Swimming Pack Across a River?

[lexharris]

What would happen to a Pack with drain holes in a serious river crossing ,No 1 wearing the pack ,No 2 floating the pack,or at worse having an unexpected lengthy immersion when least expected when just crossing a big creek??

Reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask - how do others deal with swimming a creek or river with a big pack?

Admin Edit: This topic has been split off from here.

[corvus]

I suspect that the waterproof pack liner I use would be buoyant enough to see me through desite extra weight

[Taurë-rana]

Reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask - how do others deal with swimming a creek or river with a big pack?

A pack will float, but of course it needs to waterproofed either by itself or with a watertight pack liner (two garbage bags, dead dog bag, etc.) I "swam" my pack in Kakadu, it wasn't very heavy but other people's were and they all floated.

[corvus]

We have gone through this b4 but a reminder is appropriate --can we drop the reference to "dead dog bags" as it is very offensive to some and frankly IMHO a bit juvenile in terminology,body bag should suffice or better HD garbage bag.
I am not an animal owner .

[Darren]

G'Day
It just so happens that I have a pack swim on Sunday. To prepare for this I got all the gear for my trip and put it in its individual bags, then I got a sea to summit ultra sil pack liner, then for weight distribution I put my boots in first, then all my gear, then blew up a platypus and put it under the hood then did it all up. I then jumped in my 20m lap pool and swam up and down to test the buoyancy and weight distribution. Not too bad and i was still able to maintain good forward motion. Once done i got out, all the water drained out the holes and i checked inside the liner, All good.
Those who have swam with any type of pack before will tell you its like a life jacket that is designed to drown you as you are constantly face down.
I would recommend some tests before you take the plunge or real
Darren

[Nuts]

I suspect that the waterproof pack liner I use would be buoyant enough to see me through desite extra weight

I got one of the s2s pack liners and have to agree, (cheap, tough and) they would take a long time to soak thru. I'm still in the habit of 'double bagging' everything inside the liner as well.. They may be 'heavier' than a garbag but if that was a major issue I would have either before a packcover

and also agree (for large packers) you could almost sleep in the liner (at a pinch)

I saw someone using a heavy duty, clear plastic bag. It looked like a good idea just the right size and handy to see everything..

[corvus]

G'day Darren,
How long were you in the water and do you think still water is the same as a strong flow.
c

[Son of a Beach]

how do others deal with swimming a creek or river with a big pack?

I think that in very slow moving water, I'd be happy to use it as a float like a kick board, or side stroke holding a handle. However, on rapid water, there is too much risk of loosing it. And if you're near naked for your river crossing through freezing water, the last thing you want is to have your pack go floating away down stream without you.

I've only done it once - at the Irenabyss on the Franklin which always has at least a moderate current. So in this case (with two of us), we used a rope. First person swum across, second threw the rope, first person pulled across one pack, threw rope back, and pulled across second pack, second person swam across. Thankfully this all happened on a warm sunny day for us! The water was still very cold.

If doing it on your own, it would be a real challenge. Do you swim a rope across, then pull the pack after you, hoping that it doesn't get caught on a rock when you try to pull it, and doesn't over-balance and fall in while you're half way across? Or do you try to swim the pack across and hope you don't lose it in the current, or get washed down-stream in the current, due to being unable to get across quickly while being slowed down by your pack.

I guess it depends on the location... the current, the depth, the length of accessible river bank (ie, is it mostly cliffs/scrub on the other side, with only a small stretch you can land on?), etc

EDIT: We waterproof pack liner bags as usual, but for the river crossing itself (based on tasadam's advice), we used extra large wheelie-bin bags and put the packs INSIDE the bags. We tied the ropes to the packs themselves (NOT to the bag around the pack), and then tied the bags around the rope in a way that was as waterproof as possible. This meant that the person on the bank had to lower the packs carefully into the water, to avoid ripping the plastic bags, but it worked exceptionally well, and kept even the outside of our packs completely dry.

[Taurë-rana]

We have gone through this b4 but a reminder is appropriate --can we drop the reference to "dead dog bags" as it is very offensive to some and frankly IMHO a bit juvenile in terminology,body bag should suffice or better HD garbage bag.
I am not an animal owner .

Apologies if I offended anyone, I thought that was what they were called. I am an owner of multiple animals and it never occurred to me that it might be offensive.

I swam with my pack (not on me) but it was still and warm water, and I would think pulling it across with a rope as Nik said would be safer if there was much of a current.

[lexharris]

If doing it on your own, it would be a real challenge. .....I guess it depends on the location...

I'm thinking here of Horseshoe Creek on the SW Cape circuit which I will be doing on my own in a few weeks' time. Chapman's latest SW Tas book indicates that the best route now is along the shore of Horseshoe Inlet as the route to the south is now very scrubby. The shore route apparently requires a short swim across Horseshoe Creek. I was just going to put my whole pack in a HD plastic bag and side stroke it across, but interested to hear other people's ideas.

[Darren]

G'Day
Weather the water is flowing or not technically shouldn’t make a difference as its only the depth that changes the pressure (1bar x 10m) but I suspect if it was really hammering like a rapid it might get in. I wouldn’t be trying to cross in that situation and if it was accidental I would have more on my mind than wet gear.
Corvus
i was in for about 20min, in that time I tried various positions etc to try and get some feel for what might happen. Normally I don’t use a pack liner, just the individual sylnylon bags but as I’m swimming i see it as bibs and braces.
I am taking my swim very seriously, hence the practice. My concerns are like Nicks. Me sitting naked on a rock in the middle of the scrub as my pack heads for sea. Because of the current the best way for me to swim is with it on my back but as I said practice first.
Now and them in summer I hike to the headwaters of the mountain rivers near me by myself with a little daypack on then cascade down the rapids and gorges. While the pack helps you float as I said its face down and if you jump off ledges your arms are nearly ripped off.
Hope that helps
Darren

[Son of a Beach]

Weather the water is flowing or not technically shouldn’t make a difference as its only the depth that changes the pressure (1bar x 10m)

As for water getting into your pack, you're correct. But the flow/current makes a lot of difference in how quickly you will need to be able to cross in order to avoid getting swept too far downstream. For a rapid current, you should aim upstream, and expect to land downstream. If you are swimming a pack across (rather than pulling it with a rope) your swim will be much slower, and if the current is fast, you could wind up a long way downstream.

Just something that needs to be taken into account when you get there. I reckon that for a moderately fast flowing river, you want to cross as fast as you can.

[woka]

I've used the heavy duty garbage bag idea before with success. I don't use the bag for anything else, so there isn't a chance of it being damaged, and capture some air in the bag before sealing it with some cord or electrical or cloth tape. Bag has come out nice and dry on the other side each time (although I've only done it twice!).

I wouldn't do it this way alone if there was a strongish current tho. For a small current, do the same as you would in a rip in the ocean: plan to come out a bit down stream and swim more with it than against it.

Doing New River Lagoon crossing with a group of 4, we missed the boats that are a bit upstream and walked right up to the mouth of the lagoon. As there was hardly any current at the time (definitely a no-no if there is an outflow), we "walked" the packs across - two of us to one pack (the girls just swam across and we took their packs in HD garbage bags). It was OK for me, I'm 6'2", but my mate, at 5'9" had to keep bouncing off his feet to get his mouth and nose above water! Only for a couple of metres though.

It's always worth wading in a bit without your pack beforehand. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but It's usually deeper and the current stronger than I think it is looking from the shore.

[Tony]

I got one of the s2s pack liners and have to agree, (cheap, tough and) they would take a long time to soak thru. I'm still in the habit of 'double bagging' everything inside the liner as well.. They may be 'heavier' than a garbag but if that was a major issue I would have either before a pack cover

A few years ago I did a chest high crossing of a flooded creek in the Budawangs NSW, I thought that I was protecting my gear with s2s sil dry bag, when I unpacked at end of day a lot of gear was wet, fortunately my sleeping bag is in a wp bag, when I got back I did some research and came across this article http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/DryGear/index.html Jim had tested s2s sil dry bags and found they leaked, I did the same with mine and found that the seam sealed joints leaked very badly and even the silnylon was porous, I have continued to use my s2s dry bag when not expecting to cross flooded rivers but on inspection the other day the seams sealing tape has deteriorated to the point that the bag is not suitable for use as a dry bag, Jims article talks about s2s Cordura bags being better, I am doing a river walking/fishing trip this weekend and I have been trying to find a suitable Cordura dry bag in Canberra to try out.

Jims article also gives some very good information on how to tie up a plastic bag to stop water entering.


Tony

[Buck]

I agree with Son of Beach. Place the pack in a "garden size" plastic garbage bag.To make the pack float, when swimming sidestroke beside it,you can use your inflatable sleeping mat to sit the pack on (needs tying on). If its a bit unstable have a person swim either side to steady the pack.Used this method successfully a number of times.

[tasadam]

I have swum across the Franklin at the Irenabyss twice.

As for swimming across, start upstream and swim directly across - don't swim upstream or downstream as you are in the water for longer than needed and it is extremely cold water.
The current takes you down as you are swimming straight across, so you get out where you need to.

The first time I swum across, I double bagged stuff in my pack that was important to keep dry, and triple bagged camera gear etc. Then I swum across, holding on to my pack as I went, sort of doing a scissor stroke with my feet and one arm. And with my Scarpas on, and still clothed.
DO NOT TRY THIS.
Nightmares of boots catching on submerged logs, letting pack go and having it disappear in the rapids around the corner, all sorts of things.
It was flowing pretty fast that time too. Young and naive was I. My mate swum across first then when he gets out he calls back to me "Don't muck around.... Current really grabs ya...."
And it was raining.

The second time I crossed, there were two of us - we had planned ahead and had taken a length of rope and some large garbage bags - the orange ones with the yellow tie-cords around the neck.
We also had normal black garbage bags with us - not the stretchy green ones that rip easily, but the stronger black ones that are really noisy when you crinkle them.
As Nik said, I tied the rope to one pack leaving enough tail on the rope to tie to the second pack. Checked the knots so I knew I wouldn't lose the packs unless I lost the rope.
Put the packs in the orange garbage bags (one for each), and tied around the rope with the yellow tie-cord.

Got naked and put all my clothes and boots in a black garbage bag. I swum across towing the rope and holding on to the bag with my clothes.
Got out, attached the rope so I wouldn't lose it while I got my gear back on, then had my wife lower the packs into the water. I pulled the rope and they floated across really easily.
I got them out of the river, then my wife crossed the river with her black garbage back full of gear same way I did.

A bit of planning goes a long way when crossing a river. Think about what "could" happen if things go bad, then think about what you can do to give you the best chance of success.

Something else worth mentioning in this thread is "when to cross".
If you come to a river late in the day and you have a choice to camp on either side, if it is possible you are advised to cross then camp - if it rains overnight the river may rise and you could be stuck there for hours or even days waiting for the level to drop.

And if the river has already risen, do not cross. Make camp - backtrack to somewhere to do this if you have to. Better than becoming a statistic and burdening others with your rescue or recovery.
Staying safe is primary.

[lexharris]

For the expected swim across Horseshoe Creek I'm going to put my pack inside my Goretex bivvy bag. I checked it for watertightness by turning inside out and filling with water - doesn't leak a drop. Unlike my s2s "dry" bags which do leak and are OK for secondary protection but not submersion. The bivvy bag is as tough as nails, big enough to take whole pack plus boots, gaiters, cameras, etc, and dries quickly afterwards. Horseshoe Creek is only about 20m wide according to Google Earth imagery and hopefully will be reasonably straightforward to cross.

[Singe]

After reading the leeches thread, this topic is irrelevant because I'm never setting foot in the water again!

[rcaffin]

Empty pack on river side.
Insert garbage bag.
Reload gear gently.
Do up top of bag with big rubber band.
Swim river with pack upright as a floatie.

Never had a problem.
Always carry a garbage bag in the pack.

Cheers

[Paul]

I have swam 6 rivers between Port Davey and Cape Sorrell, and also the Franklin River recently.
These were extended walks ( 26 days/23 days) and my pack was quite heavy ( 27kg)
I use a commercial pack liner and I have never had any water get in to my gear.

[lexharris]

I have swam 6 rivers between Port Davey and Cape Sorrell, and also the Franklin River recently.
These were extended walks ( 26 days/23 days) and my pack was quite heavy ( 27kg)
I use a commercial pack liner and I have never had any water get in to my gear.

Paul, interested to know if you crossed wearing clothes, boots and pack or stripped off and floated pack/gear over. I have stuff in several side pockets which won't fit inside the main pack hence putting the whole pack in a waterproof bag seems the best option. Also I'm not keen on wading into deep creeks/rivers with bare feet, just wondering if swimming with boots was a problem, others have said it was.

[Paul]

Hi Lexharris,

Yes I strip off, place my backpack in a WE 85 litre waterproof sack, then place my clothes, boots and towell on top of my pack in the sack. These are then immediately availabe once accross the river.

I wear yachtie's deck slippers for foot protection from rocks etc, these then become my camp shoes.

Never had any serious problems, however we always place safety as No.1 priority. Davey River crossing at Settlement Point ( 170 meteres), Wanderer River crossing and Franklinr River crossing ( at Nth end of Great Ravine ) were very "testing"

I am usually in a group, we send strongest swimmer over first with rope attached, we can pull him back if he srtikes trouble, or he gets over and attaches rope safety line.

Then I cross by beaching myself on top of floating sack, a real art because sack is very unstable. Kick like hell and breastroke with arms. I cross with myself attached to safety line and sack also attached seperately.

Happy & safe walking,
Paul.

[olblackbilly]

a couple of garbage bags and a bit of grey 50mm tape will do the trick, they will always float ,make sure you have a rope attached to it, you dont want to lose your pack

[Dave Bremers]

For our upcoming trip up New River I'm waterproofing my pack with two packliners and everything inside them in drysacks. We expect to be in and out of the river for the majority of the days, so we need a system where we can simply "throw" the packs in the river and put them straight back on when we get to the otherside. It also leaves the straps free to haul with (though I noticed that Son of a Beach managed to tie the rope to the pack when it was inside the garbage bag). Granted the fabric of the pack will absorb a kilo or two of water but thats something we'll have to deal with.

The two pack liners I'm going to use are: Mont silnyl pack liner (on the inside) and a Kathmandu packliner (outside the mont one). The Kathmandu one is very rugged so actually I might put it on the inside to stop my gear scratching holes in the mont one.

[Ent]

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[Macca81]

We have gone through this b4 but a reminder is appropriate --can we drop the reference to "dead dog bags" as it is very offensive to some and frankly IMHO a bit juvenile in terminology,body bag should suffice or better HD garbage bag.
I am not an animal owner .

Apologies if I offended anyone, I thought that was what they were called. I am an owner of multiple animals and it never occurred to me that it might be offensive.

I swam with my pack (not on me) but it was still and warm water, and I would think pulling it across with a rope as Nik said would be safer if there was much of a current.

just to drag up some old stuff...

i am lucky enough to know several people in the veterinary industry, and i had to ask them about this subject. not one of them has ever known of a name to call these bags other than 'dead dog bags'. even when they order them in they ask for x number of small, medium, large or x large dead dog bags...
no offence intended corvus, but how is using the industry name for something possibly a negative thing?

[adventurescape]

I asked for a "deceased canine bag" when visiting a vet surgery to procure one of these items. I thought it necessary to be this unusually PC (on my own scale of things) because there were about four dog owners with their animals in the waiting room within earshot.

[corvus]

I asked for a "deceased canine bag" when visiting a vet surgery to procure one of these items. I thought it necessary to be this unusually PC (on my own scale of things) because there were about four dog owners with their animals in the waiting room within earshot.

Why not just ask for a body bag you know that the Vet staff would know what you wanted and would ask what size (if indeed they do vary) as I suspect in order to reduce cost they well may be "one size fits all" IMHO you would get by with a heavy duty garbage bag unless you are crossing a really BIG river
corvus

[adventurescape]

I did get a choice of sizes. I went for the second largest. It is exactly the same size as a Kathmandu heavy duty pack liner, but not yellow with survival tips and a checker board on it. It was only $1.50 or so and is *&%$#! tough.

I guess there is no difference in intended use in the vet industry and only size is the issue. I don't think horse or cow owners bring their animals in to the surgery...

[corvus]

I asked for a "deceased canine bag" when visiting a vet surgery to procure one of these items. I thought it necessary to be this unusually PC (on my own scale of things) because there were about four dog owners with their animals in the waiting room within earshot.

I think you are just stirring which hurts Animal lovers who have recently lost their loved pets ,not appropriate and please learn sensitivity and grow up corvus