Graffiti in a National Park (by a bushwalking club!)

[Snowzone]

Good response from the Uni.
Perhaps as well as cleaning off their own graffiti they may wish to spend a little more time cleaning up all the other graffiti in the area that lead them to believe this was acceptable behaviour.

[FatCanyoner]

And now that have written to NPWS, CCing me in, to extend the apology. They definitely seem to be treating the issue appropriately and looking to prevent it occurring again.

From the Uni's Events & Student Clubs Coordinator:

I am writing in regards to Tim’s email below in reference to the UWS Bushwalking Club walk out to Pindar Cave in Brisbane Water National Park on Sunday . I am the Coordinator of UWS Student Clubs and Groups.

I saw the face book posts Tim was referring to early this morning and also responded to a similar email to below that Tim sent to me this morning. The issues raised are of concern and have not been taken lightly. I assured Tim that I would follow up on the incident.

I spoke to our Bushwalking Club president this morning, giving him the opportunity to explain to me the graffiti that had been scrawled in the cave. His explanation was at the time, he truly believed that nothing wrong had occurred as the cave is littered with graffiti and it was written in charcoal which was as a natural substance that would wash off.

After seeing Tim’s posts and also after talking to me, he genuinely agreed that what he did was foolish, and without thinking. He has assured me that he will return to the site this Friday and remove the writing and that it would never happen again.

Our Bushwalking Club is one of our more active Clubs at UWS that take pride in the beauty of National Parks and truly appreciate the natural diversity on offer, especially so close to Sydney in many instances. Customarily, our group also collects any rubbish found along the tracks on all walks and removes it from the Parks, to ensure that the Parks stay pristine for future visitors.

I have no doubt that this was a one off incident and will not happen again. I will also address the Bushwalking Club in regards to the importance of the motto “Take nothing but photos & leave nothing but Footprints”. The Bushwalkers Code of Ethics will also be distributed to the group.

I think a valuable lesson has been learnt, and I hope our Bushwalking Club can continue to explore the many stunning National Parks that NSW has to offer with an enhanced awareness of human impact on the natural environment.

If there are any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me.

[perfectlydark]

Well done to the uni for the quick action. Good work on reporting the matter to the appropriate people as well. Shame the initial response was so hopeless but looks like it will end well

[Ent]

Well done FC and co. Proves with persistence the right outcome can result. Most clubs are excellent but occasionally strange ideas can take root. Sure charcoal might wash away as toilet paper breaks down over time but best not to do the wrong thing first up.

Cheers

[GPSGuided]

Well done to the uni for the quick action. Good work on reporting the matter to the appropriate people as well. Shame the initial response was so hopeless but looks like it will end well

It's understandable as the first response was that of a student involved in the deed. This also highlights the importance of presenting a case in a proper format and to an appropriate officer.

[Wollemi]

On reading the OP, I emailed UWS expressing my disappointment.

~~~~

So what's the approved method of removing charcoal from sandstone? I suspect smearing with a wetted rag will be the outcome.

[Lindsay]

A disappointing tale with a good outcome. Well done FC and team for taking the time and effort to ensure that action was taken.

[forest]

Great to see some action taken. Some clubs have me completely at odds.

I've just got back to Alice Springs straight from the Larapinta.

There was a group of five out there from a sunshine coast walking Club having a nice little bon fire each night. ....... in an area covered in no open fire signs.
These same turkeys complained about the lack of toilets in a few campsites due to environmental reasons. ..... but they were fine about open fires and leaving fire scars and little rock rings at each campsite.
I have there names (from the trail logbook) and a photo of them with a nice blaze going on Brinkleys Bluff and intend to forward all details onto the NT NPWS Rangers.

You just expect a club to know better but clearly some individuals within them do not.

[Strider]

On reading the OP, I emailed UWS expressing my disappointment.

~~~~

So what's the approved method of removing charcoal from sandstone? I suspect smearing with a wetted rag will be the outcome.

Hopefully not the same method most local Council's seem to employ - a thick coat of white paint!

[maddog]

A little charcoal scribble on a rock face (or even a rock overhang with a walking trail carved into it) is unsightly, but vandalism it is not. Charcoal scribblings such as these are removed by a minimum of weathering, if not by those who take offence. Do we also consider adding to a celebratory rock cairn, or attaching biodegradable marking tape to a tree, to be criminal vandalism?

While sensitive souls readily object to minor indiscretions, others just carry on with their business. Some delight in indecent exposure (however unattractive to behold), and a few take offence. But like the reasonable man, the law does not concern itself with trifles.

Cheers

[Snowzone]

Great to see some action taken. Some clubs have me completely at odds.

I've just got back to Alice Springs straight from the Larapinta.

There was a group of five out there from a sunshine coast walking Club having a nice little bon fire each night. ....... in an area covered in no open fire signs.
These same turkeys complained about the lack of toilets in a few campsites due to environmental reasons. ..... but they were fine about open fires and leaving fire scars and little rock rings at each campsite.
I have there names (from the trail logbook) and a photo of them with a nice blaze going on Brinkleys Bluff and intend to forward all details onto the NT NPWS Rangers.

You just expect a club to know better but clearly some individuals within them do not.

Forest I did the Larapinta trail in 2008 and we also crossed paths with some walkers from a Sunshine Coast club also having camp fires each night regardless of being told that it was a fuel stove only walk. We reported the matter to the local ranger on return but obviously the culture in this club remains the same. These rules apply for a good reason and if we were to all flaunt the rules and have fires there would not be any natural habitat left.
Likewise maddog if we were to all add our graffiti to rock walls it would be extremely unsightly and ugly and I for one would be extremely saddened seeing it.

[ferozious]

I agree that it wasn't the right thing to do.

Looking at it objectively though, someone could raise the same argument about slings left around trees and bolts left on rocks in canyons. Also, someone could claim that aboriginals were a bunch of vandals.
I'm not trying to argue against the fact that it was wrong to do this, however I can understand why different people might not understand the importance of keeping these areas pristine.

I don't think it is appropriate to jump into conclusions that this guy is a $&#^# and a bit of a *%&#&@ (not to mention $*@#&%$). These people simply need to be re-informed in a non-aggressive manner. As the lady from UWS pointed out, the walk leader is an intelligent person, not just a *$*@#%. He's probably a nice guy.

[Strider]

Also, someone could claim that aboriginals were a bunch of vandals.

Is it vandalism if you own it?

[stepbystep]

Also, someone could claim that aboriginals were a bunch of vandals.

Is it vandalism if you own it?

2 insane discussion points.

Firstly aboriginal culture didn't have a concept of ownership, they were simply part of the country, they were in fact owned by the land.

Vandals haha. They didn't build churches or art galleries or roads or cities, or letterboxes They did however have places that they expressed themselves spiritually, or artistically where they left messages or signs...

This case has no correlation, hopefully some education will put them on the right track, as for mad/moon-dogs attitude, perhaps they're too old for education?

[FatCanyoner]

Looking at it objectively though, someone could raise the same argument about slings left around trees and bolts left on rocks in canyons.

I do make that argument about bolts. In Australian conditions I have never come across a situation that required bolting. Slings can be removed simply, and leave nothing behind, but even they should be placed sparingly. I remove excess / unnecessary slings on many of my trips. Add to that issues like rock wear from poorly chosen anchors etc, and there are a lot of ways canyoning can damage the environment when done badly. That's why we have some vigorous ethics arguments in the canyoning community! I can pretty much count on one hand the number of new slings I've installed, including on exploratory trips. And I can assure you my bolt number is, and will remain, zero.

I don't think it is appropriate to jump into conclusions that this guy is a $&#^# and a bit of a *%&#&@ (not to mention $*@#&%$). These people simply need to be re-informed in a non-aggressive manner. As the lady from UWS pointed out, the walk leader is an intelligent person, not just a *$*@#%. He's probably a nice guy.

I'm not sure if I made it clear, but my initial response did not assume this. I simply replied in their facebook group that graffiti in the bush, whether done with charcoal or paint, is not acceptable. I then shared a copy of the Bushwalkers Code of Ethics with them, and encouraged them to familiarise themselves with it. It was only when he responded by saying they had done nothing wrong that I escalated it.

Also, someone could claim that aboriginals were a bunch of vandals.

Is it vandalism if you own it?

Spot on Strider.

The other thing to remember about our National Parks is not only do we all own them, but our kids, grandkids, great-grandkids etc also own them. Our actions should always be taken in a way that accepts these places are shared, and ensures they are equally pristine for their future owners. Anything else is just arrogant selfishness.

[Pteropus]

Firstly aboriginal culture didn't have a concept of ownership, they were simply part of the country, they were in fact owned by the land.

I know this is off topic, but I feel it needs to be pointed out that indigenous ‘ownership’ is quite a complex issue. It is a myth that has been perpetuated since early European settlement that indigenous people had no concept of ownership. It is easier to take land from someone who doesn’t own it (or terra nullius – land belonging to no one). They certainly did own land, hence Mabo, native title etc. Anyway, just thought it should be pointed out. Back to the discussion on vandalism...

[PeterJ]

The charcoal marking does not add to the appeal of the rock face, a little childish perhaps, but no worse than leaving a few footprints.

I tend to agree with the response provided by the walk leader - no real harm was done.

Well there ya go, they really do exist...

One of these days I am sure I will find something to disagree with you on, SBS, but certainly not on this.


Peter

[stepbystep]

Firstly aboriginal culture didn't have a concept of ownership, they were simply part of the country, they were in fact owned by the land.

I know this is off topic, but I feel it needs to be pointed out that indigenous ‘ownership’ is quite a complex issue. It is a myth that has been perpetuated since early European settlement that indigenous people had no concept of ownership. It is easier to take land from someone who doesn’t own it (or terra nullius – land belonging to no one). They certainly did own land, hence Mabo, native title etc. Anyway, just thought it should be pointed out. Back to the discussion on vandalism...

Ah I was coming from a different angle, pre 'us' and our concept of needing to 'own' land in order to have a connection with it. Mabo etc was an awesome thing because there was no other way for recognition to be significant in the current cultural landscape, We have much to learn, concepts of sharing etc. Can't half tell you have a scientific mind Pteropus

[stepbystep]

The charcoal marking does not add to the appeal of the rock face, a little childish perhaps, but no worse than leaving a few footprints.

I tend to agree with the response provided by the walk leader - no real harm was done.

Well there ya go, they really do exist...

One of these days I am sure I will find something to disagree with you on, SBS, but certainly not on this.


Peter

Haha thanks Peter. I'm sure I'll find something!

Good to see you got up Slatters, I think we went the same way..!!

[FatCanyoner]

as for mad/moon-dogs attitude, perhaps they're too old for education?

You know what they say, you can't teach an old (mad/moon) dog new tricks!

[maddog]

as for mad/moon-dogs attitude, perhaps they're too old for education?

You know what they say, you can't teach an old (mad/moon) dog new tricks!

If is what you call education, they would certainly need to be caught young. If the student had developed any sense or perspective it would be to late.

[Moondog55]

Never said it was right or that I disagreed but this is simply a storm in a tea cup when there are far more important issues to raise ones blood pressure with and that was the point of my post. For 40 years I have wondered who "Sergeant Betty" was and how she managed to inscribe her name on that beam in Ropers hut

[GPSGuided]

Also, someone could claim that aboriginals were a bunch of vandals.

Is it vandalism if you own it?

Not quite. As an example, we own our houses but we need council approval for any significant changes to the character of our property. So ownership is but one consideration while societal opinions also play a significant part. Here, the general consensus is that we don't want nor accept graffiti, so it goes...

[maddog]

Here, the general consensus is that we don't want nor accept graffiti, so it goes...

But before a charcoal scribble qualifies as graffiti, the law would need to change. To qualify, the scribbling must be made with a marker that is not readily removable with a bit of water or detergent.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... oa1988189/

[davidm]

I think it's a thoughtless action made 10 times worse due to the fact that it's done by a recognized bushwalking club, which should know better, and should be held to a higher standard than your average joe.

[FatCanyoner]

I think it's a thoughtless action made 10 times worse due to the fact that it's done by a recognized bushwalking club, which should know better, and should be held to a higher standard than your average joe.

Absolutely. As bushwalking clubs or even active bushwalkers we have an obligation to lead by example. People see how we act, and that guides their judgement about what kind of actions are right and wrong. It's one of the reasons I never burn any rubbish (not even paper / cardboard) on a campfire. A lot of people don't realise what packets contain foil / plastic, so if they see me throwing things on they'll do the same. Easier just to go for the best form of behaviour that leaves things unambiguous for less experienced walkers.

[GPSGuided]

But before a charcoal scribble qualifies as graffiti, the law would need to change. To qualify, the scribbling must be made with a marker that is not readily removable with a bit of water or detergent.

The misdeed here is not limited to graffiti. Trying to absolve an obvious responsibility through legal loopholes is pathetic.

[perfectlydark]

As above leading by example is the key. Say a bunch of casual amatures head out, see the markings (and believing it acceptable) make their own. Then more do the same. Pretty quickly youll have a cave that looks like those restaurants with writing all over the walls. Fine while your having dinner with friends, but for a lot of us going out on walks is to get away from signs of civilization, not to see "I was here"

[maddog]

No need for a loophole. Leaving a charcoal mark on a rock is, quite simply, legal. Consensus amongst the righteous does not determine the rules by which others live, and I hope it never will.

Setting an example to those unschooled in bushwalkers etiquette, is admirable, but the way in which this lesson is being delivered is not. Bullying never is. What a minor misdemeanor, for such a reaction. A little charcoal mark on a rock.

Set your sights higher, and find an issue more worthy.

Cheers

[Hallu]

You don't seem to understand the problem. A kid doing a doodle with charcoal on a rock isn't a crime in itself. What is preposterous is seeing this behavior encouraged by a bushwalking club and posted on their Facebook page as a mark of pride. This is dangerous as it could motivate further writings in National Parks, making this ok because everybody does it, even bushwalking club members... I hope you can see the problem now. If you still can't, then at least stop insinuating that we're "self righteous" and "bullies".