cover up to 8 people?

What about if we came in a car that doesn't have a pass at all (and left it parked outside the boundary of the national park so as to be legal), but one of us does have a parks pass for a car which they left at home that could have brought up to 8 people into the park, and therefore has paid for their pass for up to 8 people, but hasn't brought their car with them on this particular occasion? Does that cover the 8 people with them?

Am I getting a bit ridiculous now?

But seriously, these last two situations are quite common for a lot of bushwalks in Tasmania. I think that in all these cases the people should be covered by their national parks pass, but I'm unclear on the park rangers' view of this.

[corvus]

How exactly would the Tasmanian Family Pass be allocated and Policed my next door neighbours who dont B/walk could sell it to whomever and the whole system would become a costly burocreatic excercise.
What about an option on our parks pass just like Wild Care and then only those of us who want to do the Overland in peak season could purchase Tasmanian Residents Pass(at a reduced cost ) but then what about monitoring the numbers ?still I am sure that it could be done but again with burocreatic cost.
Remember there is no free lunch.

[corvus]

I have the answer to the pass situation which I ask someone to test DONT PURCHASE ONE and let us know the consequenses ,parks staff once you are in there have no real means of evicting you.
It is only because we are law abiding citizens that we go along with this otherwise we will decend into anarchy
just like we obey the speed limit and drive on the correct side of the road dont beat our partners or children and vote

[walkinTas]

Nik, I think the questions of "who is covered and who is not", and "what activities are covered by your annual Parks pass", are questions you should take up with the Parks authorities. This forum could play a role in helping to clarify this issue.

You don't have to be a bushwalker to enjoy our NPs either. Everytime I walk down Baker's Beach I wonder how such a marvellous beach so close to two cities can go relative unused for most of the year.

As I said above, I think Tasmanians should be able to play in their own backyard. That said, Overland track aside, I don't think that $66.00 for an annual car pass and park pass is excessive. This worked out at less than $2.00 a head on my pass last year. I really hope the fees stay reasonable for Tasmanians, so that all Tasmanians can continue to enjoy their State.

Lastly, I would not like to leave visitors to this forum with the impression that Tourists are not welcome in Tasmania. Tasmania is a gorgeous place - the very best. Simply the best State in the best Country in the world. Tasmanians (people born in this State) are very privileged. I'd like to think that we don't mind sharing this privilege with the rest of the world. The trick is to work out how to both share and enjoy the natural beauty without having it destroyed in the process.

This forum does a wonderful job of telling people about the real beauty of Tasmania. You can't have a public website that tells 6.5 billion people about the wonders of Tasmania, and not expect a small percentage will want to come and look for themselves. IMHO this forum has an important role to also continue to encourage these people to do all of the right things when they do visit.

If you are a visitor, or a potential visitor, Tasmanians have a reputation of being some of the friendliest people in the world.

[corvus]

Well said walkin Tas

[Speculator]

Oh good lord, what have I started!

Is there any chance this could just quietly degenerate into a poo related thread like the snakebite one?

[Son of a Beach]

corvus and walkinTas - both very well said. I'm basically a happy camper. I just think that there is still room for improvement in the system. I don't have the answers, so I guess I'm just thinking out loud, and encouraging others to do so as well.

[corvus]

As a special request from the Speculator I can introduce the poo theme thanks to increased cash input from tourists to Cradle , Kithchen Hut surrounds no longer have a strong smell of ordure nor does it have toilet paper flowers every 3 feet .
Parks used some of the fees to build a nice toilet just up the track which is available for Locals and tourists alike just BYO TP

[tasadam]

But, to one of your main points, yes the summit of Cradle is most worthwhile...
Particularly if you go with a couple of good friends and lug a bottle of wine and some glasses with you, and strike it with minimal / no people...

[tasadam]

... nor does it have toilet paper flowers every 3 feet ...

Reminds me of Wineglass bay...
When we completed 7 days on a Frenchmans expedition in 2005, we were home 2 days then went tothe east coast.
Having been away from people for so long, the first thing that struck me was the amount of people. The second, was your so called "flowers".
I counted over 20 before reaching the first lookout before stopping count for the frustration.
And after spending a few days camping, when we reached the car park, there was a ranger with a display of stuffed native animals.
Perhaps educating parks visitors of the concept of what LITTER is and how GASTRO is spread, would be a better use of parks resources. But, keep the tourists happy with stuffed animals and keep the dollars coming in...
Sorry, ranting again...

[corvus]

Do you think education would work as most TP flowers up at Kitchen hut were left by Day Trippers .
Perhaps some graphic multilingual signs would help but it all comes down us doing the right thing and some of us are just plain anti social and dont give a toss about others