Light gaiters Vs Australian snakes venom

[sebastien]

The venom of all the Australian snakes is traveling throughout the lymphatic system of its victim.
The lymph is right under the skin.
I understand that Australian snakes are not beating deeply its victim.
That would mean that a light gaiter is as efficient as an heavy one.

What is your opinion about it?
Are light gaiters as efficient as heavy gaiters to prevent snake bites?

[Moondog55]

Read this
All of this
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=295
The answer is
Yes
No
Maybe
Maybe not

[slparker]

You'll need this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-15/s ... te/6018338

[north-north-west]

Finally, a journo who understands the difference between poisonous and venomous.

[Moondog55]

Yes I'd be happy to eat a venomous snake but not a poisonous Cane Toad

[peregrinator]

Moondog: Yes I'd be happy to eat a venomous snake but not a poisonous Cane Toad

I don't think I want either on the menu as all Australian snakes are protected species.

[sebastien]

Read this
All of this
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=295
The answer is
Yes
No
Maybe
Maybe not

Thanks.

I am at the end of page 3. But still nothing about the efficiency of the light gaiters. I will keep going!

I will try to get in contact with some docs or some herpetologists. I would let you know about their answer.

[sebastien]

You'll need this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-15/s ... te/6018338

"According to Australian Museum, king browns, or mulga snakes, bite savagely and may hang on and chew as they inject their venom, which is highly toxic and can be expressed in enormous quantities."

Interesting.

"Chewing" is not in favor of a light gaiter.

But is he telling the truth? We are speaking about someone that kept going because he thought that the snake was dead!!!

[wayno]

what do you define as "light gaiters?"

[Moondog55]

Those whose work puts them in constant contact with aggressive snakes usually use a canvas gaiter; partly because the canvas is stiff and stays away from the leg
Personally I stopped worrying about being bitten by snakes 20+ years ago but a canvas gaiter is still what I would call lightweight when compared to a pair of gumboots which is what most farmers wear

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

Moondog: Yes I'd be happy to eat a venomous snake but not a poisonous Cane Toad

I don't think I want either on the menu as all Australian snakes are protected species.

Mmmm.... protected.....

There are multiple dimensions to this and it's not just a matter of which gaiters are best at stopping envenomation (although I acknowledge that's the OP's question). It's really a risk management issue that depends on where you're going and what you're doing. For me the need for/type of gaiters depends more on the scrubbiness than the risk of treading on a snake, but the two are related so a bit of snake protection is an added bonus. Eg. when off track in areas where you can't always see your feet I'd be wearing thicker, higher gaiters anyway, and on good tracks where the risk of not seeing a snake is much lower (or if walking in NZ ) I'll be wearing lighter/smaller ones or none at all.

On the original question I can't imagine too many gaiters - cordura, canvass or with/without (so-called) waterproof layers - that a snake could penetrate, along with the pants underneath... but I possess absolutely no expertise on the matter and would defer to the herpie... herpo... snake people in the forum.

[slparker]

I agree with moondog and fat boy.

it's a risk assessment, there is absolutely no independent rigorous testing (that I am aware of) on textiles and snakebite envenomation resistance (note I state envenomation resistance-not bite resistance - the two are quite different). Several companies that want to sell you their product claim snakeproofiness; but there is no objective way of assessing whether their product is better than a pair of nylon pants, a pair of standard boots and/or a pair of lightweight gaiters.

It does seem logical that a stiff gaiter that leaves a gap between textile and skin would be better than nothing at all and better than a lightweight gaiter that sticks more closely to the skin. It also seems logical that a bite-proof gaiter would be better - but is it necessary? Do snakes that bite through nylon pants or into lightweight gaiters actually envenomate you? Even if snakeproof gaiters are better than lightweight gaiters why worry? What is the actual risk of being bitten out in the field?

me, Sometimes I wear just shorts but usually wear a lightweight pair of gaiters (with a cordura lower section) for most of my walking and a more robust pair if the vegetation demands it.

I never consider snakebite as a major risk because it is so rare in the field that it hardly seems worth making special accommodation for, apart from the standard first aid measures. To my knowledge and my limited experience of snakes in the wild, but I am not a herpetologist or snake catcher, snakes generally avoid walkers. I have nearly trodden on two snakes sleeping (warming up) on the track. i say nearly because you know what, i saw them first because that's what walkers do - look in front of them. I've seen many snake tails disappearing into the bush but never, ever been chased or attacked by a snake and don't know anyone that has, unless they tried catching, or didn't get out of the way of, an aggressive snake.
But don't take my anecdotal evidence - have a look at the statistics; how many bushwalkers (who are usually prepared with first aid treatment, emergency beacon and a healthy attitude towards leaving potentially lethal wildlife alone) get envenomated and have died? Out of all the people who roam the bush every year? Even german tourists can't seem to get bitten and die on the overland track.


I have treated snakebite in the field and in hospital and none of those patients were bushwalkers. Two were in a camp situation in the army (not actually walking) and one was taunting a dugite.

In a risk assessment (when I was paid to do them) snakebite was low down on the list due to two factors - exposure: rare, consequences: manageable - even in remote areas.

Ask yourself, how many people do you know have been unavoidably bitten by a snake (that is unprovoked) and how many have been involved in a car accident?

I'm not saying don't accommodate the possibility of snakebite just behave in the field as if there are snakes around and don't worry about them.

[lee737]

You'll need this:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-15/s ... te/6018338

This guy apparently catches taipans to eat, yet gets bitten while approaching a seemingly dead king brown..... I wonder if he is still alive?

[lee737]

From what I've read, your chances of being envenomated (on the leg/foot) are reduced quite a lot just by wearing boots/socks/trousers - adding gaiters over the top can't hurt when it comes to further reducing this. Would be a bit like trying to prove a parachute increases your survival chance when jumping from an aircraft at 10000'.....

I only wear gaiters in more remote/scrubby areas - I do insist on long trousers/boots for myself and kids when bushwalking though, any time of year.

As above - news of snake bites tends to make the news, and I can't remember hearing of a bushwalker (careful or not) being bitten in recent times, most reports are farmers and those occupationally exposed.....

Lee

[wayno]

looking at the log book at lake st clair of all the snake sightings, the snakes can't be in a great hurry to bite people at all...
i just about had heart failure reading the log book before my walk, but the walk was an anti climax..

[north-north-west]

looking at the log book at lake st clair of all the snake sightings, the snakes can't be in a great hurry to bite people at all...
i just about had heart failure reading the log book before my walk, but the walk was an anti climax..

Having trodden on two Tiger snakes while walking (that I know of) with no more reaction than the poor things huddling deeper in the scrubbery, I've become a bit blase about the possibility of a bite.
It could happen, but it's way down on the list of things likely to hurt you.

[wayno]

i saw a snake rear up before i ran over it in the car, thought it was a stick till it reared at the last minute, couldnt avoid it.

[ribuck]

i saw a snake rear up before i ran over it in the car, thought it was a stick till it reared at the last minute, couldnt avoid it.

I would have cooked and eaten it, if you had already killed it. Always wanted to taste snake but have never done so.

[north-north-west]

i saw a snake rear up before i ran over it in the car, thought it was a stick till it reared at the last minute, couldnt avoid it.

I would have cooked and eaten it, if you had already killed it. Always wanted to taste snake but have never done so.

A bit like frog - sort of a cross between chicken and rabbit.

[wander]

Having trodden on more snakes than I can remember over 20 years of wandering, done the mexican hat dance over a few and walked close by an lot of snakes in Tas, SA and Vic and never been bitten or even suspected of being bitten I would have to say my field testing is you would have to be very unlucky to actually be bitten.

Your 1st line of defense is to keep your eyes open, be alert and stop and move away carefully when you come across a snake. Do not approach and do not do anything to provoke a snake.

Snakes have very poor distance eyesight, it is optimised for their striking distance. If you can see the snake they will know you are about via noise and smell and they will be able to make out there is a large shape moving about. So move carefully away and they will mostly relax back to their nap or whatever they were doing.

When a snake strikes it is often multiple times in my experience. And I have witnessed the chewing action noted in a post above with snakes being killed in suburban gardens by a shovel, the snakes rarely let go if the shovel once they get a bite on it.

All that said I wear canvas gaiters whenever in snake or possible snake country. I would not wear anything less. In real snake pits (swampy frog infested flood plains and the like) I also wear long pants tucked into the top of the gaiters so in the ankle area there are 3 layers, socks, pants then gaiters for a snake to get through.

So in answer to your question with care you should be able to get away with lightweight gaiters (I assume these are like orienteering gaiters?) but I would do it myself.

[wobbly]

Don't take this the wrong way but personally if you are concerned about snake bite just go with the heavier duty ones just for the peace of mind. Ask yourself if you'd be more nervous/cautious wearing the thinner gaitors. I use Sea to Summit Quagmires and whilst i know snakes are not the concern many people make out, wearing them does make me feel less on edge in snakey areas- either that or I've just got more relaxed with experience. Besides they protect the legs from scratches, mud and leeches (okay the leech bit rarely works).

[stry]

It's the topic(s) that just wont die isn't it ? Snakes and gaiters.

I don't think they are cuddly creatures, and like most of us, I've had a few frights, but this paranoia is simply baseless.

I also continue to be amused at the faith evident in all these threads that snakes will courteously strike below your knee. Thigh makes a good target. I've seen plenty up off the ground getting a bit of warmth. Bending over carelessly, picking stuff up, or climbing up warm rocky surfaces makes face and hands good targets.

If someone has real concern, buy the purpose built ones if that will provide some peace of mind, otherwise simply follow the oft repeated suggestions about being careful, which one should do even if wearing whizz bang gaiters.

[wayno]

perhaps you should be more concerned about snake bite outside of australia than in it
https://theconversation.com/are-austral ... lose-50963

[Hiking Noob]

I think I'd end up paranoid if I wore light weight gaiters, I'd be taking them off every time I felt a stick or something jab me just to check.

I'm heavy, I make quite a thud when I walk but I have come close to stepping on a couple of Redbacks but I don't bother with gaiters. I am not a hiker but do spend quite a bit of time working on and cutting in bike trails so I'm often on my own in grassy areas but I see almost as many snakes at home as in the bush, we had a small Mash snake or similar living under the house last year.

[roopass]

It's the topic(s) that just wont die isn't it ? Snakes and gaiters.

I don't think they are cuddly creatures, and like most of us, I've had a few frights, but this paranoia is simply baseless.

I also continue to be amused at the faith evident in all these threads that snakes will courteously strike below your knee. Thigh makes a good target. I've seen plenty up off the ground getting a bit of warmth. Bending over carelessly, picking stuff up, or climbing up warm rocky surfaces makes face and hands good targets.

If someone has real concern, buy the purpose built ones if that will provide some peace of mind, otherwise simply follow the oft repeated suggestions about being careful, which one should do even if wearing whizz bang gaiters.

[tom_brennan]

I don't usually bother wearing gaiters at all. Mostly walking off track in the Blue Mountains. I may wear long pants if it's really scrubby, but mostly just shorts.

I wear gaiters in Northern Australia, but more to prevent grass seeds and the like from getting in my socks.

So I'd suggest you wear whatever makes you most comfortable … if that's heavy gaiters and long pants because you're concerned about snakes, then fine.

[Lophophaps]

I've always worn full length canvas or similar gaiters. These provide protection against scrub, dirt, small rocks and snakes. The gaiters are old, and have been repaired with canvas and ballistic fabric, used in what most people incorrectly call bullet-proof vests. The correct term is ballistic vests. I've trodden on a few snakes, and came very close to being bitten a few times. My martial arts training includes running away, and I'm very good at that.

[sebastien]

what do you define as "light gaiters?"

To wayno: Made with light material.

Those whose work puts them in constant contact with aggressive snakes usually use a canvas gaiter; partly because the canvas is stiff and stays away from the leg

To Moondog: It is true that canvas gaiters will stay away from the leg. Lighter gaiter will stay closer of the trouser / leg.

On the original question I can't imagine too many gaiters - cordura, canvass or with/without (so-called) waterproof layers - that a snake could penetrate, along with the pants underneath... but I possess absolutely no expertise on the matter and would defer to the herpie... herpo... snake people in the forum.

To Walk fatboy walk : I asked the question by email to an herpetologist this morning. Wait and see!

it's a risk assessment, there is absolutely no independent rigorous testing (that I am aware of) on textiles and snakebite envenomation resistance (note I state envenomation resistance-not bite resistance - the two are quite different). Several companies that want to sell you their product claim snakeproofiness; but there is no objective way of assessing whether their product is better than a pair of nylon pants, a pair of standard boots and/or a pair of lightweight gaiters.

It does seem logical that a stiff gaiter that leaves a gap between textile and skin would be better than nothing at all and better than a lightweight gaiter that sticks more closely to the skin. It also seems logical that a bite-proof gaiter would be better - but is it necessary? Do snakes that bite through nylon pants or into lightweight gaiters actually envenomate you? Even if snakeproof gaiters are better than lightweight gaiters why worry? What is the actual risk of being bitten out in the field?
.

To slparker:
Yes, this is the heart of the question " envenomation resistance ". The right title of this topic should be: Australian snakes Vs light gaiters ( envenomation resistance )
Yes, gaiters companies do not communicate much on the snake bite question.

Having trodden on two Tiger snakes while walking (that I know of) with no more reaction than the poor things huddling deeper in the scrubbery, I've become a bit blase about the possibility of a bite.
It could happen, but it's way down on the list of things likely to hurt you.

To north north west:"The possibility of a bite " is not the question asked on this topic.




Thanks to all of you who tried to answer the topic question.

[Mark F]

It seems to me that the op needs to work out the issues with a bit more thought. Unless you come across a species spitting cobra (Naja genus etc) where the issue is whether it hits you in the eye (venom ejected onto the skin has no effect), you are discussing whether, when biting, the snake chooses to envenomate the bitee and the structure of the snake's fangs that allows it to achieve the envenomation. There are several factors to consider here:
The species of the snake - how close to the end of the fangs is the venom injection point and bite strength.
Does the snake want to inject venom - hunting or defensive reaction.
Has the snake any venom to inject - has it used up its venom on a recent meal.
Does any fabric (gaiters, pants ?) keep the injection points (not the end of the fangs) from entering the bitee and allow venom to be injected.
... (the list is extensive)

My personal view (on a risk management basis) is that gaiters are really unnecessary to protect against snake bite given the frequency of bites but long pants will limit the the risk of envenomation to a very low level.

[slparker]

It seems to me that the op needs to work out the issues with a bit more thought. Unless you come across a species spitting cobra (Naja genus etc) where the issue is whether it hits you in the eye (venom ejected onto the skin has no effect), you are discussing whether, when biting, the snake chooses to envenomate the bitee and the structure of the snake's fangs that allows it to achieve the envenomation. There are several factors to consider here:
The species of the snake - how close to the end of the fangs is the venom injection point and bite strength.
Does the snake want to inject venom - hunting or defensive reaction.
Has the snake any venom to inject - has it used up its venom on a recent meal.
Does any fabric (gaiters, pants ?) keep the injection points (not the end of the fangs) from entering the bitee and allow venom to be injected.
... (the list is extensive)

My personal view (on a risk management basis) is that gaiters are really unnecessary to protect against snake bite given the frequency of bites but long pants will limit the the risk of envenomation to a very low level.

around 50% of defensive bites are dry bites, but I don't know whether those stats extend across all species.