Had to activate PLB

[wayno]

thing is, how long is that river. you can get localised heavy rain further up the river and not know about it... rivers can flash flood when you never expect it, you may think you know how they behave, but then you have to think again
rivers were the leading cause of death in NZ in the nineteenth century, at least on land. we're lucky that the popular tracks are all pretty much well bridged otherwise it would still be killing people in significant no's... who knows how many lives those bridges have saved. easy to take for granted until you actually do a track where you have to cross a significant water course... pays to practice your river crossing and pack floating skills, and not take too big a risk if you put them to the test.. i'd never pack floated before i got swept down a flooded river, i was going to ditch my pack but realised it was helping me afloat so kept it on me. to start with it was on top of me and i struggled to keep my head above water but then flipped over so it was under me, but i left it on my back and was being dragged backwards, you should swing around and face the direction youre going to see any hazzards.
if you really have to cross a river with a pack you should have it in front of you as you face the direction you're travelling.

[perfectlydark]

Not to be nitpicky but I would like to see how the cost of a rescue is calculated. If its something like the department budget plus expenses divided by number of rescues I tend to th8nk costs for individual rescues are grossly exaggerated. Even for on call staff plus fuel, overtime where necessary, permits (and whatever else variables exist) I could not fathom a simple rescue above costing $10000.
im not saying use the things for no good reason, far from it. Especially if several rescues are required in the same time obbiously resourcing will be an issue, just k8nd of irks me when "costs" are thrown around by the media. Love to know how thats worked out

[puredingo]

And here I was forking out $200 big ones for a private plane to get me the hell out of Yeranderrie when my feet were totally destroyed when all I had to do was summon chopper squad and the lift would of been for nix!

Well played Dingo, you fool. At this rate you'll never be able to afford to hikelite....


But seriously, I tend to agree with KB on his decision not to walk out via KW's. Unless it's a well defined track and I bought the map (which I wouldn't of due to the unexpected nature of the situation) I would be worried I was just getting deeper into search resources by being lost deeper in the scrub.

[davidf]

KB, you did what you had to do, but:

You should always have a plan b, c&d. I have had many snafus over the years and NOW always know of many other options for when the game plan goes tits up. This does not always work, like being in a Colo flood and the maps turning into paper machete. I must admit though I'm quite happy drinking beer with the dog at home looking at maps.

I think I like others who think you could of done things differently are appreciative of you being open about what happened.

What did you catch!

[Strider]

KB, you did what you had to do, but:

You should always have a plan b, c&d. I have had many snafus over the years and NOW always know of many other options for when the game plan goes tits up. This does not always work, like being in a Colo flood and the maps turning into paper machete. I must admit though I'm quite happy drinking beer with the dog at home looking at maps.

I think I like others who think you could of done things differently are appreciative of you being open about what happened.

What did you catch!

Paper machete?! Beer drinking dog?!

[Ent]

Interesting the different views. The Tassie Police appear to be happy with the decision making process of the NW Walking club group that wound up in a similar situation on the weekend.

Not good been stuck on the wrong side of an "intermittent stream" that became a torrent a few years back. We had tents so had the option to setup for the night to wait out the flood but as luck had it we found a tree "bridge" further up stream so got home in time for tea.

I personally would prefer people rescued alive than dragged dead from rivers. We all plan but in our case record rains made the most innocuous stream a potential killer. It reinforced with me to have plans B through to Z. At worse in our case another night out probably meeting search and rescue coming down the track the other way.

I struggle with comments that you should have a satellite phone. Apart from the cost and weight they are generally not as indestructible as a PLB. Frankly some OH&S types that never venture out of their warm office would have a gear list that few could afford and nobody could carry.

Central search and rescue was slammed by Four Corners re a Tasmanian incident so they are on shakey ground. Have the greatest respect for the actual search and rescue on ground people. They have the practical experience to understand what people face on the ground.

As I rule I respect people's decision to call for help and prepared to leave it up to search and rescue to deal with each case on its merits.

Regards

[bernieq]

What are the odds of both people being incapacitated? Plus, for a long walk, the same could be said if you're injured early in the trip. I'm yet to hear any stories of someone who had died in the bush, having a PLB but not having set it off. I'm happy to stand corrected, but I'd suggest it is extremely unlikely. The only scenario I can see as being possible is a solo trip.

FatCanyoner, there are many plausible scenarios where a group may not be able to activate a PLB when it’s needed – here’s one.
The person with the PLB falls over a cliff and lands on a ledge, unconscious (or dead?) and inaccessible.

However, I agree that going solo increases the risk of not being able to activale the PLB - Solo walker falls over a cliff, lands on a ledge, PLB keeps going (over the edge). He breaks an ankle, a wrist, gashes leg (this one is a real event).

The point is that a PLB is a vital piece of safety equipment – but other precautions also improve your chances of surviving a difficult situation – planning (including escape routes), due caution, leaving trip plan with EC.

[kanangra]

I have to say that I too believe that, notwithstanding what the crew said, that it was inappropriate to set off the alarm when there was no immediate threat or danger and no-one was injured. It concerns me that these PLB's have become just too easy a way out for people. I understand that you were concerned about triggering a search by being late but surely some buffer could be agreed in advance. In any event this was not a sudden disaster. Once there you could see what was happening and could have adapted your plans accordingly. If you have the knowledge and capacity to get in there you should have the mapreading skills to work out an escape route if necessary. with respect KB it is not necessary to know every square inch of the area just the main escape routes. As has been pointed out there was right behind you a ridge which would have led you out to civilisation in no more than half a day. If you were concerned about being late you could, and in my view, should have walked out to Kanangra and raised the alarm from there.

I know this was not your case but I believe we are probably fast approaching the stage when people will set these things off because they just couldn't be bothered walking out. It is just to easy to pull the pin.

K.

PS KB did you catch anything, apart from a cold that is?

[wayno]

if you've got a locator beacon, doesnt it follow if you're late out and the beacon hasnt gone off then theres probably nothing to worry about? if you're late and the beacon hasnt gone off , sar won't start searching for at least a day after your due out time

[sthughes]

sar won't start searching for at least a day after your due out time

Err, yes they will.

Not knowing the area at all, I assumed there was no way out but the way you went in! I'd probably have packed up and headed the alternate way too if it was indeed possible.

[bernieq]

if you've got a locator beacon, doesnt it follow if you're late out and the beacon hasnt gone off then theres probably nothing to worry about?

Hmmm, which bit of this senario don't you think is possible?

The person with the PLB falls over a cliff and lands on a ledge, unconscious (or dead?) and inaccessible.

or what about Madpom's experience in NZ? He had a PLB and was late out (very injured and unable to activate his PLB) but was very keen on someone looking for him!

sar won't start searching for at least a day after your due out time

Not so. If AMSA receive a PLB alert, they task SAR. It is then SAR's responsibility and decision on what resources to depoly and when. That depends on each unique set of circumstances - which is why it's advisable to leabe as much detailed info with appropriate people - it makes it easier for SAR to initiate action.

[wayno]

yeah i said if you're late and the beacon HASNT GONE OFF

[wayno]

if you're not walking in an area as dangerous as madpom the chances of something going wrong and not being able to set off a beacon are less. you can still brief whoever is your emergency contact on what time frame you think is best to alert authorities if you are late , take into account the chances of something serious going wrong given the terrain you are in versus the chances of just being late, its a judgment call...

[Strider]

what about Madpom's experience in NZ? He had a PLB and was late out (very injured and unable to activate his PLB) but was very keen on someone looking for him!

Are you talking about Matt Briggs? If so, didn't he leave his PLB behind accidentally?

[wayno]

he did, but lets say he had it and couldnt activate it after he fell because he lost it in the fall , its a valid scenario....

[bernieq]

Yeah, if your late and the beacon hasn't gone off, you said "there's probably nothing to worry about". I think that's wrong.

My point is that there are many possibilities why a PLB might not be activated when an emergency has occurred (and you're late). SAR should/would not assume all was well because the PLB had not been activated.

Are you talking about Matt Briggs? If so, didn't he leave his PLB behind accidentally?

He did lose half his gear out of his pack on the fall (I recall his story on tramper.co.nz said that included his PLB - maybe my faulty memory).

[David M]

Someone asked the OP but there was no answer. Did the rescue team give you time to pack up and take your gear?

What normally happens in these situations? Do you get to take your gear or are you made to leave it?

[wayno]

varies, i've seen a situation where only the people were evacuated, not sure if it was limited room in the helicopter with the two people being rescued and the crew in a squirel helicopter. or if they left their packs in the rush.
i was rescued by helicopter, they waited for me to pack up my gear, i was injured and the only one being evacuated. it was an air force bell iroquois, plenty of room. it was only a few minutes to stuff my gear into my pack it wasnt dismantling a campsite...

[bernieq]

But the one issue that I have is – when should you state your return time/day?. If you give yourself say an extra 24-36hrs just in case you are going to be delayed, what then happens if you are in a real emergency? – You are going to have to wait at least that time before a rescue is mounted.

you can still brief whoever is your emergency contact on what time frame you think is best to alert authorities if you are late

As I occasionally lead club walks (usually remote), I have thought about the setting of the return time and have come to the following position :
I provide the Emergency Contact (EC) with two times;
1. the expected contact time (the latest time by which I expect to have finished the walk and contacted the EC)
2. the drop-dead time (if no contact by this time, call 000 – there is a serious issue)

I always carry a PLB and update the AMSA record with relevant information (EC details, dates of walk, general location). The EC, of course, has full details of the planned walk (including a gpx of the plan) If I have not made contact by the drop-dead time, I expect the EC to call 000 and advise that we are critically overdue (ie initiate the SAR procedure immediately).

The time span between the two depends on the nature of the walk and extent of mobile phone coverage. The more remote and the less phone coverage, the greater the gap.

Two examples :
NZ remote trip (9 days), no phone coverage for last 7 days. Expected to end the walk by 10am Wed, set the drop-dead to 10 noon Thu (24 hours)

Weekend in the Lerderderg Gorge, phone coverage much of the trip and for the last 4 hours, relatively easy to get phone access in the event of an emergency by climbing out of the valley. Expected to end the walk by 2pm Sun, set the drop-dead to 4pm Sun (2 hours)

It's the drop-dead time that's important - once that's exceeded, I want a rescue initiated, PLB activated or not ! (please :)

[wayno]

there was a recent case in nz, the authorities considered, prosecuting a chap who set off a beacon because he knew a search was going to be launched due to being over a days behind schedule... in the end they accepted his scenario as being legitimate enough to set off the beacon.... he was a very experienced tramper with decades of experienced,,, he wasnt cut off by a river but he had badly underestimated how difficult the terrain was going to be.
a "drop-dead" time as bernie refers to is the ten thousand dollar question, how long to you leave for the drop dead time.... you have to estimate one as best you can based on the circumstances, your ability versus how likely you might get injured or stuck in the terrain your covering..... my trips the drop dead period is a day to two days on a three or four day trip depending on how likely i am to get held up.... these are trips on established tracks.. i'd re evaluate those times to shorter times if i was off track where injury was a higher concern,

[bernieq]

there was a recent case in nz, the authorities considered, prosecuting a chap who set off a beacon because he knew a search was going to be launched due to being over a days behind schedule

I actually fed the details to AMSA and asked if the Maritime NZ response (ie accepting the non-critical activation of PLB) gave AMSA any pause for thought on their current policy - no response (yet).
Note that Maritime NZ - RRCNZ is the NZ equivalent of AMSA.

i'd re evaluate those times to shorter times if i was off track where injury was a higher concern,

That's actually the opposite of what I do ?! Less phone coverage / more remote / greater risk = later drop-dear time (mainly becasue I reckon my estimate of finish time is subject to greater error).

[wayno]

on a good track in nz there can still be big scope to get delayed by a high river, on a rough track i'd be giving a conservative estimate of my time out so if i miss that time theres a reasonable chance something has gone wrong...

maritime nz may have wanted to make an example of the chap in nz....
no end of problem call outs from boaties in nz who are out of their depth. and often are actually late in making calls for help because their pride keeps them from calling for help earlier, ie they are lost and wait till dark before calling for help when they don't have a clue where they are..... so the tramper may have just been a case of the wrong call for help at the wrong time... they were pretty quick to talk about looking at prosecuting him. if it wasnt using a plb satellite the police would have been involved and just shrugged the event off without a concern...

[KANANGRABOYD]

Someone asked the OP but there was no answer. Did the rescue team give you time to pack up and take your gear?
,
What normally happens in these situations? Do you get to take your gear or are you made to leave it?

Hi David yes we had our gear all packed and ready to go and I made sure that there was nothing loose hanging off our packs as I've been in helicopters plenty of times before. we were able to take all our gear but then again all our gear consisted of just out personal backpacks.
I have spent the better part of the afternoon writing up responses mostly to David Noble and Tim Voller, but for some reason my computer keeps freezing so I am using tablet right now. I am actually considering not posting any replies especially to David because I think that this will turn into another Philip thread.
All I will say is that there are very few people if any that have the experience of David (unless of course you are Myles Dunphy or Dot Butler ),and also those routes that you had mentioned were not really viable for us considering that I thought by Friday we would be able to cross the river and I didn't even think of spending a full day hiking through unfamiliar terrain and then not having anyone come by or not having cell phone reception. David it is easy for you to say all those things and options such as kelpie point flying fox it cetera because you have all those years experience in that area of the mountains(yourself and to some extent Tim, are people that spend almost every waking second absorbed in the hiking world and very few people are as involved in it as your are particu،arly David),and I am pretty sure anyone would be hard pressed to find someone "alive" that knows more about that area of the mountains than yourself, and I think it would be a little ludicrous to try and plan for every single possible scenario imaginable.
As I had stated in the original post, prior to the trip I had done as much pre trip reconnaissance for this trip that I personally think I could do, and even though I have done that trip at least 30 times I still every single time check the weather check the river height data and try and make sure that it is going to be safe. I always fill out a trip intention form and always carry a plb or satellite phone. I actually own a iridium satellite phone however I don't have any current minutes or monthly subscription so that is why I hadn't taken it with us this trip.
Contrary to what some people on this forum may think or state, I did not and we did not use the PLB willy nilly and be lazy and just want a free trip out of that location. David the terrain that you mentioned to walk out to the road is not easy terrain and yes sure we could have walked out that way or back to KW but that would have taken a full day as you well know, and there were no guarantees that someone would be there to collect us etcetera.
I was quite hesitant to post this on the forums because I knew that some members would think that this was a foolish idea and of course there are members that think they know better than everyone but unless you are in that particular situation it is not easy to make certain decisions.
My reasoning to post this was to get some feedback and I can take negative feedback but it was mainly to see what options there exist for anyone in a similar position. I work in the health profession and in the past have worked closely with search and rescue personnel all over the world and I am fully aware of what resources are taken up in a situation as what I was in.
There have been very valuable lessons learnt but it still will not deter me from activating a PLB if I think that I need to use it.
But the last thing that I would ever think from what happened is that we were lazy, incompetent,irresponsible or otherwise.
I actually agree with Tim Vollers suggestion of buffer times, that is the kind of feedback that I was hoping to get from making this post.
But it seems to be or I may be wrong..... but it appears that some members are virtually saying that unless you are about to die you should not activate a beacon.
Again, it is always easier to suggest or say things in hindsight but at the time I felt we made the right decision.
Thanks for everyone's feedback on this I hope that this has in some way given a positive contribution to the forum, and I am not going to shy away from negative feedback that is part and parcel of being part of any forum, but I hope people can be considerate and not let it go away as it did with Philip.
I am a member of the many different forums on many different areas of interest and there will always be certain members of every forum that think they know better than everyone but let's just use this as a learning and training experience for everyone rather than saying should of done this you were wrong and basically saying we were incompetant or lazy
If I have made any grammar or spelling mistakes I apologize I am actually using voice dictation to type this.
Cheers,
KB
P.S ~ yes we caught some nice fish but they were all in the cox's river above k creek and they were all about the 4 pound mark. I am actually going to make a 10 day trip back there this coming week hopefully it doesn't snow like the weather has forecasted for Sunday. I promise unless I am about to die that I will not activate a PLB.

[FatCanyoner]

What normally happens in these situations? Do you get to take your gear or are you made to leave it?

Often they make you leave it, especially where weight in the chopper is going to be an issue. It is amazing how small the weight margin is for these choppers.

I seem to recall a classic story a few years back of an idiot who got lost, set off his PLB, and got choppered out. They made him leave his pack behind. A week or two later another PLB goes off in the same area. When they arrived it was the same idiot. He'd gone back to recover his pack and managed to get lost again!

[GPSGuided]

I seem to recall a classic story a few years back of an idiot who got lost, set off his PLB, and got choppered out. They made him leave his pack behind. A week or two later another PLB goes off in the same area. When they arrived it was the same idiot. He'd gone back to recover his pack and managed to get lost again!

LOL!
Q.
1) Did they let him take his pack this time round?
2) Is this urban legend, or rather bush legend?

[wayno]

i've heard true stories like that, a boatie had to get rescued from his dingie, he went back to salvage it and the engine from under the sea water and went back out again in the boat and had to get rescued again, he hadnt serviced the engine and it broke down...
theres no helping some people

[Lizzy]

Thanks for posting Kanangraboyd. I hope this discussion doesn't turn you or others off posting about PLB activations/ rescue situations. I think it is a good learning experience for everyone to think about what what we would do in a similar situation. Alot of thought will go into buffer times and I'm sure many people will ensure they look for alternate exit strategies etc etc. None of us like to see wasted resources and I'm pretty sure most people on this forum would think setting off the beacon is a pretty big deal and not take it too lightly. We all need to remember that until we are in a particular situation we never really know what we will do & no two circumstances will be identical. It is all to easy to judge from our computers. I am glad you are both safe and well and am sure you have learnt some lessons as have many of us on the forum.
Cheers
Lizzy

[wayno]

i dont think dave noble was having a go. looks to me like he was just filling you in on the layout of the area for future reference
you did what you thought best at the time, nothing wrong with that, you wanted to stop an unecessary widepread SAR, nothing wrong with that, you're analysing the situation for future reference to make a more informed choice, and thats great, more people should think like you do...
we can all sit and judge in our armchairs all nice and cosy and thinking clearly , but when you're johny on the spot and have to make a decision based on the facts as you believe them at the time its a different scenario...
maybe you could have done things differently, but people do worse things...
dont beat yourself up. its been a good learning experience, SAR will be happy with that...

[Strider]

You made it home safe. That is all that really matters here.

[bernieq]

Well, FWIW, I think you took appropriate action.

Preceded by appropriate planning, you reasonably expected the water to drop by Friday so didn’t attempt to exit via an unfamiliar route.

Having come to Friday, what choices?
1. Activate PLB : no personal risk, short search – less impact on resources.
2. Do nothing : no personal risk, longer search – bigger impact on resources.
3. Attempt to cross the river : high personal risk, probable longer search – potentially very large impact on resources.
4. Exit via unfamiliar route : moderate personal risk, longer search - bigger impact on resources.

Thanks for posting the story – I do think the discussion is (mostly) considered. If you have any interaction with AMSA, please let us know.