The importance of grid conversion to lat and long

[Phil Box]

With the increasing prevalence of helicopter evacuation by emergency services these days it is prudent for clubs and bushwalkers to know how to convert grid references to lat and long. At least be able to pinpoint where one is in latitude and longitude. It's a fairly simple process in a GPS but a little more problematic on a map. All maps usually have lat and long on the sides of the map and that will be shown somewhat simialr to grid references. Learn how to read those coordinates.

Helicopter pilots just do not know anything about grid references and neither do the emergency services operator at the other end of the phone. It is encumbent on the person out in the bush to be able to send the correct lat and long coordinates to ensure rescue. Don't rely on anyone other than yourself knowing where you are or being able to convert your grid coordiantes to lat and long.

After a recent search for a missing walker in Running Creek, SE Qld. it was very very evident that bushwalking clubs and walkers generally need to upskill to be able to send lat and long. Sure the search can be done in grid but when it comes time to communicate with a helicopter then lat and long needs to be transmitted. Even the crack S&R gurus in the police could not work out where they were sufficiently to let the helicopter know where they were.

I'd recommend that a walk leader has a GPS on themselves with which the conversion to lat and long from grid is fairly trivial. Just go to settings and change it there. Easy. Go back to the Go To page and read the coordinates there.

Guess who the emergency services relies on when looking for more volunteers during a critical search. You, muggins, be prepared as the scouts would say.

[tastrax]

Here is a place to do a quick conversion - http://www.ga.gov.au/geodesy/datums/red ... to_geo.jsp

Its also exceptionally easy to convert between many formats in Oziexplorer

and I am also sure that some Garmins have a quick key to change the on screen grid reference from UTM (if selected) back to Lat Lon. (I will check at work tomorrow)

[flatfoot]

I often print to-scale A4 extracts of 1:25000 topos from the NSW TopoView DVDs. I laminate and fold these for use on walks as it's much more compact than carrying a full map ( and works out cheaper too ).

I usually just setup a UTM grid before printing it to a PDF file (I file away the PDFs for future use). I'm going to see if I can setup a lat/long grid as well. It will help me with being more familiar with using those co-ordinates.

I use OziExplorer for preparing the map extracts.

[tastrax]

You can add both in Ozi but the map borders get a bit cluttered.

[Paul]

"Helicopter pilots just do not know anything about grid references and neither do the emergency services operator at the other end of the phone."

I am not happy with the above quote.

Why would Queensland helicopter pilots and emergency services people be so different to thier counterparts here in Tas.
After locating a lost mother and her baby in the central highlands, I radioed our GRID REFERENCE to the EOC ( Emergency Operations Centre ) and the Rescue Helicopter arrived overhead within 15 minutes.

Perhaps the Queensland people could come done here and do some training - learn something from our very professional and highly skilled people .

Paul.

[photohiker]

I agree with you Paul.

I don't know if the original poster is correct or not, but it certainly sounds like a nonsense that a helicopter pilot would be somehow locked into Lat and Long and be unable to convert between them when the rest of Australia is talking GR on their maps and generally UTM on their GPS.

[walkinTas]

Head to http://www.diamondspirit.net/adunk/software.html and download the ConvertCoord utility. Converts between East/North, DMS & Decimal Degress for all map zones across Aus and different Datum. Can even show the result in Google Earth.

[sthughes]

I thought down here in Tassie GDA94 was the way to go, not lat/long.
I have to do Emergency management plans at work (for use primarily by the emergency services) and these get rejected if not in GDA94 UTM . When I was in the fire brigade they used UTM co-ordinates as well from memory.

[BarryJ]

I thought down here in Tassie GDA94 was the way to go, not lat/long.
I have to do Emergency management plans at work (for use primarily by the emergency services) and these get rejected if not in GDA94 UTM . When I was in the fire brigade they used UTM co-ordinates as well from memory.

Makes much more sense to me. It is much easier to estimate the co-ordinates of your position (provided you know where you are) in UTM co-ordinates on an actual map than to try to estimate the lat & long or apply some sort of field conversion.

[ILUVSWTAS]

I did an overnight navigational course recently and was told LAT/LONG is no longer used on land.

[johnw]

It was nearly 3 years ago, so my memory may be a bit vague, but during remote area first aid training I seem to recall that we were told to quote the 6 digit grid reference to emergency services personnel.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Yes John. We were told the same thing.

I suspect the original poster may be having us on to test our knowledge??

[Azza]

lat and long isn't much use when all our reference maps are UTM..
On a map a grid coordinate system is more useful that degress minutes seconds etc.

I think the more import issue is knowning how to convert between GDA94 (WGS84) and AGD66.
Most of our published maps are still in the old datum, and mixing the UTM coords up between the two is a recipe for disaster.
There is 200m or so difference between the same grid references.
In that case blindly plugging coordinates into GPS'es and maps isn't always going to give you the right results.

[tomh]

In Queensland anyway I can confirm Phil Box is correct, although I know you will be extemely surprised that for once Queensland is different in some way. Representations have been made for some time to add coords but so far no luck. To quote from an email I have from Feb 2009 with respect to a rescue in Brisbane Forest Park, the helicopter pilots needed lat-long and:
"I have spoken with David Hogan, Queensland Ambulance Service (QAS) and he confirmed that at present the QAS Communication Centre is limited to using either latitude/longitude, a street name (with number) found in a Referdex, or an estimated distance and direction from a known township or key point (again locatable in a referdex). Although David said he would attempt to have QAS review their procedure, I believe that change by QAS is unlikely in the short term."
and to my knowledge that situation hasn't changed.

Tom

[tomh]

Since my last post I have talked to a recently retired and experienced pilot. His reply to the lat-long/grid ref question mentioned by Paul and photohiker was
"He (the pilot) is limited by the limitations of his on board avionics. A Flight Management System Computer only knows Lat/Long..period"
so it is more likely any conversion is done first by the Emergency Operations Centre, and in Queensland should be done if they could by the QAS (ambulance).

Tom

[photohiker]

I've done a bit of follow up with emergency services on this issue.

Not many have responded yet, but the results so far are:

Tas: All helicopter autopilot/flight director coupling to GPS waypoints are based on lat & long data in decimals. We can convert map references if necessary but GPS locations in UTM are more problematic.

SA: When we respond to searches on the ground, we operate GPSs for our search teams as well as a GPS in the police helicopter. Emergency services have the capability to convert any of these methods quite easily.

So based on the information received so far, it does look like the Helicopter avionics are decimal Lat/Long based, however a Grid Reference would not present a problem for either SA or Tasmania.

If the other states respond, I will update this post.

[Macca81]

although I know you will be extemely surprised that for once Queensland is different in some way.

knowing what i know about queensland, i could not be any further from surprised

It was nearly 3 years ago, so my memory may be a bit vague, but during remote area first aid training I seem to recall that we were told to quote the 6 digit grid reference to emergency services personnel.

I did an overnight navigational course recently and was told LAT/LONG is no longer used on land.

i was under this impression also.
i teach my scouts lat/long because its something that is still used in some instances, but i also ensure they are aware that using the grid referance is prefered in most instances...

[tasadam]

That's all news to me, if I was dialling 000 on the mobile or sending help out by wqay of a fast and able body, I would give location as the map name and the 6 digit grid reference.
Or I would give them coordinates from my GPS which I would normally have with me. I guess if reading from the GPS it would be important to tell them which datum the GPS is set to for those coordinates, otherwise they could be a couple of hundred metres out.
And if on the phone, I would ask them if they want me to set off the PLB (GPS model) that I also carry, so they can pinpint easily.
My GPS can give me lat/lon as well as UTM so I could always quote both.

[Liamy77]

SAR (SES sar teams) in WA have GPS units among their kit and could convert it using these....

and worst case senario they have about a 200m radius circle to search.... still pretty accurate, just slows it down a little i guess.

[tas-man]

(snip)After a recent search for a missing walker in Running Creek, SE Qld. it was very very evident that bushwalking clubs and walkers generally need to upskill to be able to send lat and long. Sure the search can be done in grid but when it comes time to communicate with a helicopter then lat and long needs to be transmitted. Even the crack S&R gurus in the police could not work out where they were sufficiently to let the helicopter know where they were.
(snip)

This comment brought back memories of a search and rescue in this area in January 1977 (back in map and compass only days!) which was the catalyst for major changes in the use of maps and radios for S & R in SE Queensland. A group had got lost on the border track and had ended up in the upper reaches of Grady's Creek south of the border. A rescue party had found them, was in radio contact, but was not sure of their exact location to give a grid reference for a back up party to assist. They had been spotted late afternoon by a police search aircraft in a creek bed, but the police pilot only had aviation charts and a Lamington National Park map with him and could not identify exactly where they were. At that time, the Queensland National Parks Maps did not have any Australian Geodetic Datum grids on them, and only a few had a A-Z & 1-XX grid referencing system. I was the FMR PR rep at search base camp on Running Creek, and got nominated to fly at first light next day with the police plane to get a grid reference of the lost party's location. I took with me the Lamington 1:25,000 Topogaphic map and a radio on the same network as the ground parties, and by flying a north/south search pattern was able to get a grid reference by getting the ground party to advise when we flew overhead. Once I had established exactly where they were, I was able to give them a compass bearing to a forestry road in the Wiangaree State Forest where they could be picked up by Police in 4wd vehicles. As a result of three S&R events in that month, the Qld Police organised a de-briefing session for all parties involved, and as a result new NP Maps were to have Aust Geo Datum grids to help with future searches, and SES and Police radios were to be able to work on a combined network in emergencies.

How different it is now 30+ years later with GPS's and digital mapping systems!

[tasadam]

An interesting reflection of how things used to be, thanks for sharing.

[Liamy77]

That's all news to me, if I was dialling 000 on the mobile or sending help out by wqay of a fast and able body, I would give location as the map name and the 6 digit grid reference.........

Actually shouldn't you call 112 in Australia from a mobile phone and 000 from a land line?
...not sure about sat phones though - I guess they'd be 112 aswell...??? (no doubt someone can tell us what it'd be )

[Phil Box]

Hey Tas Man, you'll be no doubt pleased to note that I am also an FMR man. Been in the org now for 15 years I suppose. Ted is once again Pres, Ron has by and large quietly bowed out. A few of the old crew still soldiering on. We are developing a more updated nav course and hence aprt of the reason for the post that started this thread. Didn't want to interject too much which may have stifled debate. I wanted to hear the unvarnished truth of peoples opinions.

We recently ran a nav weekend up in Bundaberg for the local club there. It was amazing that so much still needs to be passed on to people in regards to navigation. It is a skill that needs constant practice and use. I was also on a recent outdoor ed camp with grade 9 kids. After about 3/4 of an hour I had them navigating me and the teacher to all points of the compass. We found some awesome country up around Brooyar which is near Gympie. They kept turning around and asking if they were going the right way. I kept telling them to trust themselves and that the only thing I would help them with was to get them on the bus in two days time if they did get lost. ) They took it seriously then. ) I gave them a grid to navigate to during one session with the little darlings which took us up to the base of a set of cliffs. They asked why we needed to be up in this dangerous location. I told them they needed to know how to navigate and traverse around steep country, besides I like cliffs and it is all about me after all. They think it is all about them but oh no, it's all me me me. Have I bene around kids too long. )

[tomh]

Actually shouldn't you call 112 in Australia from a mobile phone and 000 from a land line?
...not sure about sat phones though - I guess they'd be 112 aswell...??? (no doubt someone can tell us what it'd be )

half right....
but it's all explained here
http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_100575
and an extract:
"Triple Zero (000) is Australia's primary Emergency Call Service number and should be used to access emergency assistance from all telephones (landline, mobile phones and payphones) in the first instance."

[optdyl]

...not sure about sat phones though - I guess they'd be 112 aswell...??? (no doubt someone can tell us what it'd be )

I saw a comparison between sat phones the other day, and it largly depends on the sat provider. Australian providers are more likely to recognise both 000 and 112; whereas international providers will probably only recognise 112.

This article has an interesting comparison of different methods of communication for bushwalkers.

dyl

[tas-man]

Hey Tas Man, you'll be no doubt pleased to note that I am also an FMR man. Been in the org now for 15 years I suppose. Ted is once again Pres, Ron has by and large quietly bowed out. A few of the old crew still soldiering on. We are developing a more updated nav course and hence aprt of the reason for the post that started this thread. Didn't want to interject too much which may have stifled debate. I wanted to hear the unvarnished truth of peoples opinions. [snip]

That's great to hear Phil, that FMR is still a force to be reckoned with Geeze I could go on a bit with my memories of the beginings of BMSRS (Bush & Mountain Search & Rescue Service) which became FMR (Federation ((of Qld bushwalking Clubs)) Mountain Rescue). Perhaps I should start a thread in the Queensland section for a bit of FMR history. I still have my copy of the first edition, October 1969, of the BMSRS Rescue Manual that was written and produced by Rick White (Mt Designs founder). http://www.rickwhitememorial.org/about_rick.aspx
One of the editors was Paul Caffyn who made a name for himself with his kyakying exploits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Caffyn

[Phil Box]

Yes that would be excellent to have that history down on the net.

[fishsmith]

No need to convert anything, send what you have and they will come.

[jez_au]

No need to convert anything, send what you have and they will come.

Surely true, conversions in the field would be very difficult to make. Changing a GPS setting from UTM to lat/long would work. Emergency services in SA can certainly use grid references, there is a long history of rural properties being referred to using grid references - the RAPID system (6 digits only, no map number, use locality instead), although that is being phased out during 2011 in leiu of the new Property Address System. Emergency services were unable to locate our property using logical directions (ie on the corner of such-and-such a road just off such-and-such a road) the first time we called, a week later (it was a crazy week) they found it quickly using the RAPID number.

[taswegian]

jez_au - this sort of thing was much discussed on a GIS forum I subscribe to.

the RAPID system (6 digits only, no map number, use locality instead),

What is the format - what does it look like please. I'm interested to know more.
I Googled and got a Rapidmap site.

Recently I wanted to report some power supply issues and so I dialled the number and explained where I was and they wanted to know where that was and in what state etc.
I explained the urgency and said I'd just hang up which I did and dialled the police. (thats a rather abbreviated description of events)