Snake bites

[corvus]

This is a bit of a worry though:

You can get bitten by a dead snake - they have a biting reflex that remains intact for many hours after death.

The answer to that is don't kill snakes and don't pick up dead ones
corvus

[Onestepmore]

We carry a couple of these with us when walking, for the possibility of a snake bite, and for sprained ankles etc, or securing a padded gauze bandage. I also carry a roll of elastoplast. After all the technical info here it's probably the wrong thing to use!

Vet Wrap/Co-Flex etc. many similar brands. We use it extensively for vet bandaging.
Easy to apply too tight but doesn't absorb water, is light, no fasteners needed, you can tear it with your fingers, it sticks to iself but is not adherant to skin, is semi-reusable if u unwrap it carefully, and if you need to you can rip a bit off,twist it up and it can act like a thin rope for a torniquet if needed

eg
http://www.horsesuppliesdirect.com.au/prod366.htm
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/e ... SHCMRQXXgl
http://www.vetproductsdirect.com.au/ItemDesc.asp?IC=683

Can anyone who's got proper first aid training, or first hand experience with wrapping a snake bite victim tell me if these type of bandges are suitable? You can get a pretty good pressure with them. Or should I be buying dedicated brand name Setopress?

[wander]

I do the 1 day 1st Aid update course each year as a work requirement. Each year the things that alter slightly are CPR and Snake Bite Treatment. So my starting suggestion would be to do a 1st aid course and do the yearly updates. You can talk about the different bandages in the course.

What you carry as a bandage depends on how many functions you want it to fulfil or other words how heavy or light do you want your 1st aid kit to be. There is no right or wrong answer to this question. Just something to work through. The snake bite bandages need to be easily applied, removed and re-applied and be able to apply an even pressure over the largest practical area. A strip torn T shirt with a bit of stretch in the fabric will do this as will a dedicated bandage.

I have stepped on numerous snakes and not been bitten. I am getting better at avoiding them and have not stepped on one for maybe 5 or 6 years. I have gotten better as seeing them earlier and being able to keep a distance. Avoidance and protection is better than treatment with snakes. Wearing gaiters is the next basic defence followed by a long sleeve shirt and in more recent years wearing gardening gloves. It also helps to have an idea where they are likely to be and sunny spots on dry forest trails are a classic for finding a snake warming up. In short 1st aid is the last resort.

[dplanet]

The following is a copy from one of my posts early this year after coming back from Tasmania.

"Here is my recent experience with the snake. Seven snakes have been seen this year so far and 6 of them were tiger snakes.
· One was swimming across a river.
· One fled under a rock covered with low scrub
· Three were on an old and quiet forest road on a sunny day in the same morning. Two of them held me off for about 10 minutes and i had to negotiate with them in a positive manner so that they could give way to me. I tried to make some noise with my feet and loudly asked to let me go.
· One was on the bank of a river hurrily running away when i came to collect my socks hung on a tree branch for drying. It was only about 5 metres from my tent and I camped there for 2 nights.
· One small green snake (about half of metre) was on a clear foot track."

[tasadam]

Small green being olive green / fawn brown, being the white lipped snake.

Best thing I would recommend is see a presentation by Michael Thow, Tas northwest snake handler based in Ulverstone.
He demonstrated a couple of bandage techniques, including one on the forehead.
Main difference for me is now I carry a bandage in my pocket when walking. The time it would have taken for me to get my pack off, get to the first aid kit, get into it, get a bandage out & ready to wrap, can make a huge difference.

[Overlandman]

From ABC News
A Darwin hockey player has died after a snake bit him on the finger at a training session.
Paramedics were called to the hockey complex in the suburb of Marrara on Tuesday night following reports that a player had collapsed and lost consciousness.
It is believed Karl Berry, 26, had picked up a snake at an office near the training field and thrown it into nearby bushes.
He did not notice he had been bitten and continued training.
Other players said he later collapsed.
St John ambulance spokesman Craig Garraway said Mr Berry was conscious when paramedics arrived at the sports complex.
"We found a male who had just been on a two-kilometre run, feeling quite unwell," he said.
"After some discussion and investigation, we became aware he had picked up a snake off the hockey field... and it had actually bitten him on the finger."
He was taken to Royal Darwin Hospital in a critical condition.
His life support system was turned off on Thursday.

Mr Berry had played for the Commerce-Pints club since 1997.
He was captain of the A-grade side; he umpired, coached, and represented the Territory in under-15 and under-18 sides.
Informally, he was known in sport circles as Darwin's 'Mr Hockey'.
Senior hockey players in Darwin will have a minute's silence before all games this weekend to remember him.
The NT Hockey Association says A-grade players will wear black arm bands during all matches this weekend.

Territory reptile experts say the most likely highly venomous snake to be found in the vicinity of the Marrara sports complex is a western brown.
Darwin snake catcher Chris Peberty says a bite from a western brown snake can easily not be noticed because it doesn't hurt.
"Then, within hours, you are looking at a lack of coordination, dilated pupils, then you go into the risk of the systemic effects which start affecting your heart, your lungs, your respiratory system," he said.
"You die if you don't get treatment.
"They're at least one to 1.5 times more toxic than the cobra.
"Western browns are responsible for a large number of snake bite deaths in Australia each year and they are responsible for at least 18 of the last 24 deaths in Australia."

[photohiker]

"Western browns are responsible for a large number of snake bite deaths in Australia each year and they are responsible for at least 18 of the last 24 deaths in Australia."

One has to wonder how or if Wikipedia is so wrong? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa ... _Australia

They do say that the list is incomplete, but the ABS stats referenced point to a fairly small incidence of death:

Between 1979 and 1998 there were 53 deaths from snakes, according to data obtained from the Australian Bureau of Statistics.[5] Between 1942 and 1950 there were 56 deaths from snakebite recorded in Australia. Of 28 deaths in the 1945-49 period, 18 occurred in Queensland, 6 in New South Wales, 3 in Western Australia and 1 in Tasmania.[6]

[Overlandman]

ABC Wrote, Overlandman copied & Pasted!
They should have said Brown snakes in general, including the Eastern, Western & King varieties.

[wayno]

We carry a couple of these with us when walking, for the possibility of a snake bite, and for sprained ankles etc, or securing a padded gauze bandage. I also carry a roll of elastoplast. After all the technical info here it's probably the wrong thing to use!

Vet Wrap/Co-Flex etc. many similar brands. We use it extensively for vet bandaging.
Easy to apply too tight but doesn't absorb water, is light, no fasteners needed, you can tear it with your fingers, it sticks to iself but is not adherant to skin, is semi-reusable if u unwrap it carefully, and if you need to you can rip a bit off,twist it up and it can act like a thin rope for a torniquet if needed

eg
http://www.horsesuppliesdirect.com.au/prod366.htm
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/e ... SHCMRQXXgl
http://www.vetproductsdirect.com.au/ItemDesc.asp?IC=683

Can anyone who's got proper first aid training, or first hand experience with wrapping a snake bite victim tell me if these type of bandges are suitable? You can get a pretty good pressure with them. Or should I be buying dedicated brand name Setopress?

this might answer your question viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12365&p=163542&hilit=setopres#p163316

[colinm]

Here's something interesting. http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/nature/p ... nake-bite/

TL;DR: man bitten by rattlesnake used vacuum suction kit to extract some venom, it is asserted that this helped.

Now ... I know elapid venom is not usually injected into and nor does it travel through the bloodstream, but I do not see that that makes any necessary difference in the efficacy of this kind of device ... does lymph not respond to a vacuum?

I do not understand why this kind of mechanical intervention to extract venom from the body could not be useful, could not help, in the case of an australian snake bite. I do not understand how, if it was able to extract venom at all, that wouldn't help. I also don't know that it could not be used in conjunction with the standard pressure-bandage technique.

Not wanting to get anybody killed, but also not seeing the reasoning against something like this.

Colin.

EDIT: answering my own question http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14747805 ... still I'm not convinced.
more debunking http://www.doctorross.co.za/wp-content/ ... n-n-am.pdf

[wayno]

well just how effective is it going to be? it would depend on the nature of the bite, maybe this guy was just scratched and negligible venom if any got in.
You're taking a gamble using that method, you've no way of knowing how much of the vemon you have gotten out assuming it is getting any out. and you're still going to have to bind with compression bandage if you want to be sore of preventing the spread of the venom, but in this case you're going to be delaying putting the bandage on and delaying the spread of any venom through the body. .... that suction pump is about as proven as sucking out the venom with your mouth and thats not a recommended method, mate it i got bitten , i'd be on teh cell phone or setting the beacon off immediately if i was out of cell range, and i'd be bandaging immediately and sitting nice and still still some professionals arrived, rather that use a suction pump and hope for the best....

[colinm]

The second debunking link suggests that suction gets only a negligible proportion of the venom out (max 2%) and that it closes the distal venom track, so stops venom weeping out of its own accord (apparently their snake venoms contain anticoagulants.) OTOH, it also suggests that it disperses the venom subcutaneously leading to localised necrosis (their snake venoms do that) which suggests there's some action.

Me, if I'm ever bitten it's EPIRB, sit still, bandage and wait ... but I'm all about the evidence.

[Onestepmore]

Thanks for the informative links colinm.

My grandmother always carried a snakebite kit with her when we went on walks - a very archaic model that consisted of a blade on a wooden handle, and a screw-type end that had Condy's crystals (potassium permanganate) in it. The deal was, that if someone got bitten, you'd cut out the bite site, suck like mad with your mouth and spit, and then douse the whole things in Condy's. Thankfully, as kids, we never had to use it. It scared the $%*& out of us that we might have to use it one day! To this day i stil tell my kids - always step ON a log, not over it - there might be a snake coiled up on the other side. One of Grandma's school friends died when she went to have a pee, got bitten on the bottom, and didn't tell anyone about it because of embarassment.

Unfortunately an old bushie's remedy for treating snakebite in dogs is to cut off their ears with a penknife. This 'lets the poison out'. I am sure the dogs I have seen in the past that go about earless simply had a 'dry bite' ie were struck but not envenomated. I told this story to our current nurses when treating a dog (appropriately with IV fluids and antivenom, corticosteroids, niramine, adrenaline etc) and they were suitably horrified. Hopefully this old practise will die out with the old bushies.

[Malcolm]

http://bsar.org/setopress

The above address provides fairly comprehensive information re snake bites and setopress bandages including on-line sites where you can purchase setopress, ~$19 + postage.
On a St John Remote Area course in Sydney the instructor took orders for setopress & we collected them a couple of weeks later, about $25 back in 2003. They appear to be a quality product as it hasn't lost its elastic properties yet (I examine it occasionally & so far its ok).

[Overlandman]

Interesting Story & Video from ABC news

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-07/b ... om/5003208

A Brisbane nurse is recovering in hospital following a desperate international search for anti-venom after being bitten by a deadly Asian pit viper in Nepal.

Delmae Ryan, 49, was bitten after stepping on the viper late last month, and with no anti-venom in the country she had to fly home to Australia.
Ms Ryan had to wait three days before being medically cleared to make the 20-hour flight back to Brisbane.
A day after she returned from Nepal, the anti-venom was located in Melbourne where it was being used for research purposes.
Emergency physician Colin Page, who led the search for the anti-venom, says Ms Ryan is extremely lucky to have made it back to Australia alive.
Dr Page says her blood's inability to clot was "completely off the scale" and she was one accident away from death.
"This is measured in seconds; 10 or 20 seconds [is normal] but her [blood's ability to clot] was greater than 200 seconds," he said.
Ms Ryan said she was throwing herself around trying to move on one leg during the flight and the days before she was admitted to hospital.
All it would have taken is one fall and she could have bled to death, Dr Page said.
"At any one of those times she may have fallen over, hit her head, and potentially suffer a life-threatening haemorrhage in the brain," Dr Page said.

[BushWalkerNO1utube]

person who has been bitten will feel pain. Look for fang marks and swelling. Call 000 immediately if they have been bitten. Then apply a pressure Immobilisation bandage to the effected area, this involves bandaging over the bite site to the extremity and back to the joint beyond the bite on the effected limb. Mark the bite site on the bandage. Keep the bitten part of the body lower than the heart and do not walk unless absolutely necessary.

[GPSGuided]

Who would set off their PLB for a snake bite?

[BushWalkerNO1utube]

If it is venomous snake like a brown you would set of a PLB, you cant exactly walk out from the middle of the bush, otherwise the venom could spread and kill you!

[jackhinde]

i'd set off a PLB for some snake species, others only if i felt certain symptoms.

[GPSGuided]

Would people still set it off in an area where there's mobile coverage? Use the phone or PLB?

[Giddy_up]

Would people still set it off in an area where there's mobile coverage? Use the phone or PLB?

I think I would still set off the PLB. Just allows rescue teams to pinpoint your location with ease. Phone translation can become quite difficult to decipher, especially if your the one who has been bitten. It would also have to be a known deadly species for me to do it though.

[GPSGuided]

I think I would still set off the PLB. Just allows rescue teams to pinpoint your location with ease. Phone translation can become quite difficult to decipher, especially if your the one who has been bitten. It would also have to be a known deadly species for me to do it though.

I agree and a good logic to back up the action. One would also assume that both messaging routes would get to the same emergency response centre. But I am not sure I can always differentiate the deadly species from those pain-in-a-bite species.

[Strider]

+1

Have PLB, will use it.

[Gemma]

Great information, thank you.

I've just ordered 2 Setopress bandages from Home Pharmacy. They were $16.39ea plus $6.95 postage. A small price to pay when you think about it, lets hope I never have to use them.

We live in the bush and had a red-bellied black and a tiger snake around the house last summer and have seen some on walks and while riding my horse a few years ago.

Last year we travelled in the USA & Canada for most of the year...not sure what's worse - bears, mountain lions and rattlers or deadly Australian snakes??

[GPSGuided]

One 59 yo woman in the Hunter region has just died as a result of a snake bite of unknown species. Despite all the advances in anti-venoms, it's still a potentially lethal mode of injury.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/woman-dies-af ... 2wy83.html

[tasadam]

.... One of Grandma's school friends died when she went to have a pee, got bitten on the bottom, and didn't tell anyone about it because of embarassment....

Are you able to get more detail on this? Was it in Tasmania, and happened in 1966? Possibly the last snakebite fatality (excepting one snake handler in the '70s) in Tasmania.
I have heard one version of this as happening in central Tas, and another on the South Coast track somewhere.
Certainly the story matches, so might be the same event - I am interested for historical reasons as I haven't been able to locate accurate info previously.

[GPSGuided]

One 59 yo woman in the Hunter region has just died as a result of a snake bite of unknown species. Despite all the advances in anti-venoms, it's still a potentially lethal mode of injury.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/woman-dies-af ... 2wy83.html

As it turned out, the husband, first responders and initial A&E treatments didn't consider snake bite as the cause and treated her as a stroke patient. Died a few days later as a result of venom induced coagulopathy. Most unfortunate.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/201 ... 885007.htm

[Nuts]

.... One of Grandma's school friends died when she went to have a pee, got bitten on the bottom, and didn't tell anyone about it because of embarassment....

Are you able to get more detail on this? Was it in Tasmania, and happened in 1966? Possibly the last snakebite fatality (excepting one snake handler in the '70s) in Tasmania.
I have heard one version of this as happening in central Tas, and another on the South Coast track somewhere.
Certainly the story matches, so might be the same event - I am interested for historical reasons as I haven't been able to locate accurate info previously.

1948 at Cradle Mt. as I understand she made it back to the lodge where she passed away but yes, had been bitten on the backside doing the bush toilet thing. A sydney uni group? There was a news article, perhaps in one of the huts at one stage, most likely the Mercury.

[GPSGuided]

1948 at Cradle Mt. as I understand she made it back to the lodge where she passed away but yes, had been bitten on the backside doing the bush toilet thing. A sydney uni group? There was a news article, perhaps in one of the huts at one stage, most likely the Mercury.

That matches with our recent detailed discussion on Taffy's Rock track up in Cowan-Brooklyn, NSW. Do a search and all the history have already been posted.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14112&hilit=taffys+rock

[Nuts]

Ah, ok. The dates add up, I seem to recall it was January as I remember that story and another about aggressive male snakes in mating season ie. january, they stick in the mind.. (the old chap who told me is no longer with us)... though if it was indeed Pelion they managed to get her a long way back.