COVID-19 - General discussion

[neilmny]

Well put Ms_Mudd
Sometimes it would be good to have a like button. Although I never thought I'd be saying that.

[tastrax]

Really? Can you link to that please?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... st-updates
Asked in that same interview whether or not he would make downloading the tracing app, and traveling with phones, mandatory, Scott Morrison says:

My preference is not to do that, my preference is to give Australians the go of getting it right.

... I don’t want to be drawn on that [making it mandatory], I want to give Australians the opportunity to get it right. That is my objective, that is my Plan A and I really want Plan A to work.

It starts with 'I don't want to....' then an outbreak occurs, and 'well, my hand was forced'. Or maybe I woke up grumpy (and paranoide) today?

Thank you. I agree that would be disturbing.

I don't think he'd have much chance of getting that passed, even if he did make such a decision. But I've been wrong before. Once. Or twice.

I agree - we would all be rushing out to buy cheap non smart phones - https://www.telstra.com.au/mobile-phone ... stra-flip3

Only way they could make it mandatory would be by some default loading of the app to all 'smart phones' in Australia and I cant see Apple allowing that!

[ghosta]

App apparently wont be compulsory...but Im willing to bet if you want to go to the beach , park or similar places when restrictions are eased then you will have tohave it.

Guessing hacks will be developed soon after release to steal your data.

[gayet]

Just turn phone off. That might mean going back to the old way of doing things but depends on how concerned you are about being tracked....

[neilmny]

Just turn phone off. That might mean going back to the old way of doing things but depends on how concerned you are about being tracked....

What and potentially miss out on whether or not Joe Blow has had smashed avacado for breakfast............I'm nervous just contemplating that

[Baeng72]

Just turn phone off. That might mean going back to the old way of doing things but depends on how concerned you are about being tracked....

What and potentially miss out on whether or not Joe Blow has had smashed avacado for breakfast............I'm nervous just contemplating that

Joking aside, that is the only way to not be traced.
If you use a computer or smart phone (even dumb phone), you're leaving a meta data trail. ISPs and Telcos have to store that for 2 years.
As I mentioned the other day, if you've got a smart phone, there's a nice trail of data waiting for data-analytics to trace you.
So this new app doesn't do much more than add to the trail.
I distrust Morrison and co based on their history, but, I trust the medical experts, and I'm not advocating ignoring their (experts) advice and won't be going into the bush (local park excepted) until the experts say it's OK.

[Neo]

One reason I still pay cash.

There are some bank transfers/bills and a trail of how much money I withdraw and from where, but not which toothpaste or vegetables I prefer, how much fuel or McCrappy I may consume etc etc.

Mobile phone possession can be used to triangulate your location, in theit simplest form.

[GPSGuided]

I think they will get 40% participation just from those people that use their phones on a frequent basis.

Unfortunately it may not be so easy. The planned app is an Australian version based on the Singaporean app. There, they’ve barely achieved 20% usage within the population. For Australian and associated paranoia over privacy, I suspect that 40% won’t be reached especially when some in the LNP have already come out to refuse the app.

[GPSGuided]

One reason I still pay cash.

Many places won’t sell you things these days if you only have cash.

[neilmny]

One reason I still pay cash.

There are some bank transfers/bills and a trail of how much money I withdraw and from where, but not which toothpaste or vegetables I prefer, how much fuel or McCrappy I may consume etc etc.

Mobile phone possession can be used to triangulate your location, in theit simplest form.

What have you got to hide?
Who gives a rats where you are or where I am it's absolutely worthless information.
Throw away your smart phone or any other mobile phone your problem is solved.

[Moondog55]

While I have nothing at all to hide I totally agree with Neo on the invasion of our privacy by governments of all persuasions over the last few decades

[neilmny]

I can't think of any way that the government has invaded my privacy but as for facebook, google and all other "social" platforms....there lies the absolute invasion of privacy and with the assumed consent of all the participants and non participants alike.

[Biggles]

One reason I still pay cash.

There are some bank transfers/bills and a trail of how much money I withdraw and from where, but not which toothpaste or vegetables I prefer, how much fuel or McCrappy I may consume etc etc.

Mobile phone possession can be used to triangulate your location, in theit simplest form.

Nothing new or alarming about mobile triangulation, and it can be very useful in ascertaining movements of people, demonstrated occasionally with missing persons.

As for cash payments, well we should be moving away from cash and coins, especially. Australia is definitely doing this, and the Banks are leading the change. Contactless payment by card of phone is preferable to handling cash at this time. I have been cashless in payments for about 5 years now.

As for this stuff about spying with a mobile phone, consider something else that is gathering information about you: your car.
Any modern car with metrics telemetry is gathering and relaying information, either ad hoc or onboard storage for examination during service (via the OBD port). Onboard navigation also keeps a running record of where you have been, and Bluetooth knows a lot about you too! Just about all cars from Holdens, Ford, Mercedes, Volvo and BMW and Tesla (and especially MG, HAVAL and other Chinese brands) all have active telemetry; my own car had a fascinating record of who was driving, where, when and for how long when I first took delivery of it. This info can be deleted by the techies. So... funny isn't it, how people don't rise up in a brohah about this and just get in and drive away.

Anything else? Using a credit card is also involved in tracking your movements, which banks leverage for marketing and insight into shopping behaviour. Just the price for being a modern, highly connected and mobile community.

[Kuhr]

Can we do away with selfish shaming in civil discourse around the Coronavirus.

For context, this has been used by our governments historically (and arguably unjustly) to rob people of their freedoms. It was used to abort or adopt out children born out of wedlock (this almost happened to me in the '70s when I was born), steal a whole generation of indigenous children, shame conscientious objectors who refused the draft, push women out of manufacturing jobs back into the kitchen and raising children after world wars, and the list goes on.

It is reactionary colonial patriarchalism.

Cooperation from a population with a strong 'ned kelly' larrakinism streak is not achieved by shaming them and calling them selfish.

It is going to make them civilly disobedient and defiant.

p.s I am not endorsing civil disobedience. I am just pointing out the likely outcome.

[Biggles]

I can't think of any way that the government has invaded my privacy but as for facebook, google and all other "social" platforms....there lies the absolute invasion of privacy and with the assumed consent of all the participants and non participants alike.

"Assumed consent"!?
Actually when you sign up to Facebook, Instagram, Google...whatever other social platforms (especially ZOOM), you are giving express consent for the collection and dissemination of information the moment you click I Agree. Unfortunatley, it doesn't just open the door to your life for that specific entity (where you signed-on), but a conga line of others, directly and indirectly. In the case of Facebook, there is more tracking of your movement and discussion than anything else anywhere.

[neilmny]

The conga line is assumed consent and the fact that people not signed up get drawn into the conga line as you call it without consent.

[Neo]

Whilst I have nothing to hide, my spending and behaviour is my business. If someone wants to know, then they can ask me.
Google is pretty good for opting out of marketing in settings.
Yep if you have technology you leave a trail.
Pleased my mugshot is not on the web to be extracted by AI.

[Moondog55]

Pleased my mugshot is not on the web to be extracted by AI.

It is already if you have a passport or driving/shooters licence

[Biggles]

LOL. Yes, a licence is one place. Car rego another. The ATO too. Anybody, anywhere within cooee of a chinwag with Centrelink will be under the scope, big time. If you're worried about a phone app, you should probably be terrified of the power and depth and breadth of Centrelink's nose. Anyway, it's a big list of who's who, doing what, why and how often. We do not live in a Neanderthal world!

BTW, AI is a lot smarter than to waste time looking for, or at, your avatar. There are so many places it (and real humans too!), can glean information about you, such as every time you use the web.

[Neo]

Pleased my mugshot is not on the web to be extracted by AI.

It is already if you have a passport or driving/shooters licence

Article last week about a startup with new crowd surveillance software, they grabbed billions (iirc) of photos off the internet to start their database. AFP denied testing it but some officers had.

I have used the auto immigration checkpoint too! Don't mind if my government know what I look like.

[ghosta]

There is another issue with the app noone is talking about. It will be useless. Tracing only 40% of contacts who have spent at least 15 mins within 1.5 metres of an infected person does what...finds a few of the easiest persons to trace.

This a sham app designed to make the useless federal government look like they are doing something usefull.

[Baeng72]

There is another issue with the app noone is talking about. It will be useless. Tracing only 40% of contacts who have spent at least 15 mins within 1.5 metres of an infected person does what...finds a few of the easiest persons to trace.

This a sham app designed to make the useless federal government look like they are doing something usefull.

To be fair to the Federal Government, they are not useless, the give me a target to express my misanthropy!

[Xplora]

Can we do away with selfish shaming in civil discourse around the Coronavirus.

For context, this has been used by our governments historically (and arguably unjustly) to rob people of their freedoms. It was used to abort or adopt out children born out of wedlock (this almost happened to me in the '70s when I was born), steal a whole generation of indigenous children, shame conscientious objectors who refused the draft, push women out of manufacturing jobs back into the kitchen and raising children after world wars, and the list goes on.

It is reactionary colonial patriarchalism.

Cooperation from a population with a strong 'ned kelly' larrakinism streak is not achieved by shaming them and calling them selfish.

It is going to make them civilly disobedient and defiant.

p.s I am not endorsing civil disobedience. I am just pointing out the likely outcome.

I thought I was out of this but feel I have to answer you directly given my views seem to have directly sparked this response. We indeed all share something in common and that is we all have an opinion. You have every right to share yours as do I to not agree with it. I don't see how you equate calling people out for selfish behaviour that endangers the lives of many with what you speak of. Abortion, adoption, stolen generation and so on. Entirely different circumstances. You speak of civil disobedience and then liken Australians to a murder and a thief. Ned Kelly was not a larrakin. Perhaps consider the view of the families of those he killed and robbed. The more civil disobedience we have in this COVID 19 matter, the longer it will take for the rest of us to get out of lockdown. Do you get that? That is selfish and those doing the right thing (IMO) have every right to call it so. Thinking your own desires are more important than the collective good. If you think your own actions will not cause the virus to spread further and everyone else did the same then where would that leave us? Or is it more like there will be enough people doing the right thing (IMO) to make your the selfish actions of a few of little consequence? In other words, people should be allowed their freedom if they believe they are responsible enough to not pick up and spread this virus. I can point out the likely outcome of that also. There are consequences to civil disobedience and in my view those who engage in that behaviour in this matter deserve what they get. Their cause is not just.

At some stage the country will have to come out of lockdown for economic reasons but we need some level of control before that happens. I am hearing Singapore eased up too soon and things are getting worse. I don't have TV so can only read the news when our poor internet allows. What we are doing in this country is working and it has largely bipartisan support. It also has considerable support from the Australian people. I get that it is hard but so is dying or losing a family member or having permanent lung damage because of it. What the authorities are trying to achieve will only work if people stop thinking about themselves and start thinking about others who are suffering. The Australian spirit I like to think of is one that stands by its mates when times are tough and lends a hand to those who need it. Where did that go?

[wayno]

try lockdown in nz... unless your job is an essential service to keeping the community running during the lockdown, you can only go to the supermarket or exercise in walking distance of where you live...
you cant even get any prepared food in at all, not even delivered to you, nothing is open. a massive no of business are going to the wall .
we are going from level 4 to level 3 next week and thats only slightly better, theres still a long list of businesses that can't open their premises, you can exercise in your region if its no more than a 40 min drive from where you live but you should still be doing to the closest recreation area not your favourite one, so police won't be happy if they find you are driving past walking tracks to get to one...
you can mix with one other bubble at level 3 if there is someone who cant support themselves or lives alone , other than that , no socialising together...
takeaway food services can only operate if they have an online ordering service

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

Can we do away with selfish shaming in civil discourse around the Coronavirus.

For context, this has been used by our governments historically (and arguably unjustly) to rob people of their freedoms. It was used to abort or adopt out children born out of wedlock (this almost happened to me in the '70s when I was born), steal a whole generation of indigenous children, shame conscientious objectors who refused the draft, push women out of manufacturing jobs back into the kitchen and raising children after world wars, and the list goes on.

It is reactionary colonial patriarchalism.

Cooperation from a population with a strong 'ned kelly' larrakinism streak is not achieved by shaming them and calling them selfish.

It is going to make them civilly disobedient and defiant.

p.s I am not endorsing civil disobedience. I am just pointing out the likely outcome.

I thought I was out of this but feel I have to answer you directly given my views seem to have directly sparked this response. We indeed all share something in common and that is we all have an opinion. You have every right to share yours as do I to not agree with it. I don't see how you equate calling people out for selfish behaviour that endangers the lives of many with what you speak of. Abortion, adoption, stolen generation and so on. Entirely different circumstances. You speak of civil disobedience and then liken Australians to a murder and a thief. Ned Kelly was not a larrakin. Perhaps consider the view of the families of those he killed and robbed. The more civil disobedience we have in this COVID 19 matter, the longer it will take for the rest of us to get out of lockdown. Do you get that? That is selfish and those doing the right thing (IMO) have every right to call it so. Thinking your own desires are more important than the collective good. If you think your own actions will not cause the virus to spread further and everyone else did the same then where would that leave us? Or is it more like there will be enough people doing the right thing (IMO) to make your the selfish actions of a few of little consequence? In other words, people should be allowed their freedom if they believe they are responsible enough to not pick up and spread this virus. I can point out the likely outcome of that also. There are consequences to civil disobedience and in my view those who engage in that behaviour in this matter deserve what they get. Their cause is not just.

At some stage the country will have to come out of lockdown for economic reasons but we need some level of control before that happens. I am hearing Singapore eased up too soon and things are getting worse. I don't have TV so can only read the news when our poor internet allows. What we are doing in this country is working and it has largely bipartisan support. It also has considerable support from the Australian people. I get that it is hard but so is dying or losing a family member or having permanent lung damage because of it. What the authorities are trying to achieve will only work if people stop thinking about themselves and start thinking about others who are suffering. The Australian spirit I like to think of is one that stands by its mates when times are tough and lends a hand to those who need it. Where did that go?

Sums it up pretty well. Now isn't the time for questioning authority... doesn't mean we should be mindless sheep but we should listen to experts (actual experts, not every person with an opinion) and do as they suggest. There are strong parallels with the climate debate here, in that a) it shouldn't be a "debate", it should be a matter of listening to those best qualified, and b) dissenting views are based on opinions and beliefs which have no place in science, and both issues ARE matters of science (acknowledging that both are intertwined with economic impacts and possible solutions). Interesting though that the current government comes down on different sides of the fence between the two issues (and I suspect that's why a lot of climate advocates, including some on this forum, are questioning the distancing measures, ie. it's a matter of political flavour, but that's a generalisation...). Interesting also that newscorp and their shock jock mates call out both issues as codswallop, shows how out of touch they are. For what its worth I'm going crazy not being able to get out for a decent hike, but I'm not special so I'll stick to the rules for as long as they're in place.

[wayno]

the problem is , you can tell people to use their common sense but some won't,, you cant get in or on the water at all in NZ at the moment unless perhaps you have a moored boat you're going to stay in,, no matter how safe your activity,,, because if you say do a safe activity only someones going to stretch the rules and go out in their boat or go surfing or swimming and need rescuing then rescue services have to break their bubble to save you and it diverts first responders when they are already busy...
nz's hospitals are barely touched by covid so at level 3 they are saying you can do you normal activities at a lower level that are safe.... but you cant travel too far to go and do them

[Baeng72]

the problem is , you can tell people to use their common sense but some won't...

I'll defer to Descartes on 'Common Sense':
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have.

[Kuhr]

I thought I was out of this but feel I have to answer you directly given my views seem to have directly sparked this response. We indeed all share something in common and that is we all have an opinion. You have every right to share yours as do I to not agree with it. I don't see how you equate calling people out for selfish behaviour that endangers the lives of many with what you speak of. Abortion, adoption, stolen generation and so on. Entirely different circumstances. You speak of civil disobedience and then liken Australians to a murder and a thief. Ned Kelly was not a larrakin. Perhaps consider the view of the families of those he killed and robbed. The more civil disobedience we have in this COVID 19 matter, the longer it will take for the rest of us to get out of lockdown. Do you get that? That is selfish and those doing the right thing (IMO) have every right to call it so. Thinking your own desires are more important than the collective good. If you think your own actions will not cause the virus to spread further and everyone else did the same then where would that leave us? Or is it more like there will be enough people doing the right thing (IMO) to make your the selfish actions of a few of little consequence? In other words, people should be allowed their freedom if they believe they are responsible enough to not pick up and spread this virus. I can point out the likely outcome of that also. There are consequences to civil disobedience and in my view those who engage in that behaviour in this matter deserve what they get. Their cause is not just.

At some stage the country will have to come out of lockdown for economic reasons but we need some level of control before that happens. I am hearing Singapore eased up too soon and things are getting worse. I don't have TV so can only read the news when our poor internet allows. What we are doing in this country is working and it has largely bipartisan support. It also has considerable support from the Australian people. I get that it is hard but so is dying or losing a family member or having permanent lung damage because of it. What the authorities are trying to achieve will only work if people stop thinking about themselves and start thinking about others who are suffering. The Australian spirit I like to think of is one that stands by its mates when times are tough and lends a hand to those who need it. Where did that go?

I was not referring to whether or not the current quarantine measures are appropriate. And my personal view was not included. I was referring to the language used towards community members on the issue. When anyone chooses to denigrate, shame, demonise and minimise their views (the action) there is for many one likely response - they stop listening to you. This may extend further to defiance and them breaching the quarantine. This is the outcome. Actions have outcomes. They may not be appropriate, desired, or morally sound outcomes, but their inevitability is none the less assured.

The current quarantine measures are a 'one size fits all, but maybe not well' approach which would be expected from multiple levels of government with limited resources and patchy knowledge of the full range of activities their constituency engages in. Most of the debate in the bushwalking community revolves around whether or not the activity can increase the spread of COVID-19. The answer is of course, yes - any activity whatsoever where you may come into contact with others does, however the quoted scenarios that might cause this are easily avoided (do not fuel or enter stores in rural towns) or edge-case scenarios with low probability (rescues, exposure to responders).

I can understand why the government has taken this approach, but as with any authoritarianism style edicts regardless of how appropriate they are, they trigger reflexive resistance in a certain cadre of the population and that is inevitable.

Incidentally I know how hard it is to lose a family member to COVID-19. Last week my estranged brother in law ended his own life. He had been estranged from my sister for three years. His personal security business folded because of COVID-19. On the day before his suicide, his last companion in his home, his guard dog was taken to the VET and put down, because he could no longer afford the treatment to save their life. He succumbed to depression. Mental Health issues, and the cost associated with them are not abstract to me, and just as deadly as COVID-19.

[johnf]

I do note that the people here that have criticised my views have tended to go on the attack with name calling.

I put up a scientific argument in summery being that:
People living in the higher density areas of the city are inadvertently being in close contact with quite a high number people. This is particularly evident in the crowded parks that are the few places that allow exercise. If people were allowed to go bushwalking at further distant national parks, this would be an activity good for the physical and mental well being of the person at the same time reducing the number of close contacts and vastly reducing the number of networked contacts. This would reduce the likely number of people that could be/get infected as the overall reproduction number (R0) would be lower compared to what it would be if people rather than being remote in the bush had stayed in the crowded city.
I further say that if there were to be an infection in a regional area, the contact tracing would be simpler making any outbreak easier to suppress together with less network contacts likely.

It's true I am not an expert myself. But it doesn't mean my argument is not based on science and logic. It would be good to have less of the virtual signalling and more discussion about the flaws in my view that I put forward.
For those that aren't able to look at the substance of what I write and only want to listen to the experts, I refer you to the Professor in today Sydney Morning Herald

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ope ... 54m8f.html

[Baeng72]

I do note that the people here that have criticised my views have tended to go on the attack with name calling.
It's true I am not an expert myself. But it doesn't mean my argument is not based on science and logic. It would be good to have less of the virtual signalling and more discussion about the flaws in my view that I put forward.
For those that aren't able to look at the substance of what I write and only want to listen to the experts, I refer you to the Professor in today Sydney Morning Herald

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ope ... 54m8f.html

Using terms like 'virtue signalling' and 'only want to listen to experts' isn't exactly neutral tone either.
The article has a range of views from experts:
Dr Meru Sheel from ANU's school of population health said if there was clustering in local parks measures should be reassessed but there was a transmission risk with people travelling long distances to areas outside their own.