Safe training weight

[Gadgetgeek]

Just got done my first expedition as an instructor, and it all went pretty well. I did notice however that I do need to really bring my fitness level up. I ended up with a total weight running in the 24kg total range over some pretty rough hot terrain. My pack weight was pretty enforced, and from the looks of things I won't really be able to drop much weight in future trips.

So as I continue to train, I'm very conscious that heavy packs lead to knee problems, So what sort of things should I be looking at as far as training? should I do heavy short walks, lighter longer walks? Since I will probably be doing trips like this every month or so, it needs to be a sustainable training program. I'm in pretty good health, its just that the heat and the slow pace flogged me out. (I'm sure the boots didn't help) but really 25kg 9ish Km and 6.5 hours shouldn't have done what it did to me, even considering the high heat and the rugged terrain. By the end I was getting pretty bad cramps in my legs, I just had to keep them moving to keep from locking up. That might have been some electrolyte imbalance, and maybe a bit of hydration shortage, but not very much if at all. I've done that same track in 2.5hrs with a light pack (6-7kg) and didn't feel too bad after.

I just want to be sure that any training I am doing is not just going to grind my knees apart. I'm lucky that they work well, I'd like to keep them that way.

[GPSGuided]

Is there any way you can drop the pack weight? Regular 25kg carriage is not healthy. Being placed on your back and hips, your feet/ankles/knees, hips and spine will all be affected. Otherwise I'd say you need good core strength, good aerobics and strong muscular leg strength.

[photohiker]

total weight running in the 24kg total range over some pretty rough hot terrain. My pack weight was pretty enforced, and from the looks of things I won't really be able to drop much weight in future trips.

You really should let us know your approximate age and weight.

But I'm with GPSG. If the organisation you're with is forcing a 24kg pack weight on you and you want to keep your joints in good shape, look someplace else. If you are a big healthy fit person you might get away with it for a while but it will catch up on you.

[vicrev]

24 ks,phew.... instructor or packhorse training ??... ........

[DarrenM]

What kind of expeditions and instructing who? It's a very subjective topic. For decades I've carried similar weight regularly and have never had any problems......yet. I'm only 40 though and do a range of different things from MTB, trail running and a fair amount of bushwalking.

Are you instructing people how to hike with loads?

[Bubbalouie]

If you treat it as a risk/benefit thing carrying 24kg regularly seems like a poor proposition.

The benefit is that you get to go hiking. The risk is that you may do a lot less hiking overall as your joints are ruined.

24kg makes sense in extreme environments (extreme cold or carrying several days of water) but for the rest seems a bit much. I'm not an ultralight hiker and that'd do me for 16 days (including 3L water and occasional -5 temps).

As many people have asked, why do they require so much weight to be carried?

To your original question though, the answer is to build up to a weight by regularly carrying a smaller load that you gradually increase. It will take a lot of time for your bones, tendons and joints to adapt to a certain load (at least to the extent that they can) compared to your muscles. So take your time and slowly build up to 24kg with regular training. If you jump in without enough training all of your stabilisers will be too weak (and possibly even other "primary" muscles) and leave you open to some pretty nasty injuries if you go for a spill.

I fell into a trench during a storm with a 22kg pack several years ago (was still learning), I'd not done any training above 15kg and wrenched my knee pretty badly, my knee still plays up on multi day hikes, I believe I got off lightly.

[Gadgetgeek]

I'm 70kg, 1.77 tall, so pretty close to a bean pole.

As for weight, My personal pack weight and gear are down around the 16kg mark dry, but then once I add food for myself, potentially the teacher (gotta keep them happy) Large first aid kit, paperwork, radio and water it adds up. I'm fortunate in that my hammock is fairly light (compared to most tents) and that the fly can be used as a shelter, which means I don't need to carry one of those as well.
Unfortunately where I am doing these trips water is tough to come by, so its dropped out by the logistics team, but that means going drop to drop. In the last case that included having two kids that could only carry a couple liters (although as a group they had a 10L bag that was shared) For me I was starting with 4-5L. The water is the major factor in the weight, but there isn't much that can be done about that. The only optional kit I took with me was my stove(microrocket, snowpeak 900 set), and that was worth it so the teacher could make coffee. I've been looking into ways to shave some grams on the weight, but its not easy. I could get a lighter pack, but first I need a tent for times I'm limited to the ground.

As for the pack-mule thing, Its true, its generally accepted from everyone I've talked too that we are going to carry a lot of stuff. Even the guys who go really light on their own gear end up near the 25kg mark due to other equipment that needs to be carried. On my last training trip the instructor carried a radio, sat-phone and Spot, as per his organizations SOPs. And since our gear needs to be 100% it usually means more waterproofing than you would normally do. (there were two canoe sessions, so I double bagged everything) One of the other guys ended up with an extra 2kg of food due to a dietary requirement of his teacher.

I think from the sounds of it, I need to get into a routine of walking with a lighter (15-17kg) pack pretty often, and up that over time. I think that is reasonable. I've got a park close by that a couple laps covers 6-7km, and has a couple reasonable hills. I've done that as a training run a few times now, with the weight, but I think doing it light will be better for me. Also it should help me acclimate to the heat. I won't be walking today though not with a 40 predicted.

Any other advice is appreciated, any ideas on where I might be able to shave some more weight? I've already shortened my toothbrush.

[Bubbalouie]

Have you got a breakdown of your gear?

What additional kit do you need to carry?

Also, you might want to offer info about the destination as that has a pretty substantial impact on gear choice.

(no doubt a few people here will be able to offer some help or advice)

[DarrenM]

I agree with some of the points made by Bubbalouie. It's all about conditioning yourself for the job at hand. 24kgs is not that heavy if you are 80kgs of muscle and have been keeping fit. If you are only doing it once a month.....I'd say do it 2 or three times a month and also add some other forms of load bearing activities into the mix.

I don't agree with people saying it's too heavy....more likely its lack of conditioning for the task. If age and prior knee problems are causing problems then that is a whole different matter but also think that more training to build around any weakness will definitely help.

These things don't happen overnight either and it's as much about getting the mental game right also. Training hurts and having the staying power to continue training when you don't feel like it is the biggest factor in succeeding. I'm a firm believer in the theory of.....the best traing for carrying heavy loads is to carry heavy loads.

Your body will adapt to carrying heavier weight over time, and if you only carry lighter loads as a form of training then it simply won't adapt. It's basic weight training in theory.....lower reps, heavier weight.

Definitley ease into it and look for cross training opportunities like Mountain biking, sand hills, light weight training etc.

Good luck with it and maybe find a friend that is interested in training if you aren't into training alone.

[Eljimberino]

Standing around with that weight doesn't sound like fun. You get sore feet standing around in a art gallery. Perhaps take a note of the duration your leader/teacher stops regularly on each walk. Maybe note where the participants normally stop for longer than 5-10 mins. Then discretely take your pack off, but find something useful that disguises why your pack is off, and stretch. You don't want the whole group thinking they can take their packs off.

Cycling greatly strengths your hamstrings, but shortens them.


Ride On

[GPSGuided]

Your body will adapt to carrying heavier weight over time, and if you only carry lighter loads as a form of training then it simply won't adapt. It's basic weight training in theory.....lower reps, heavier weight.

What the weight training focuses on are the muscles and ligaments and bone strengthening. What's unspoken is the additional wear on the cartilages, intervertebral discs and general strains. These tissues don't regenerate and we each only have one set. With accelerated wear, the impact is years down the track, typically missed by those who focus on the shorter time frame. No, cartilages and discs will perform "better" with training. They will just get used up.

[photohiker]

I'm 72kg, 187cm. I routinely carry 10-15kg on my trips. I have carried up to 20kg but that takes the enjoyment out of the trip for me, and I know it accelerates the wear on my joints, I avoid it by moving into lightweight gear and I'm never going back.

I think the rule of thumb is to carry no more than 33% of your body weight if you are very fit, that would be 23.3kg. If you are not at peak fitness, then limit weight to 25%, 17.5kg. Above 33% you are going to do damage. Post up your pack list and lets see what the forum can suggest.

What is this 'carrying stuff for the teacher' business? The teacher should be setting an example and not overloading their students so they can lose pack weight. You shouldn't have to sweeten up the teacher by carrying stuff for them, if anything the teacher should be carrying stuff for the students until they are up to carrying capacity.

[Gadgetgeek]

I'm 29 and while I have no major sports injuries, I do have short hamstrings from riding ATVs and dirtbikes as a kid.
The general area I'm going to be working in is south east queensland, so right now, hot/dry and hills.

As for how the teacher/students/myself work. I'm there as the instructor for the activities and general guide for the group. The teacher may or may not have any outdoor experience and at the end of the day has more say about my performance than the kids. So if they have a good time, whoever I'm working for looks better. The kids carry what they want, none of them listen to much pack advice, so I do my best with what I'm given, they get told that if they bring it in, it comes back with them, so they can ask for advice if they want. Many don't bother. Its a learning experience for them. Most of the time they only have to hike a Km or two at a time, but during the "bushwalk" activity they get pushed pretty hard. On the other hand they get a lot of forgiveness in that they don't carry the trangia stoves and pots, just a couple bottles of fuel for the group, and the food can easily be divided according to fitness. I'm wanting to be in a position where I have surplus energy so that I can better manage the group if needed. Nothing worse than having a problem and being too tired to deal with it properly. Like the sort of thing where I had to walk a kid back up a very steep hill after he twisted his ankle so he could be picked up. Then back down to my gear, and then on to the rest of the group.

As far as resting, that is partly up to myself. Its my job to make sure I'm pushing everyone, but not too far. These are not generally "fun" hikes but part of leadership or other goal based events.

Just to clarify, I'd probably be doing one of these "work" hikes a month. So I'm thinking a light training walk a couple times a week, and probably a heavy walk every other week (opposite the work) I wouldn't want to carry that much on a personal hike, but it comes down to training for the worst and hoping for the best I guess. I was able to handle the heavier load, and had I been able to set the pace, I wouldn't have been walking so long. Does a short/heavy training schedule help with overall muscle endurance, or would longer-lighter work better. Cardio is less a problem than muscle fatigue for me.

I'll do a full gear breakdown a bit later, but I don't think there is much for me to pull at this point. and regardless its sort of an expectation, so I figure I might as well get used to it. I just want to do it safely.

[DarrenM]

Your body will adapt to carrying heavier weight over time, and if you only carry lighter loads as a form of training then it simply won't adapt. It's basic weight training in theory.....lower reps, heavier weight.

What the weight training focuses on are the muscles and ligaments and bone strengthening. What's unspoken is the additional wear on the cartilages, intervertebral discs and general strains. These tissues don't regenerate and we each only have one set. With accelerated wear, the impact is years down the track, typically missed by those who focus on the shorter time frame. No, cartilages and discs will perform "better" with training. They will just get used up.

I understand this, but if you train occasionally with lighter packs and expect a different outcome in a short time frame then it's a no brainer. No adaption.

Strengthening muscle, ligaments bone etc, will help take some of the strain of the degeneration of cartilage. You simply can't win the battle by saying don't train to carry heavy loads if you are going to carry the heavy load anyway. That would IMO definitely cause the problems we are talking about.

If you are lightweight and want to play football, the coach doesn't put you on a diet and keep you out of the gym. He'll get you on the protein and get you to lift heavy.

Doing it carefully and safely is the key and maybe with the advice of a Personal trainer. The only way I have managed to carry big loads is consistency in doing exactly that. If I have a long layoff due to injury (and I've had many) the first few months back, I cant just pickup a heavy pack and grind up hills. It's a logical process of building up to heavy carries.

Don't rush and listen to the body.

[GPSGuided]

Strengthening muscle, ligaments bone etc, will help take some of the strain of the degeneration of cartilage. You simply can't win the battle by saying don't train to carry heavy loads if you are going to carry the heavy load anyway. That would IMO definitely cause the problems we are talking about.
...
Don't rush and listen to the body.

Not saying that one need not train. If one has to take that kind of weight, then one has to take that weight and enter it knowingly. Fact is, no amount of muscle/ligament/bone strengthening can take the strain on the cartilages and discs. They bear the weight, the shocks and the wear based according to the weight. No two ways out of it. Listen to the body? Unfortunately and unlike the muscles, ligaments and tendons or even bones, catilage/discs don't "talk" until they are well worn or severely damaged, and often years down the track ie. Too late.

[DarrenM]

So you have a choice.

I'd be training to cope. Your body is a state of decline no matter what you do. Nobody is debating the fact that cartilage is going to be less effective over time.

The OP wants to train to cope with the added weight, so up the body's response by training accordingly. As I said earlier, cross train but you need to simulate what you are actually training for.

If you want to run a marathon then you build up to the required distance by....."running". It's stating the obvious that at some point the body will suffer. Again it's a choice.

[Gadgetgeek]

Is there a way to train for endurance without carrying a damaging level of weight? or is it a matter of me doing a bunch of N=1 (which is likely anyway since my body doesn't seem to follow all of the rules)
At the end of the day, I'm doing far less damage to my body than I was with my old job (no more back pain) so I'm a happy boy either way. As I get better at this, I'm sure that several factors will come into play as far as reducing the effort needed.

[slparker]

It sounds like your problem was heat exhaustion, not difficulty carrying a load for hours. Whilst the heat exhaustion may be a partial consequence of the load, the heat and terrain are likely to be significant co-contributors.

it also sounds like the only thing that you can change is your physiological response to the exercise as the rest of the variables are set (unless you can get the walk over in the early morning-lunchtime). An exercise program to acclimatise yourself to the conditions sounds like the best bet - as well as strategies to maximise electrolyte and water balance.

You ask; 'Is there a way to train for endurance without carrying a damaging level of weight?' Yep - anything will do it: running, cycling (up hills is excellent training) and walking. You need to do it for extensive enough periods in the conditions that you will be walking in. Eating and drinking sufficiently for the conditions is also something you will need to learn if exercising in extreme heat and humidity, in my opinion.

[GPSGuided]

You ask; 'Is there a way to train for endurance without carrying a damaging level of weight?' Yep - anything will do it: running, cycling (up hills is excellent training) and walking...

I agree with this but would add that whilst endurance cycling is as good as any for aerobic fitness, it's not ideal if one is training for activities on two legs. Strong cycling muscles do not translate directly to being a strong runner/walker. So I'd suggest focusing on running so that walking muscle groups are appropriately trained.

[DarrenM]

So I'd suggest focusing on running so that walking muscle groups are appropriately trained.

If you're concerned about cartilage etc I'm confused about the running tip? One of the highest impact things you can do with your body?

That's why runners with injury get on the bike to keep the legs ticking over and maintain cardio at the same time. Cycling is one of my main forms of training outside of trail running.

I choose steeper technical trails over running on pavement as it tends to keep me lighter on the feet and less damage to the legs.

I have over trained and worked through shin splints from bashing out the k's running on the road, so it's back on the bike or simply go bushwalking, canyoning etc.

The bottom line is, what works for me may not work for you. Think about what your legs are doing when loading up with gear and climbing up and down hills. Doing squats with a bar, step ups and step downs with decent heavy Dumb bells, and lunges would be low impact but directly working and replicating what you are doing when hiking.

[GPSGuided]

If you're concerned about cartilage etc I'm confused about the running tip? One of the highest impact things you can do with your body?

There are numerous ways to run, including treadmill and on softer surfaces. It'd still be way less stress and stress than 25kg pack hauled for 6-7 hours of a day over rough terrain.

[DarrenM]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Everyone is different as stated before.
I've had to stop running occasionally for months at a time due to shin problems. I've had specialist help, footwear changes, stride and gait changes, surface changes etc, but it was the massive g force of coming down every step that was literally cracking bones. I still like trail running as training though as it definitely helps.

The whole time this was happening, I was still carrying over 25kgs for up to a couple of weeks at a time.

I hover between 80-85kgs.

[GPSGuided]

:)
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

That was obvious from quite a few posts ago.

At the end of the day, it's Gadgetgeek's body, it's his decision on what and how he wants to use it. In the meantime, time frame is important and relevant in terms of risk assessment.

[DarrenM]

It's all useful info anyway mate. Lots of good training techniques mentioned in here too. Always keen to hear of other's experiences provided they come with actual experience. Lift heavy....train heavy.

[photohiker]

:)
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Everyone is different as stated before.
I've had to stop running occasionally for months at a time due to shin problems. I've had specialist help, footwear changes, stride and gait changes, surface changes etc, but it was the massive g force of coming down every step that was literally cracking bones. I still like trail running as training though as it definitely helps.

The whole time this was happening, I was still carrying over 25kgs for up to a couple of weeks at a time.

I hover between 80-85kgs.

Please report back when you are pushing 60 years old and tell us how your joints are holding out.

[DarrenM]

Just read through the thread again and look at the actual advice I've given and specific techniques. Training heavy doesn't mean ridiculous weight. At 29 and carrying 25 kilos once a month is not going to setup a lifetime of degeneration.

I've actually recommended to carry that amount of weight only 2-3 times a month and cross train the rest giving fairly useable techniques that work and have been recommended and written up by personal trainers and sports physio on my own journey.

If you get professional help on this exact topic, they will all say the same thing. Strength training combined with endurance from cross training.

Lunges, squats, stepups, hill climbing, cycling were all good examples combined with more of the same hauling in between.

As stated earlier, sitting back and not specifically training for the OP's problem will guarantee joint problems. Read back through the info.

In terms of my own injuries......completely self inflicted. Some from over training on longer runs, never from load bearing

[davidf]

Carrying a heavy pack needs training carrying a heavy pack.

Used the uphill water method when living in Wollongong, up the escarpment and in the Grose valley. Twice a week fill 20L of water into your pack. try to get 800m elevation in. Walk up hill with water. Dump it for down hill. it works.

[Gadgetgeek]

Too bad I live at the top of the hill. my training walk area is sort of a gully off the hill, so I do some down and up. Otherwise I feel silly walking along side people's houses. Plus its hotter out on the sidewalk.

[Pika]

I am with DarrenM.

I am 40 and run a heavy pack.

I am 184cm and 100kg and sit around 10%BF.

It is sometimes difficult to get regular 'heavy pack trail training'.

I hit the gym four times a week and run twice a week.

Have done for twenty years without a single injury.

The runs keep my cardio decent and the strength training allows me to carry the pack on multi day hikes without a drama.

I often wonder how the people who are concerned about what they will be like at 60 came to the conclusion the human body is so fragile?

The gym is one of the few controlled environments real strength gains can be made in a safe environment.

Anyway, each to their own as people have posted previously. I guess everyone has an opinion.

Good luck to the original poster. If it were me, I would be following the advice of DarrenM.

[north-north-west]

I often wonder how the people who are concerned about what they will be like at 60 came to the conclusion the human body is so fragile?

Mainly through 50 years of not worrying about it and finding my body falling to pieces during the next seven years.
It's variable of course, but there is a limit to what any body can cope with, and you don't discover the true impact of the earlier misuse until much later in life.