(Ultra)Lightweight pack options

[simonm]

Hi all,

I am trying to convince a mate, who makes very decent rugged packs, to have a crack at designing and making a lightweight pack. It would be good to have another local option available commercially. I have seen his work and tested out one his packs and the build quality was excellent so I have no doubt if he could nail the design the lightweight pack would be high quality.

What features would you like to see in a lightweight pack? Fabrics, design, weight etc.

[DanShell]

I know the very concept of UL is going to suggest that you have a very UL base weight but lets assume you are loaded and ready to walk for a few days with water and food and your pack weighs in around 10kgs or so.

I have a golite frameless pack and without being too harsh on the product I found it doesn't carry well on me with around 10kg's in it, even though its rated up around 14kg's.

So the one feature Id like to see on an UL pack is an UL frame that distributes the weight properly.

[simonm]

Yep I am with with you Dan. I prefer a frame of some description.

[Bluegum Mic]

Ditto on the frame. Also a robust enough fabric thats still light ie robic or x-pac

[Penguin]

I have a GoLite 50l Jam with no frame and love it. Carried 14.8kg without water starting the Western Arthurs for seven days with no hassle. Being a small pack it got less knocked around than the larger packs carried by others.

Recently used a One Planted Shadow for a couple days happily at about 10kg. This was one of the earlier non canvas Shadows. Preferred the jam though as it fits my back well I tend not to bump it against things

Boils down to your back. The one change I would make on the jam is slightly wider shoulder straps.

P

[Bubbalouie]

Yep I am with with you Dan. I prefer a frame of some description.

Ditto, I'm a big fan of the osprey and zpacks "trampoline" suspension, besides mechanical comfort they let your back breath just a bit better.

[Penguin]

Ditto, I'm a big fan of the osprey and zpacks "trampoline" suspension, besides mechanical comfort they let your back breath just a bit better.

I have a 45l(appprox) Osprey with the trampoline and plastic frame also. Now mainly use it when I do the fortnightly supermarket shop, walk to shops rather than drive. Even in hot weather, low humidity in the main and not over 35 degrees, still prefer the rucksack style of the jam nestled against my back. Would not be surprised if I am in the minority.

P

[MicheleK]

I think having a harness option that is specific for the female form is a good thing and would increase the market of the product.

I have a ULA Circuit, which is great. I like that you can mix and match harnesses and pack size depending on your size, shape and gender. I am not so sure of the fold over top closure, but have learnt to deal with it. I preferred my macpac top closing system, but this of course meant more zips, closures etc to increase the weight. I like the smallness of it, and feel very smug when i am mistaken for a daywalker when out on a 6 night walk. I don't like that it is not waterproof.

Hope that helps.

[Lizzy]

I like a pack with pockets on the side deep enough for a waterbottle to stay secure (or an Aarn with front pockets....)

[simonm]

It's all helpful thanks. I know Benny is following this thread with interest.

I do know Benny got in samples in of Xpac so that may be a possibility and the manufacturers of that are very easy to work with. Robic fabric as mentioned may be slightly more difficult to obtain or at least they are non responsive to my emails so far.

[Turfa]

I would add another vote for some kind of frame. Just seem to carry better than a frameless for me. Also, doesn't matter how light the pack is, it has to have pockets on the hipbelt...for snacks of course !
Side pockets should be accessible for water bottles or maps etc. while wearing the pack.
I also really like having loops to hold hiking poles that can be accessed while walking.
I too have never been a fan of roll-top closures....can't explain why... just prefer a lid on my pack .

Minimal use of padding is good..... no point having a light pack that gets heavy because it soaks up water or sweat like a sponge ! (Osprey frame is great in this way)

[wayno]

i've got black diamond packs that use a thick wire that acts as a frame, has some give in it, combined with some plastic sheet it does the job of providing a frame to distribute the weight well to the shoulder straps and belt. the wire doesnt have a round cross section, more like a thin eliptical one

[Whits]

Also an Elastic front pocket that will take a wet rain coat, like the ones on Ospreys or Black Diamond.

[Suz]

I agree with pretty much everything said so far - altho against turfa's dislike of padding - I need padding around the hips and shoulders - so maybe a waterproof material over the padding that is not toooo slippery (so the fit is firm) to satisfy us both

Also, yes to frame - as a woman I want 90% of the weight to be carried by my hips at all times - they can take it without suffering. My shoulders HATE having weight on them - I don't have the upper body strength of a man to support the weight and also my collar bones stick out and they get bruised - I look at shoulder straps almost as just something to keep the pack fitted/aligned correctly with my back for ergonomic carrying.

Also those S shoulder straps are good as they go around the side of the boobage and not over them. Also, the height adjustable chest strap is maybe good - altho I have never been satisfied with the fit of one on any pack. Most of the potential buyers would be guys I imagine - so I guess you want the ability to select the kind of straps you want?

I would also like it to be hydration system compatible - I use walking poles and although of course I can fiddle about with my poles and reach back down the side for a bottle - I would prefer to have the hose just conveniently hanging there over my shoulder.

I also like the design of the Zpacks arc haul zip backpack that entry to the pack in that kind of suitcasey way that my Kathmandu interloper has, here: http://www.zpacks.com/backpacks/arc_haul_zip.shtml -- so you can stay tidy.

Maybe this is against the whole concept of ultra lightness but I do really want a pack with a separate bottom compartment where I can put heavy + dirty things and keep them away from from my clean stuff. It is alright to put something dirty and light in a mesh pocket off the main pack - but I wouldn't want significant weight hanging off there. Although I would want one of those mesh pockets for rain coat / tent drying too.

I'd also want 1 or 2 x smaller enclosed zip pockets (one for electronics / wallet / passport - e.g. all the precious stuff) and maybe one for toiletries ( to keep away liquids that might leak from stuff like my packed clothes and electronics).

Maybe your mate Simonm could reinvent the whole backpack world by creating a modular pack where everything is customisable - like phonebloks want to do with smartphones.

[Strider]

Maybe your mate Simonm could reinvent the whole backpack world by creating a modular pack where everything is customisable - like phonebloks want to do with smartphones.

If modular is your thing, check out the Molly Mac Pack or One Planet Polar Pack

[simonm]

I do have a Molly Mac Pack as suggested by Strider but it's funny you mention modular as my mates other packs are modular to a degree, so you can had pockets etc. He is working on this design as a standard feature for his packs, though I have not convinced him to go lightweight as of yet. However, there is another pack maker in Oz about to hit the market who will be doing lightweight packs.

[Suz]

that molly mac is more rack than pack, but cool - actually looking at a pack like that, it sort of demystifies DIY packs for me I think. It looks like it would be quite good for wildlife rescue (altho the website specifically suggests the opposite. I mean I wouldn't carry an animal on my back I don't think - but perhaps a lot of the tools required for rescue. I am terribly useless at anything crafty tho, so I'm sure my hands could not replicate what my mind creates. Anyhow, worth thinking about! The One Planet looks good too.

Why is your mate not pro-lighweight? Too niche? I look forward to hearing more about Oz made lightweight packs

[simonm]

Why is your mate not pro-lighweight? Too niche? I look forward to hearing more about Oz made lightweight packs

I would not say he is not pro lightweight it's just that he has a focus on durability so his packs are constructed using 500D and 1000d nylon. It's early days for him though and he is still getting his design sorted. He is sending a day pack out for me to check out soon.

[Suz]

ah i see. durability is good.

[gbedford]

What has been said in previous posts is good advice.
Some factors are based on true principles others are personal preferences.
Durability has to be traded against weight.
Comfort is important
What terrain/climate/vegetation will it be used in. many lightweight materials fall apart in scrub or away from manicured tracks
I agree with Suz about the hip belt and shoulder straps.
What weight you expect to carry and this is affected by length of walk, terrain/ climate/bank balance/food preferences/camp comfort etc
Many people use their gear in a narrow range of conditions and then base their dogmatic assertions on that experience. What is suitable in one location might not be the best in others. This makes it difficult for manufactures

I am very very happy with my Exped Lightning 60 but I have modified it to suit my personal preference. The material is tough enough to not be torn up by scrub. It is large enough to carry supplies and equipment for a week or more and allow for poor weather conditions. It has sufficient frame to handle loads of 15 kg. I don't normally carry that weight except when water has to be carried or as I said about a long walk.
The hip belt is very comfortable and able to handle the heavier loads. It has some handy hip belt pockets but I would prefer them to be better waterproofed. it is adjustable enough for different body sizes. I like the roll top but have added a lid as I like easy access to some items. I think lids should be a modular option as mentioned above. You could then choose. I have cut of some of the tape as I don't hang things off my sack. I intend replacing the rest of the tape with cord as it is less fiddly.

Pockets on the front of the sack should be modular. I don't like carrying much there as it is getting away from the spine load axis. Never used a netting pocket for carrying a wet tent as favoured by Americans. A Heavy load away from the spine. A wet tent getting wetter,dirtier and perhaps torn by scrub. On a manicured track probably fine. If it was modular then people would have the option. Some people like big side pockets for water bottle. I carry my water in the lid with the weight above the spine. I don't like things sticking out or can fall out. I stop to drink. Perhaps that is a reflection of my climbing experience. Sometimes you can hang a small bottle of the shoulder strap but that is weight on the shoulder. nevertheless these are all just personal preferences.

As I said I am very happy with my modified Exped Lightning 60. I Like its compromise of weight, durability, comfort, waterproofness, convenience, capacity and features for my bushwalking in S.E. Australia.

[Joomy]

My perfect pack:

-Flexible carbon frame with suspended mesh panel a la Zpacks but with slightly heavier stock suitable up to 20-25kg.
-VX-21 or 150d poly/cuben or similar main fabric, VX-42 or similar bottom fabric
-4x daisy chains a la HMG Porter pack.
-3x compression straps per side a la HMG porter
-Detachable (i.e. attach onto daisy chains) side water bottle pockets.
-Detachable front pocket/small day pack (~20L, less than 200g, cf. Laufbursche Packsack)
-Well padded hip belt with hip belt pockets and 3D mesh.
-Well padded shoulder straps w/ load lifters - adjustable a la Zpacks.
-Waterproof with roll top closure and seam taped - as few seams as possible in construction.

Main pack weight under 1000g (55 to 60L)
Full accessorised pack under 1200g

I think it's doable as it's basically an HMG porter/Zpacks Arc Haul Hybrid with modular pockets. I will make it one day, but currently don't have the motivation for an epic project like this.

Edit: Forgot to add: I really like the idea of a big U-shaped water-resistant zip on the pack body, like the Zpacks Arc Haul.

[simonm]

This is one of the packs from Dan at Wilderness Threadworks, not sure where he is at with regards to taking orders.

Blackburn Pack.JPG (105.13 KiB) Viewed 33740 times

[Joomy]

Simon, that is a very handsome pack. Very similar to an HMG Porter in many ways. But at that weight I'm guessing it has no rigid frame? Just the foam padding?

[simonm]

Simon, that is a very handsome pack. Very similar to an HMG Porter in many ways. But at that weight I'm guessing it has not solid frame? Just the foam padding?

Yes mate I believe that is the case re: the frame.

[gbedford]

That Blackburn pack looks great but I personally believe it needs some form of frame. Apart from comfort and important reason for a frame is back ventilation as per Joomy's comment about the Zpacks mesh. I am not sure about the bottom side compression strap instead of a pocket. Just based on my experience of being able to slot gear in the pocket and not have it slip through. The hip belt needs good padding and design. The attachable options is the way to go. Personally I like lids as I have mentioned before. I don't really like big a zipper opening as my experience is they leak water and fail before anything else.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

I'm not encouraging plagiarism here, however as suggested earlier, your friend should try and get his hands on a ULA circuit.

More comfortable than I ever imagined anything "ultralight" could be. Separate sizing for the hipbelt and pack seems to be the first reason for that.
Only thing I'm not super keen on is the roll top closure top... But then I can't think of anything better.

[simonm]

That Blackburn pack looks great but I personally believe it needs some form of frame. Apart from comfort and important reason for a frame is back ventilation as per Joomy's comment about the Zpacks mesh. I am not sure about the bottom side compression strap instead of a pocket. Just based on my experience of being able to slot gear in the pocket and not have it slip through. The hip belt needs good padding and design. The attachable options is the way to go. Personally I like lids as I have mentioned before. I don't really like big a zipper opening as my experience is they leak water and fail before anything else.

I would imagine Dan has a few other packs planned, perhaps with a frame, but it's certainly a good start.

I'm not encouraging plagiarism here, however as suggested earlier, your friend should try and get his hands on a ULA circuit.

More comfortable than I ever imagined anything "ultralight" could be. Separate sizing for the hipbelt and pack seems to be the first reason for that.
Only thing I'm not super keen on is the roll top closure top... But then I can't think of anything better.

The ULA packs certainly get a good rap in the USA. I have a pack now with a roll top closure, and yes I am not completely sold on the idea either.

[Joomy]

I'm not encouraging plagiarism here, however as suggested earlier, your friend should try and get his hands on a ULA circuit.

More comfortable than I ever imagined anything "ultralight" could be. Separate sizing for the hipbelt and pack seems to be the first reason for that.
Only thing I'm not super keen on is the roll top closure top... But then I can't think of anything better.

By all accounts most of the ultralight packs are very comfortable these days. HMG, ZPacks, ULA, elemental horizons (I've tried 2 of these) all make roughly 1kg packs that carry reasonably heavy loads very well. The cutting edge seems to be a sub kilo pack that will carry up to 20kg, is acceptably waterproof and durable for Aussie scrub. The ZPacks Arc Haul seems to approach this but I haven't actually tried it and I don't love PU coated fabrics for long term hard use.

[gbedford]

Yes that is the trouble with PU coated fabrics. I have no experience of Dimension-Polyvant but that could be better.

[Joomy]

All reports suggest it is far better since the WP layer is a monolithic film which is protected on both sides. That is the main reason I am interested in VX21, I don't think it's any more abrasion resistant than Dyneema X-Grid but I feel the waterproofing will last far longer.