Forbidden peaks

[AlanShortyD]

Title is a bit dramatic sorry.


A list of mountains with access either restricted, actively discouraged, or ambiguously discouraged:

Aboriginal significance:
Mt Yengo (NSW)
Mt Warning (NSW)
St Marys Peak (SA)
Uluru (NT)
Mt Woodroffe (SA)

Conservation:
Mt Manypeaks (WA)
A few closed in the Stirlings (dieback)

Safety:
Mt Coonowrin (QLD)

Is that it? Any others?

[AlanShortyD]

Safety:
Mt Lidgbird (NSW)

[DaveNoble]

There are a huge number in NSW that are either in catchment areas or army training areas that are no go.

Dave

[photohiker]

Or fenced and access public or privately restricted:

Mt Bonython (SA)

[overlandnoob]

Safety:
Mt Lidgbird (NSW)

Mt Gower also without one of the two official guides. (Both mountains on Lord Howe Island).

[north-north-west]

There are far too many in Tassie either on or entirely surrounded by private property. Not generally very flash peaks but they're on the list so it is rather annoying.

[maddog]

I must admit (in the context of bushwalking) I have never let another’s religion limit my activity and I fail to understand why it should. Jews and Muslims do not eat pig. Hindu’s don’t kill cows. Good for them. But such superstition doesn’t apply to a Christian or Atheist, so they indulge. And why shouldn't they? The Japanese anger some by eating whale and dolphin - but offending the sensibilities of hypocrites is of little concern to them. Different cultures, different rules, but one culture or religion has no right to demand adherence from another.

Anyway, for those interested, in NSW you could conduct an AHIMS search or look at the NSW Atlas of Aboriginal Places.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[jford]

Mt Kailash in Tibet, along with any number of other peaks in Nepal, is off limits. There are some mountains people have climbed to within a metre or two of the summit and then come down out of respect for the religious beliefs of others. As for not respecting other people's religious sensibilities, if you're a guest in their country or on their land, you should behave as a guest, not an oaf.

[horsecat]

As for not respecting other people's religious sensibilities, if you're a guest in their country or on their land, you should behave as a guest, not an oaf.

Quite right. Kanchenjunga (worlds third highest peak) is a good example where all climbers stop a few metres below the summit as the locals believe it is the realm of the gods. If climbers disobey this request the mountain could be closed to all future expeditions. The other notable in Nepal being Machhapuchchhre which has only had one ascent (which stopped below the top) and has been closed ever since. The highest unclimbed mountain in the world, Gangkhar Puensum (7,570m) in Bhutan, is closed for mostly religious reasons. In fact I think Bhutan has not allowed any climbing in the country for over a decade now, just some very expensive trekking

[slparker]

I must admit (in the context of bushwalking) I have never let another’s religion limit my activity and I fail to understand why it should.

So, there are bogan bushwalkers.

[jford]

... could be closed to all future expeditions.

This being another major reason for respecting the sensibilities of others whilst walking, and not being a bogan. Definition of a bogan is perhaps someone who doesn't give a sh*t about what happens to the next party coming along the track.

[walk2wineries]

There are far too many in Tassie either on or entirely surrounded by private property. Not generally very flash peaks but they're on the list so it is rather annoying.

That may be true although Tassie still has more per square km than anywhere else in Oz! I think its only fair however to mention walks which are on private property which are maintained and freely available - donations optional. The Mount Misery Track http://www.huonbushretreats.com/bushwalks-onsite/ and particularly the Bridal Veil falls walks at http://www.lemonthyme.com.au/ - lovely walks and well maintained.

[maddog]

Definition of a bogan is perhaps someone who doesn't give a sh*t about what happens to the next party coming along the track.

G’day jford,

That is a poor definition of a Bogan.

The Bogan may be a foul-mouthed tough, but also an admirably hard worker, a larrikin and a bushman - by all accounts not such a bad fella when sober. Whether you like it or not, here is nothing so Australian as a Bogan in the bush.

And as part of our heritage, he has every right to be there.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[stry]

Somewhat contrarian description of a bogan maddog.

No surprise there

[slparker]

Did I write bogan? Perhaps ignoramus was closer to the mark. waving away boorish behaviour as 'larrikinism' doesn't wash.

religious and cultural intolerance is so last century, it went out with the cronulla riot, sorry - the cronulla larrikinism display.

[jford]

I think the definition of bogan is heavily dependant on whether self-identification is going on or not. I think there's a fair amount of the Australian bush myth in your definition, maddog. Anyway, the underlying issue is that respect for others is vital in the bush, including respect for religious and cultural beliefs.

[ben.h]

There are far too many in Tassie either on or entirely surrounded by private property. Not generally very flash peaks but they're on the list so it is rather annoying.

Yep. Here's one off the top of my head (I've tried a couple of times to get up there with no success):
Mount Faulkner, Molesworth (TAS).

Not just peaks though, there are many areas of otherwise public land (whatever the definition, state, crown, whatever) that are entirely surrounded by private property. Another common problem is when residents of rural roads decide to put up their own "Private Road" signs on what turn out to be public roads (Old Farm Road in South Hobart used to be a classic example of this).

[maddog]

G’day slparker,

An ignoramus would be, by definition, unaware of the imposition of religious restrictions placed on an area by the superstitious. What I am suggesting is quite different – that those unencumbered by a belief in an imaginary friend, and the like, should not feel burdened by those whom chose to hold such beliefs. While I am not condoning vandalism and the like, I am suggesting that those living with superstition should feel no right to impose their rules on others – particularly in regards to such low impact activities as bushwalking. Quite a simple, reasonable and progressive stance I would have thought.

In regards to the larrikin and bogan. They have never met with the approval of the self-appointed cultural elite nor felt troubled to conform to its etiquette. While often disenfranchised by the power of institutions bestowed upon the elite, they have always had one thing on their side – the unstoppable weight of sheer numbers. Do you really predict a diminished display of ‘aussie pride’ at the Royal this year?

Jford,

The description I gave relies heavily on Lawson’s ‘One-eyed Bogan Bill’.

Ben.h,

In my experience such signs are often placed on infrequently used but gazetted roads to deceive recreational shooters, trail bike riders and four-wheel drive enthusiasts. In most cases they are unlikely to have any legal authority.

Behind the small town of Urbenville in northern NSW, there is a rock named ‘The Crown’, which is surrounded by private land (though a gazetted road does run through the middle of it). The landowner enthusiastically grants access, albeit with the requirement of a bit of a chat with an interested, though somewhat bemused, country gent and the usual reminder to leave gates as you find them. Funnily enough, access to the Crown is easier than to nearby rocks surrounded by public land (such as the Edinburgh Castle and the Bee Hive), as locked gates across fire trails and closed roads limit vehicular access to these, necessitating a boring walk through nondescript scrub before the climb can begin.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[ben.h]

Although it is only a bit of urban bush, I'd add Tinderbox Hills (TAS) to the list. Once upon a time there was a public track from one end to the other. At some point, the southern end of the track was closed (private property... no idea if it was always private or not), then a few years ago, the highest point on the track, less than half way along was signposted "Private property, no entry, whatever..." signed by the Town Clerk, Kingborough Council along with surveyors posts marking the border.

Tinderbox Hills used to be a fantastic walking and MTB track (still was, at least a couple of years ago if you ignored the signs) with amazing views from the top.

[Pika]

G’day slparker,

An ignoramus would be, by definition, unaware of the imposition of religious restrictions placed on an area by the superstitious. What I am suggesting is quite different – that those unencumbered by a belief in an imaginary friend, and the like, should not feel burdened by those whom chose to hold such beliefs. While I am not condoning vandalism and the like, I am suggesting that those living with superstition should feel no right to impose their rules on others – particularly in regards to such low impact activities as bushwalking. Quite a simple, reasonable and progressive stance I would have thought.

Well said maddog.

[ben.h]

G’day slparker,

An ignoramus would be, by definition, unaware of the imposition of religious restrictions placed on an area by the superstitious. What I am suggesting is quite different – that those unencumbered by a belief in an imaginary friend, and the like, should not feel burdened by those whom chose to hold such beliefs. While I am not condoning vandalism and the like, I am suggesting that those living with superstition should feel no right to impose their rules on others – particularly in regards to such low impact activities as bushwalking. Quite a simple, reasonable and progressive stance I would have thought.

Well said maddog.

Hear, hear!
It never ceases to amaze me the intolerance, bigotry and prejudice afforded by religion. One day, in the future humanity will look back and say "What a funny period in our history that was. People believed in fairy tales and miracles despite the evidence to the contrary. They used dogma to justify the oppression of others without any factual basis upon which to justify that dogma, plus many other ridiculous things. What a funny period in our history that was."

One day, we will look back on religion just as we do on things such as flat earth, eugenics and the like. That's the world I want to live in.

[horsecat]

For me it isn't about if I believe in these things or not (which incidentally, I don't), I just want to keep on the good side of the locals so I can climb their peaks and not ruin it for anyone else who might want to do the same in the future

[slparker]

G’day slparker,

Quite a simple, reasonable and progressive stance I would have thought.

Well, you're wrong, as it happens. it is neither reasonable nor progressive by any measure. Insular, smug, parochial, disrespectful and intolerant is closer to the mark. The atheistic stance does not naturally advocate disrespect of others' culture or religion and to think so merely shows arrogance at worst, ignorance or childishness at best.

[maddog]

G’day Slparker,

I assure you I am quite willing to tolerate others having different views from mine and modifying their own activities accordingly. And while I have little doubt we would be better off without religion, liberty allows us to adopt whatever religious belief or opinion we chose, and to practice it, provided such freedom in no way interferes with the same by others.

And that is the thing. Believe in the celestial teapot or flying spaghetti monster, and all that may entail, if you like. I really couldn’t care less. But it is best to refrain from pressing such belief on others, and unreasonable to demand observance with the commands of a fantasy world from those not so burdened.

If it is legal and I please I will do it. I neither need nor seek your approval.

To add to the list, apparently climbing Mt Barney is taboo for some kinship groups under aboriginal mythology. According to the Qld NPWS

Mount Barney National Park has special significance to Aboriginal kinship groups who have legends and stories to explain their connection with the mountains. For many it is taboo (forbidden) to climb Mount Barney. One story tells of an ill-fated plot by a jealous uncle to murder his nephew because it was the nephew, not the uncle, who was to inherit the role of head tribesman. Outwitted by his nephew, it is the uncle that is murdered. Upon discovering the true story of the uncle's intentions and death, the elders placed a curse on the mountain so no further murders could occur. This forbade all kinship groups from climbing the mountain. Today the mountain is still respected by these kinship groups—always from a distance and never climbed.


Read more: Mt Barney's Legend by Arthur Groom.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[slparker]

Hi Maddog,
You conflate the cultural and religious sensitivities of others with evangelism. Respecting others' culture does not necessitate acceding to their beliefs, nor is it a covert acceptance of the 'flying spaghetti monster'.

I do not require you to accede to my approval, nor anyone else's - just pointing out your arrogance.

[horsecat]

When abroad I find it easier and a much more satisfying to learn about and respect the beliefs of the local people. Why not? You'll have a much more fulfilling experience and find the locals more friendly and willing to show you some things that others may not see. I've been welcomed into remote villagers homes in some pretty far out places as a result and these are some of my most unique and memorable times. I have never met a Himalayan climber that doesn't participate in the Puja ceremony before setting foot on the mountain. They all respect the various other customs and understand the importance of these beliefs to the people who have lived there for generations. Whether they be Buddhist, Hindi or Islam I have enjoyed seeing how they go about their religion and what it means to them, in turn they show immense curiosity about us and our way of life, particularly the people who have never seen a car, plane or even a ball. It is part of travelling. Then there are the ignorant (mostly once-in-a-lifetime-trekkers) knobs who just go about things with complete disregard. This attitude doesn't go unnoticed to the local people and gives others a bad name. I'm mean, I've literally seen people pee on graves and memorials - even saw a bloke do that on the side of a nomads clay home in Kyrgyzstan

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

...You conflate the cultural and religious sensitivities of others with evangelism...

Exactly. I'm not remotely religious but accept that religious and cultural observances can't (in many cultures) be decoupled from one another, to the extent that to pay lip service to religious taboos is to be culturally insensitive. For that reason I'd never contemplate, for example, climbing Mt Kailash (even if it were within my means). I guess it comes down to the predominant culture of a given area as to whether I'd consider whether or not to observe any particular taboo... for example if someone all of a sudden cropped up and said that it were offensive for me to stand on the summit of Kuyani/Mt Wellington because of some religious belief not predominant in Tasmania/Australia (eg. Hindu, Muslim, Buddhism etc), I'd likely take Maddog's line and tell them to sod off. But if the mountain in question was in a country where that religion is tightly embedded in the culture, I'd think completely differently as to do otherwise would be thumbing one's nose at the local culture (just as I wouldn't climb Uluru in deference to indigenous spiritual beliefs, even if it is in my home country). It's really got nothing to do with religious acceptance or having someone's belief rammed down my throat (which I'm equally against FWIW)... It's just basic respect.

BTW if anything is being conflated in this thread it's Australianism (including larrikinism) and boganism. They can be mutually exclusive - the latter is all about attitude and not giving a rat's about the impact of their actions on others, and isn't something to be "proud" of. There is nothing wrong with being ockerish, but (depending on one's definition) there is certainly something wrong with being a bogan.

[maddog]

The Nimbin Rocks and the Glasshouse Mountains can be added to the list.

Quite a fuss at the Glasshouse Mountains. Read more:

Woman's naked mountain climb

Naked climber in danger says elder

Jess.jpg (35.06 KiB) Viewed 19909 times

Cheers,

Maddog.

[Pika]

G’day slparker,

Quite a simple, reasonable and progressive stance I would have thought.

Well, you're wrong, as it happens. it is neither reasonable nor progressive by any measure. Insular, smug, parochial, disrespectful and intolerant is closer to the mark. The atheistic stance does not naturally advocate disrespect of others' culture or religion and to think so merely shows arrogance at worst, ignorance or childishness at best.

Just to clarify, if maddog or anyone else was to declare, lets say The Alpine National Park, as religiously significant to lets say, The Extraordinary League of Leprechauns of Christ, you would respect his wishes not to ascend this monument to his religion at the risk of being labelled insular, smug, parochial, disrespectful and intolerant?

Because one mans religion is another mans blasphemy and in the name of all that is equality all religions, or non religions, deserve tolerance and respect regardless of whether you or any other group believes them to be true.

In fact, I am of a mind to take New England National Park for myself and the belief of my religion. Be sure to respect my religion lest you be labelled insular, smug etc etc

I have no problem with anyone believing whatever it is they wish to believe. While ever their beliefs are not imposed on me, they are free to do what they want.

Though I hear what maddog is doing to Leprechauns on Mt Bogong these days is highly suspicious.

[slparker]

The Nimbin Rocks and the Glasshouse Mountains can be added to the list.

Quite a fuss at the Glasshouse Mountains. Read more:

Woman's naked mountain climb

Naked climber in danger says elder



Cheers,

Maddog.

What's the point of your post? if it's trying to wind us up...it isn't. It's just infantile. If you can't argue your position than cherry picking some examples of toolbags annoying aboriginals won't help.