Experiences with Rain Jacket Warranties

[Son of a Beach]

My wife returned her ~4 year old goretex rain jacket a few weeks ago, as the layers were delaminating, causing a bubbled/rippled look to the outer layer. The jacket has not been used much, and has been well cared for. It took a long time but the gore people finally phoned her yesterday, and will be giving her a brand new jacket at no cost. They apologised that they won't be able to get one the same colour any more, and she'll have to go and choose a different colour.

So I just thought that I'd let people know that the warranty really works.

EDIT: Anyone else had experiences (good or bad) with the Goretex warranty, or with any other rain jacket fabrics?

[Nuts]

where did she return it to sob. the store, manufacturer or gore direct? cheers nuts

[Son of a Beach]

She returned it to the shop where she'd bought it. The shop assistant went through some paper work with her and then sent it off to gore on her behalf.

I went though a similar process with my (~15 year old) goretex jacket several years ago, and the process works very well. In my case, the jacket had been damaged by hundreds of microcopic holes and not washed properly or often enough (according to the gore labs). I guess the holes were caused by scoparia. So they only paid for half a replacement for mine.

[Ent]

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[blacksheep]

you'll be unlikely to have much joy on a 20 year jacket...I've found Gore to support up to about 5-7 years (they still don't breathe very well though ) beyond that the odds fall away...

[Macca81]

what exactly is the gore garuntee? i have an old goretex jacket, cant remember where i got it from or when. its no longer waterproof and everything on it is in german so i have no idea on what the labels say...

[north-north-west]

Hmmmm, my old jacket is starting to do the bubbly thing around some of the shoulder seams - although it isn't leaking (yet). Maybe I should try to remember where I bought it, and dig out the paperwork . . .

[Ent]

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[adventurescape]

Can we distinguish between garment manufacturer and technology/patent ownership on fabric technologies? Obviously delamination is a problem with the fabric or use/abuse it has endured. How far the manufacturer is going to go to honour such claims depends on how they value their own reputation, whether they make the fabric or the garment.

Brand loyalties are personal and usually emotive, but for garment manufacturers, the choice of fabric is paramount to their own reputation. I personally attended the Event launch at Macpac and have subsequently bought a jacket. This purchase was not based upon a sales gimmick, one independent test or previous experience with event fabrics, nor a bad experience with goretex fabrics. The opportunity to quiz both blacksheep and an event lab fella was invaluable in my choice and highly informative. Somewhere along the way, I have noticed that my jacket has a lifetime warranty on materials and workmanship. Good stuff. One would assume that the manufacturers of both garment and fabric stand by their product 100%. One factor in my purchase was the reputation that Macpac have for quality and longevity of their products. If I have a problem, I'll be sure to take them up on their claim to quality and reputation for good gear. I am sure that event would want to look after their rep too, considering they are taking on a goliath sized brand. I'm sure that they (GE corp owns event) have spent a lot of money on r&d for a new competitive product and would like to see a return on this investment.

Time will tell and I am happy to support healthy competition in an expensive marketplace. It is good to have this resource to research and share info. It will bring accountability to manufacturers that don't honour commitments to quality and also solidify good reputation amongst the consuming masses.

Sam

[blacksheep]

Technically the Gore-tex patent is not on the principles of breathing holes smaller than a water droplet but on the material used thus any manufacturer can find a material that can have the same principle and do the job better but frankly too many have made claims that have just not measured up when running up the Nut.

Not quite. Gore HAD a patent on PTFE in apparel. That has since expired. There are several sources for the same technology that Gore used (firstly a layer of PTFE, then later they switched to PTFE with a PU coating when they couldn't stop their PTFE getting contaminated by body fats and oils).
What Gore did during this patent period very very well was build brand. What BHA technologies did during this period was build a better product (kept working on the idea of PTFE without the need for the performance decreasing PU coating.) They developed and oil repelling version of PTFE. that went on to be called eVent. Around the time the Gore patent expired BHA was acquired by GE, who now are behind eVent.
There is not a PU coated waterproof fabric (which is basically all of them, including Gore-tex) that will allow sweat to exit as rapidly (when you run up the Nut etc )as a jacket with that without pores closed with a PU layer. eVent is an improved technolgy, simple as that.
healthy sceptisism is good, but an open mind is good too.

Sam, did you have a Gore-tex before you bought the Macpac eVent? any comments on how they compare so far?

[Son of a Beach]

I'd like to try eVent (although I expect it'll be a very long time before I need another jacket). I'd be interested to hear from people using it how it compares weight wise, and strength wise after scrub bashing and rock scrambling.

[adventurescape]

I have little to compare the jacket too and have only had it 2 weeks. I'm going somewhere high this long weekend in the hope of copping some of Tassie's best(worst?). It's a funny thing wishing the worst weather upon oneself in the name of testing their gear.

I moved from Perth WA, my pursuits and the weather there never really warranted an expensive technical shell. I had a lightweight goretex cycling jacket around 2001, it was nothing flash. No sealed seams, it had pit zips and a rollaway hood. Not sure of the fabric, but I'd guess paclite??. Our (bike)courier company organised the deal for us so my knowledge of the jacket was minimal. I'd end up soaked under it in any substantial downpour, heavy showers to rain. Breathability of the jacket was ok, pit zips help heaps when riding.

Perhaps a good test for the event jacket would be to put a damp cotton t shirt on and go for a brisk walk and see how readily it dries. I have heard plenty of great reviews on the fabric from many sources.

As for how it handles abuse, time will tell and I really hope it does well. I think the Prophet jacket is a 70 denier face fabric all over??

I asked the event fella (I think his name was Tony) about the bonding of the layers and what causes delamination. My recollections of the conversation are that high temperatures are bad, ie; if something will cause a burn to your skin, it's not good for your jacket either (don't get too close to the campfire or stove). An epoxy based adhesive is used to bond layers and some thinners can damage/dissolve the bond. He hadn't seen any delamination in normal lab testing of the fabric. I imagine its hard to simulate a jacket's lifetime of use and abuse though. I swear my sweat has toxic/caustic properties. I turn lycra to mesh fairly quickly. Frequent washing of all shells is advised. Campfire smoke contains resins that clog the pores that make your jacket breathable, so washing helps here too.

Does anyone know the inside of how the competing fabric manufacturers assemble/bond their fabrics and if there have been significant advances in the epoxies used in the process over the last 20 years?

I would imagine that there have been improvements and that its an ongoing r&d process as delamination issues arise in products. I'm sure that the manufacturers are keen to know an honest history of their products when issues such as delamination occur, not necessarily due to honouring warranty, but to what causes the problem to occur. These products need to stand up to "real world" use and abuse and in some fairly extreme conditions in cases.

20 years of service from a shell is impressive. My expectations for new jacket are high

[blacksheep]

..I'd be interested to hear from people using it how it compares weight wise, and strength wise after scrub bashing and rock scrambling.

these characteristics are not related to the film, but to what type of face cloth is selected (eVent/Goretex etc can be be laminated to 15d substrates or 1000d substrates- that's what will be affect weight and strength)..

[Son of a Beach]

too true... I tend to forget that it's not the entire fabric, but just one of the layers.

[Ent]

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[blacksheep]

no worries Brett. but here is only one brand that Goretex forbid any of their customers to use...i wonder why?

[Nuts]

sorry, i didn't get that^?
so, macpac no longer sell goretex?
how long have you known about the advantages of event?

[Ent]

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[blacksheep]

but here is only one brand that Goretex forbid any of their customers to use...i wonder why?

I assume with Nuts that this macPac. Curious decision by any base material supplier to cut a brand out of the market. Does it have anything to do with the testing that Gore-tex requires to have a garment certified? Curious indeed the world of business given that Gore-tex is featured by a wide variety of brands including Kathmandu, etc

Cheers Brett

sorry, my meaning was lost there...
Gore-tex have told their customers that if they use eVent they will no longer be permitted to buy Goretex fabric. They have told all factories that make Goretex garments that they are if they make eVent garments for anyome then they will no longer be permitted to manufacture Goretex. They are very very protectinist about that.

how long have I known about it? 7 years I think. I always wanted to use it, but it wasn't my say in my previous roles (where I was product manager/designer but not owner). It is very hard for a business to take a risk that sees them go a different direction from popular thinking/against a product that is strongest in the market. Finally here I had the opportunity to offer this product- the trick now is to get people to accept that fabric technolgy moves forward, things improve (we don't wear oilskins much now do we?)

[Son of a Beach]

Gore-tex have told their customers that if they use eVent they will no longer be permitted to buy Goretex fabric. They have told all factories that make Goretex garments that they are if they make eVent garments for anyome then they will no longer be permitted to manufacture Goretex. They are very very protectinist about that.

Sounds like what Microsoft used to do (with other operating systems) before the court ordered asked them to (pleeeeeaaaase) stop.

It always takes a long time for new products to gain traction against a big player with a good reputation (whether the new product is better or not). Having more competition in this space can only be a good thing, so I'm hoping that eVent really takes off. It sounds like a great product (apart from the trendy name, although 'iVent' would probably have been even worse).

I won't be in the market for a new jacket for probably a couple of decades, by which time I hope that eVent has good market penetration, that competition has driven prices down from the completely ridiculous current costs, and that eVent has been well used enough for long enough to be well known for how it performs (assuming it lives up to the hype, which I guess it will).

[sthughes]

Gore-tex have told their customers that if they use eVent they will no longer be permitted to buy Goretex fabric. They have told all factories that make Goretex garments that they are if they make eVent garments for anyome then they will no longer be permitted to manufacture Goretex. They are very very protectinist about that.

Well I believe here in Aus that's illegal - I'd be having a chat to the ACCC.

[Ent]

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[corvus]

Oops have I restarted light weight versus heavy weight debate again

Cheers Brett

Et tu Bretti
C

[Nuts]

blacksheep, its a matter of perspective, isnt the aim of good marketing to blurr the borders...all in all, oilskins suffice for 90%, 90% of the time....

anyhow, so, macpac have chosen not to use goretex and go with event (is that the gamble)?

[Ent]

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[Nuts]

lol i woked for a company that used japara until well after gore arrived. interestingly, we used to get as many comments about how good the gear was as now with higher tech..

[blacksheep]

Nuts- correct. We made the call that we would offer a product we feel performs better for our customers.
Brett- we still see an application for cotton (such as ventile) for extreme cold (dry snow etc) for windbreaker and down product. (I have made apparel and tenst for expedition use to extreme climates with Ventile cotton. But it has to be extremely low humidity to consider this use.

[Nuts]

Honestly blacksheep, good on you then, wish i was in a position to be buying gear atm.
Hope you havent been too early with the change, hope it works ok for ya

[Ent]

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[blacksheep]

the thing is Brett, we make all our samples and all our patterns here, and QA check all the specs/measuremnts of pre-production and production...who cuts the patterns and sews them together makes no impact on fit.
that being said, somne of the product we bought when we took over the business had some fit issues, I agree with you there...I think we have tidied all of these up over the last 12mth. (i'm kinda long limbed and certainly expect to be able to wear Macpac)