Snake bites

[under10kg]

I saw this site the other day and realised what I carry for snake bite is pretty useless.
I was caring one elestic bandage.

Quoting
The crepe bandages were essentially useless. Even with two of the heavier elastic bandages, it was impossible to wrap higher than just above the knee.

Does anyone carry one of these?

http://bsar.org/setopress

[Gippsmick]

No, but I do carry at least two wide elastic crepe banadages to get covered over a bite and most of the limb. Reading this I'd now consider adding a third or replacing with a setropress. Will have to do the maths on weight and balance with the risk.

[photohiker]

Thanks under10kg

Interesting stuff. I've ordered a couple of setopress for the first aid kit.

[MartyGwynne]

Yes I now have two in my kit as they are a big improvement from my older crepe bandages I used to carry. They even have the fancy rectangle which goes square when you have the correct tension/pressure. Even for those who wish to lighten our packs they are lighter for the same length of bandage.

[under10kg]

Any idea of the weight?

[Miyata610]

Any idea of the weight?

59g

[sambar358]

For a walker (or a deer hunter like me) carrrying a couple of pressure bandages for treating a snake bit is just the start really.....then what ? On a day hunt I may be up to 8k's from the truck and way-off in some remote country somewhere....I get grabbed on the arm or leg by a snake, find and treat the bite site by using my compression badages correctly so what's my next move ? I know that it'll be too dangerous to walk-out and that I need to stay still and prevent the likelyhood of the poison entering my vital organs. An interesting situation....my wife knows where I am in general terms but won't hit the panic button for 24 hours after I'm due home as per our normal arrangements. So I'm in a bit of strife.....and so could anyone out in the bush with a potentially lethal snake bite....even though it's been treated adequately with the compression bandages. I'll add that I have been bitten twice by snakes while hunting....a big brown on my thigh and hit below the knee by a medium-sized tiger....luckily in both instances I was not envenomated so consider myself pretty lucky here !

Time to activate my GME PLB (personal locator beacon) which I've had for a few years and always carry in my daypack or in my kit when I'm off solo backpack hunting. This is a last-resort device of course for life threatening situations....serious injuries that leave you immobile and incapable of dealing with a walk-out situation yourself or our potentially lethan snake bite scenario. My PLB is linked to a world-wide satellite system and will give an accurate GPS location with an accuracy of 10 meters....it is a distress call that I know will be responded to quickly and by authorities equipped to locate me and treat my injuries or address my emergency situation. A friend of mine recently had a serious fall while walking in the Kosi Park alone....he was quite badly injured and could not walk....so he activated his GME PLB and had a rescue helicopter from Canberra hovering over him inside an hour ! He was winched out of the bush and treated by a paramedic in the chopper on the way to the nearest hospital....his PLB was the best $500 he has ever spent he now reckons !

So I wouldn't worry too much about the weight of a couple of pressure bandages in your pack to treat snake bite.....that's the least of your conderns really.....once you treat the bite you are still in some serious strife and if you are alone & have no mobile phone coverage who's going to help you ? Many deer hunters are embracing personal locator beacons for absolute last-resort safety matters.....and at around 500g or so they are a very important bit of kit to consider for anyone doing bush these days IMO. Cheers

sambar358

[Moondog55]

Nice info, thanx muchly.
I think I'll get a couple to replace my 100mm Ace bandages ( which I knew were marginal but the 150mm were no available at the time)

[Gusto]

I've used Setopress in training. They are much better than elastic compression bandages. They are thinner than compression bandages, so they they probably take up less space then you may expect/ I wanted to buy one at the time but forgot. This has reminded me that I should still get some.

The other thing to remember is that if you run out of bandages then you can always cut a stretchy thermal top in a spiral to make a bandage.

[peregrinator]

....luckily in both instances I was not envenomated so consider myself pretty lucky here ! sambar358

Dear Sambar

You were very lucky, but how did you know that you weren't envenomated? What does one look for?

[jackhinde]

pain etc then death...

[tasadam]

I would be treating any snake bite as serious and life threatening, and hitting the PLB as quick as I can get the bandages on. Then lie still, be calm, easier said than done I suspect.
A pretty rare event, so I think I'll forget about taking up that deer hunting I reckon - too dangerous! Bitten twice, stuff that...

[peregrinator]

[quote="tasadam"]I would be treating any snake bite as serious and life threatening, and hitting the PLB as quick as I can get the bandages on. Then lie still, be calm, easier said than done I suspect.

I'd also be thinking that any bite could be deadly. But if, as Sambar says, it's possible to detect that a bite was not envenomating, then there'd be no need to activate a PLB (saving thousands of dollars for a useless rescue) and calmness wold prevail instead of panic. I've searched to no avail about how such bites can be detected, so I'd love to know how it is done. Done solo, that is; I know that there a tests a medical practitioner can do, but I'm not one myself.

[sambar358]

Easy to tell that I was not envenomated.....no bite marks and neither hit was on bare skin ! The thigh strike was thwarted by some nice baggy trousers but he hung on for a few seconds before letting go.....don't step over logs without checking them out 1st. The lower leg hit by the Tiger was a quick strike and he hit my gaiters and then released....I stepped on that one and felt it squirm under by boot & when I stepped off it he hit me quickly and was a tad grumpy wanting to have another go ! I certainly checked both bite locations very carefully and would have done the pressure bandage thing if there was any sign of fang marks....these were both pre-PLB too so lucky I guess. As I hunt mostly in the winter snakes generally aren't much of an issue apart from the odd Copperhead out sunning now and again....both my hits were in the autumn on early-season hunts and it was likely both snakes were low on venom anyway by then....springtime is when you need to watch-out as they are just out of hibernation, hungry, grumpy and with venom tanks full to the brim ! It does get the heart rate up I'll admit....but 2 hits in 40 years isn't too bad.....I've had far more near-misses with idiots on the road than that ! Cheers

sambar358

[Mountain Rocket]

Thanks for the informative posts sambar!

[kbm63]

"lack of any bite / fang marks does not exclude envenomation" (Primary Clinical Care Manual (PCCM) 7th edition )
Just a reminder that no fang marks doesn't mean no envenomation, and conversely seeing fang marks don't necessarily mean that the person has been envenomated. I wouldn't want to take the risk....... Have seen socks wet from venom after snake fangs went through the side of elastic sided boots and into the socks (person not envenomated) and someone else who had no obvious "bite marks" but ended up quite sick after a good history of probable snakebite.

[corvus]

"lack of any bite / fang marks does not exclude envenomation" (Primary Clinical Care Manual (PCCM) 7th edition )
Just a reminder that no fang marks doesn't mean no envenomation, and conversely seeing fang marks don't necessarily mean that the person has been envenomated. I wouldn't want to take the risk....... Have seen socks wet from venom after snake fangs went through the side of elastic sided boots and into the socks (person not envenomated) and someone else who had no obvious "bite marks" but ended up quite sick after a good history of probable snakebite.

Just a dumb question ,if the skin is not penetrated how does the venom get into the lymphatic system
corvus

[Lindsay]

I suppose the bite may be too small to see, but venom may be injected? Also using pressure/immoblisation seems to be a uniquely Australian treatment. A quick google suggest this is appropriate for the elapid class of snake found in Australia but is not so good for the viper classes found elswhere.

[corvus]

I suppose the bite may be too small to see, but venom may be injected? Also using pressure/immoblisation seems to be a uniquely Australian treatment. A quick google suggest this is appropriate for the elapid class of snake found in Australia but is not so good for the viper classes found elswhere.

I may be wrong but I believe our snakes do not actually "inject " as other than really old ones the fangs are grooved ?
corvus

[mikethepike]

I may be wrong but I believe our snakes do not actually "inject " as other than really old ones the fangs are grooved ?
corvus

Someone please correct me if this is wrong, but I've read that it depends on the species, browns have grooved or open channel fangs while tigers have fangs like hypodermic syringe needles. Long pant and gators make sense when walking when snakes are about.

I get grabbed on the arm or leg by a snake, find and treat the bite site by using my compression badages correctly so what's my next move ?

I've always wondered about that myself but as sambar wrote, staying calm and still and activating the PLB is the only answer and especially if you are alone and in which circumstance, I suspect that trying to splint the bitten limb to immobilize it could very well be counter-productive. Any opinions on this?

[tasadam]

Also using pressure/immoblisation seems to be a uniquely Australian treatment. A quick google suggest this is appropriate for the elapid class of snake found in Australia but is not so good for the viper classes found elswhere.

Must remember that if I ever do any overseas walking...

I may be wrong but I believe our snakes do not actually "inject " as other than really old ones the fangs are grooved ?
corvus

Someone please correct me if this is wrong, but I've read that it depends on the species, browns have grooved or open channel fangs while tigers have fangs like hypodermic syringe needles. Long pant and gators make sense when walking when snakes are about.

I get grabbed on the arm or leg by a snake, find and treat the bite site by using my compression badages correctly so what's my next move ?

I've always wondered about that myself but as sambar wrote, staying calm and still and activating the PLB is the only answer and especially if you are alone and in which circumstance, I suspect that trying to splint the bitten limb to immobilize it could very well be counter-productive. Any opinions on this?

I recall that Tiger snakes have grooved fangs, though in an older snake the grooves can calcify effectively into a hypodermic equivalent.

This Topic is worth a look.
One quote from that topic -

"None of the Tasmanian snake species can truly inject poison, relying instead on it flowing down a groove in the fangs. However, in old snakes the groove overgrows forming a hollow tooth."

from

http://www.dpipwe.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/ ... Snakes.pdf

[Nuts]

The advantage with the setopress being that they give a guide to the correct pressure. Good for a bite where it's not a good idea to loosen the bandage once applied. Good for inexperienced though I would suggest practicing bandaging once taught from a good first aid course would achieve the same result (ie correct tension) (correct tension is important with all bandaging so it needs learning by experience at some stage)

I was looking around to replace our ACE bangdages a couple of years back. In the end we bought a variety of Coban(3m) style self adhesive bandages. I figured they were more useful as a general purpose/first aid bandage and they are much better than crepe. With these, as they are self adhesive (not sticky but like velcro glue) each wrap is held tight.

They can be found at 4" but I went for 2 & 3", more useful for the other first aid instances much more likely than snake bite.

As a bonus they were Much cheaper than Setopress (especially if you do use them a fair bit) (I think I saw some on ebay) and ours are Green
Mostly though, I am impressed by the ability to get a firm grip. Iv'e used them personally a couple of times and they excel for restricting movement (ankle/knee).

[Nuts]

This sort of thing, though I think ours are 4m long? (and you might not want 144..)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/144-Self-adh ... 35bdb7136c

[Overlandman]

When the topic of Snake bite comes up there are always the questions regarding grooved & hollow fangs, also envenomated & dry bites

Elapid Snakes, ie Tiger, Copperhead & White Lipped Whip Snakes in Tasmania & including Black, Brown, Broad Headed Snakes , Taipans on the mainland, all have rigid hollow fangs at the front of their upper jaw. The fangs are connected to ducts that lead to the venom glands. Although the fangs are effectively hollow like a hypordermic needle ,the hollow is formed by the in folding over an anterior groove as the fang develops. The fang is enclosed in a fleshy sheath. When the snake bites into a milking jar (for example) the venom is injected with pressure, When the snake bites it can control the amount of venom injected by the degree that the muscles contract around the venom glands. Some snakes when they bite, hold on, & chew, this chewing usually results in large amounts of venom being injected. All snakes have reserve fangs, as the main fangs can be broken during biting & eating, It is also important to know that there maybe only one fang mark found at the bite site, as the replacement fang has not moved into position. The fangs of dangerous Australian snakes are sharply pointed & quiet thin, Snake envenomation can occur although it maybe very dificult to see the fang marks on the skin with the naked eye.
In Tasmania, for example Tiger Snakes grow on average to 1 metre in length, the fangs are small, around 3 - 5 mm, A large specimen like a 6 ft Chappell Island Tiger Snake have a larger head, thus larger fang length around 7 - 10 mm also the venom glands will hold much more venom.
A large Tasmanian Tiger Snake 5 to 6ft in length would be 20 + years old

In my 32 years as a Herpetoligist I have not been bitten on the skin, I have been scratched by one fang after a Tiger Snake bit my leather glove with my finger in it, got all the symptoms but nothing happened (all in my head) & I been bitten on clothing and footwear, (not thongs).

This summer coming I will take a few members out to a spot that I visit, near Devonport so they can learn a bit more about Tasmanian Snakes
Regards Overlandman

[corvus]

G'day Overlandman,
Thanks for the information and look forward to the Summer trip especially if we can see Copperheads
corvus

[Overlandman]

Plenty of Copperheads out there Corvus,
Also I would like to add, once you are bitten & the bandage (s) is applied, DO NOT let anyone undo the bandage until you are in icu hooked up to all of the bells & whistles, and the Dr in charge has the antivenene ready to go. The Dr may still decide not to undo the bandage & continue to monitor your vital signs.
Regards Overlandman

[tasadam]

A large Tasmanian Tiger Snake 5 to 6ft in length would be 20 + years old

So THIS ONE was a great grand daddy then...

[MartyGwynne]

Just doing 1st aid course this week - run by Emergency nurse (the boss one) who has treated many snake bites over the years. She says when you bandage the limb to mark with a cross on the bandage where the bite was. They will pull/cut that bit of the bandage off and swab for venom. They will also run tests of your blood for the coagulant levels (high/low) to see if any envenomisation has taken place.
An anti-venom won't be administered unless you show signs and symptoms of a snake bite. It is only able to be used on the one person about two times in your life time. (as per what she said - she treated two bites in the last few weeks).
Symptoms are - Headache, Nausea/vomiting, abdominal/chest pain, drowsiness, blurred/double vision, breathing difficulties, cold pale skin. the "Bite" is normally a scratch made by one or two fangs (but can be up to 6) it is not often a pair of puncture marks.
the venom does not soak into the skin so don't wipe it off if there is anything on your skin - just bandage it and immobilise the limb. Call of immediate medical assistance (spot/PLB/Phone/send for help).
They symptoms may not appear for an hour or two so don't be too relaxed about a bite/strike.

Cheers
Marty.
PS happy walking amongst the serpents!!!!!:::::::

[wayno]

do most pharmacies stock the setopress bandages?
i'm totally ignorant about these bandages, never heard of them here in nz, so if i cant get them here before visiting aus it'd be good to find them there

[MartyGwynne]

Hi Wayno
You should be able to get the setopress bandages at most chemists, but not all chemists. Try shopping around a few and you should get some.
I ordered mine from my bushwalking club who put in a large group order, you may be able to get them online some where.

A quick look online and here was one which may do the trick for you.
http://www.homepharmacy.com.au/products ... uctID=4576