Bushwalk Australia

Kathmandu shares are in a bit of a slump:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/kathmandu-slumps-on-forecast-20100804-119gd.html

The store in my suburb is usually empty when I walk past. I'd personally prefer them to charge realistic prices for gear all year round. For example $44 for a metal water bottle is a joke.

Yes they are an embarrasement to themselves.
I got a waterproof pad from their "discount warehouse"a while back $5 reduced from $34.99.

Wonder if it's related to Jan Cameron's plans to start a rival company undercutting them on price - from memory she was talking about starting up in late 2010.

Yes this thread has reawakened my "grumpy old man" as concerns gear in general. When I first started to get into extended walking 25 years or so ago the first thing that became apparent was the need for well constructed and reliable equipment. In fact some of this gear still serves me well today eg J&H Bushlite Super bag etc. One now has to wade amongst and look far afield to find decent kit as opposed to the fashion conscious \ trendily displayed gear offered by many "outdoor stores" these days.
Phil.

The age old story! In order to appeal to the masses, the product has to be sold at a price the masses can afford/ will pay. Sadly, there is an direct relationship between quality and price.

Singe wrote:Wonder if it's related to Jan Cameron's plans to start a rival company undercutting them on price - from memory she was talking about starting up in late 2010.

According to the following article from the Sydney Morning Herald her non-compete clause is till 2011:
http://www.smh.com.au/business/kathmandu-or-kathmandont-20091103-huzf.html
The whole article is a good read and it will be interesting to see what happens if she does go ahead with her plans.

Ah I'll miss old Krapmandu... all that stuff I never bought there because they sell junk. Actually I do own some Kathmandu stuff from about 1996. Some of it actually says "Made in New Zealand" on the labels.

The old Kathmandu gear was solid. This is ten years ago or so. But we could probably throw that blanket over a few other brands, Australian and International.

I have a Krapmandoooo bag from about 7 years ago... a smallish pack that i bought to store my hydration bladder and spares in for when i used to mountain bike a lot... the stiching started to come apart in some superficial places after only a few weeks (nothing structural thankfully) and it looks a bit ratty now because of it, but it has done the job quite well for me over the years... it now stores my shinpads and balls for hockey in it (im to cheap to buy a hockey bag )

i think i bought this pack at about the time the brand was going through its phase from kathmandu to krapmandoo. at the time there was some stuff in the store that looked reasonably bombproof, but others that you wouldnt take anywhere but on a walk down the street. last time i was in there was about 3 years ago... i couldnt find anything i would feel comfortable buying other than a couple of thermarest mats, but they cost nearly double the going price in the other local stores... i wont be back in anytime soon...

NickD wrote:The old Kathmandu gear was solid. This is ten years ago or so. But we could probably throw that blanket over a few other brands, Australian and International.

>>>Queue Brett and Black Sheep barney

I still have my krapydoo footy pillow, good as new! (wasn no good as a pillow and not much of a footy)

Nuts wrote:I still have my krapydoo footy pillow, good as new! (wasn no good as a pillow and not much of a footy)

Lol.

I can proudly say I've never even been in a Krapmandu store, much less bought any of their gear.

So that's one thing I've done right in my life . . .

ollster wrote:

NickD wrote:The old Kathmandu gear was solid. This is ten years ago or so. But we could probably throw that blanket over a few other brands, Australian and International.

>>>Queue Brett and Black Sheep barney

interestingly I left my role as design manager from K'du 10 years ago as I was not enjoying directional shift .
I have visited both the European and US outdoor trade shows this last month, I am very proud how our product compares on on international platform. (and international pre-orders for our new range of packs (out in AU this summer) suggest the market agrees).

Actually, I may be the only BWT member to have bought something there in the last month. They had a sale on and I bought some Solomon Fastpackers. Cheapest in town.

The boots are very good - Next pair will be bought on the net though, savings are too much to ignore.

blacksheep wrote:

ollster wrote:

NickD wrote:The old Kathmandu gear was solid. This is ten years ago or so. But we could probably throw that blanket over a few other brands, Australian and International.

>>>Queue Brett and Black Sheep barney

interestingly I left my role as design manager from K'du 10 years ago as I was not enjoying directional shift .
I have visited both the European and US outdoor trade shows this last month, I am very proud how our product compares on on international platform. (and international pre-orders for our new range of packs (out in AU this summer) suggest the market agrees).

Thanks for the invite Ollster Always disappointing when rivial brands express poor opinions of their competitors makes you wonder if they are planning to run for government

Interesting though many are still posting their dismay over the pricing policy of massive recommended retail price and near immediate "sale" price reductions along with declining quality of goods so it is just not me with that experience Yes the common issue of "the gear was great when made in NZ, Australia, USA but not so now" is still a point amongst those of us that brought the older gear. Once clothing fitted my wingspan when Mountain Design was made in Australia and I even have a shirt with great arm length that was made in NZ. Even though this gear is well over ten years old and worn and washed so many times it is still in top condition only with the paint chipped off the zips giving a hint to its age. The argument of "sizing has not changed" is rather hollow as I am still wearing and fitting into those garments but not their "replacements". Still Paddy Pallin and MD occasionally brings in USA or European brands that adopt the sizing models that fit. Mammut stuff is great quality (and yes made off shore in Vietnam) so it can be done providing quality control is not forgotten in the rush to get the lowest price from some backyard factory. With that brand I cannot hope but notice that the fabric quality is excellent unlike a lot of other brands that are substituting generic home brand fabrics and claiming similar peformance.

I do feel that the marketing model of milking a premium brand with "average" quality gear marked at massive recommended retail price followed by "sales" to special groups such as "members", etc and then the general public with finally appearing on chuckout racks is been seen as what it is, a con. My build and sizing (49 boots) means I am more often than not "forced" into specialised brands and apart from the massive initial cost I find this is not a bad thing. The old adage that “quality is remembered long after price is forgotten” is very true And the real price is the discounted, discount, sale, chuckout price

Kathmandu might rally but the business model might nowadays be flawed and I have noticed that MD for sometime has been heading away from a single brand shop to one that stocks a range of the brands. You have the top end greatly respected ones such as One Planet along with new to us European ones such as Mammut with the home brand been marketed as a respectable cheaper alternative. Even then MD home brand does with say thermals have top quality NZ products. Strange that a company claiming a NZ heritage cannot manage to do that Still if your business strategy is getting the lowest cost to achieve the highest markup then this might be the "best" approach.

Cheers Brett

(Now play the Billy Joel song, "We did not start the fire" and get ready for winter to be a little bit warmer )

NickD wrote:The old Kathmandu gear was solid. This is ten years ago or so. But we could probably throw that blanket over a few other brands, Australian and International.

This is why I sometimes (no actually it seems that I take every opportunity to) stick the boot into Macpac - simply don't want to see a manufacturer of formerly great gear succumb to the temptation of the dark side. Kathmandu may yet turn out to be a cautionary tail - whatcha think Blacksheep?

i would like to think that if macpac did go down the path of creating gear for the masses, it would still have a line of products that was made for proper walkers... macpac elite series perhaps?

Macca81 wrote:i would like to think that if macpac did go down the path of creating gear for the masses, it would still have a line of products that was made for proper walkers... macpac elite series perhaps?

Quite chuckle as its not Mountain Design doing this with Pro-elite range? Will like ovis aries the imitators follow suit?

Cheers Brett

in terms of a business model, it makes sense to build gear to suit the masses... a successful business has a larger number of clients (or a small number and charges a fortune!) every rule of good business points macpac in the direction of building lots of gear that appeals to lots of people so that they have a high turnover. every rule of common sense says that this will gradually bring down the quality of the gear as the quantity increases.
it would be stupid for macpac not to take a path of mass production if the business model shows that it will succeed. this gear can easily be made offshore for a dime and sold to the masses who want to have the latest and greatest in a brand name that everyone knows.

this then opens the door for a small section of macpac to dedicate itself to running the original 'cottage industry' that it started as. create one line of goods that remains under the macpac name, that caters for the user who wants innovative, functional, high quality gear. this will be the top of the line stuff that will naturally cost a little more (onshore manufacturing + more work involved in testing etc = higher cost than offshore, run of the mill gear).

i dont know what mountain design is doing these days, but i think that macpac can cover for most areas if it wanted to... in these days of the internet, it doesnt take long for people to pick up on quality changes... but, it also doesnt take long for people to pick up on the specialised lines that the average joe punter doesnt see when he walks into a store full of "brand name fashionable gear".

just my thoughts. i like macpac, even if i dont actually have any macpac gear myself i would like to see it maintaining a specialised line of gear for the likes of us

It is interesting that when Wilderness Wear faced the issue of going down market but still wanting to keep its brand reputation it started another brand called Three Peaks. This was an ethical approach and also protected the established brand name. Bit like the issue of a kitchen serving both sit down diners and take away customers. It is very hard not to standardise on one level of quality. The classic retail example is Coles - Myer. Coles just did not understand high end retail and as a result Myer sales stagnated and the slowly declined while David Jones powered ahead, current sexual harassment issue aside. It is curious that experienced retail hands predicted this but got howled down by people claiming that economy of size would win.

Whether Kathmandu’s slump is a reflection of general market conditions or of a business model that is nearing its "use by date" is something that only time will tell. My feeling is monolithic brands that cover a broad area will after an initial rapid growth period will then enter a long period of stagnation and slow decline as more focused manufacturers will nibble away. From an empirical perspective how many people have Wilderness Equipment packs and tents or with One Planet tents, packs and sleeping bags? Most of us cherry pick from each manufacturer based on what we are prepared to pay for something.

The ultimate question is "when does a brand lose its reputation". Hard to imagine nowadays that Teac and Grundig along with Zenith were the high end quality brands at their peak rather than sticker names on generic low end products. The damage to the reputation is so bad that if you were looking to capture the market segment that they occupied you would be better off starting with a new brand or buying Loewe or some other high end brand that has as yet to be compromised.

Bushwalking gear is a high end business with high margins. Buy an Elemental stainless steel drinking flask and it will cost around $30 from Allgoods but buy the exact same item from a local health food shop and it will cost around $15.00. I am sure that the Health Food shop is making a decent margin.

Cheers Brett