Legal Issues Regarding Organising Walks with Minors

[Son of a Beach]

(This topic has been split off from here. I hope this topic will empower people to walk together in whatever groups they want to, without having to worry about legal implications, and to also make sure all participants, and parents/guardians, are aware of the legal implications).

It's not entirely my business, as I won't be going on this walk, and I don't want to put a damper on things at all, but in these crazy times of legal red tape, I thought I'd remind you all of the new(ish) 3rd warning in the pink 'rules' section of this forum about walkers under the age of 18.

I sure hope this works out for you though. Sounds like a good trip. I'll probably just end up doing a day walk instead on Monday (a public holiday here).

[sthughes]

I'm happy to have you along with the right gear, and I'm only too happy to lend/share some if you need.

As for "Warning 3" - I have no idea - maybe I'll leave that to someone else with more experience in the area. I'm not organising this walk, or taking any responsibility for that matter. In scouts we had parent consent forms and stuff and of course Scouts Australia pay a fortune in liability insurance and training leaders so it was a whole other kettle of fish. I have no idea how it works with an online forumn. Can you be "just mates" with no responsibility (except the usual duty of care) with a minor For example when I was 18 I had friends who were 17 and I never considered myself responsible for them if we went somewhere.
Like I said - I have no idea on this legal issue - good point SOB

[Son of a Beach]

I have no idea how it works with an online forum

The main thing (from my perspective) is that walks organised using these forums, have no official relationship with the forums at all. So it is always (as you've said) just a bunch of mates. The forums is merely how the mates have met, and/or communicated about the walk.

So it's up to the individuals to decide how they deal with it. The warning is there simply to make sure that the people involved are aware of the possibilities.

If everyone (including the parents) are aware that it's just a bunch of mates, with no official club/organisation at all, and everyone is happy that nobody is taking legal responsibility, then I don't know what the implications would be if something went wrong, but it's up to all the individuals (including the parents) to decide if that's acceptable or not.

[corvus]

My suggestion is a letter from Whos_asking 99's parents exonerating us from any liability with the understanding that normal "mates" duty of care is our general attitude when strolling ,additionally he could bring in a sealed envelope a note of any medical condition allergies or medication needed only to be opened if required .
Additionally I believe that we need a consensus from "the BWT Strollers" that we can welcome young W_a99 on this walk and that the southern transport is happy with the arrangement , a final point I would be more comfortable if one of us had a phone conversation with his parents.
Sorry for all this W_a99 but we need to cover our butts in today's litigenous climate , I for one have walked with lots of young men over the years and enjoyed their company and enthusiasm.
corvus

[the_camera_poser]

What a spew I'm not able to make this one- I'm a teacher with a current Tassie registration, so could go along and make sure he got into mischief- I mean, stayed out of mischief........

My understanding is that you need to worry if you are working with kids, but a simple "ok" from his parents should be right.

I do know that one of the high schools I've been working at in this area actively encourages it's students to go on walks with the local bushwalking club- now I'm not sure how that goes for insurance and everything, but that's something to think about.

It's been MANY years since I was in practice, but maybe if Who's parents will sign a simple waiver, same as everyone else, it would do the trick. In me old lawyerin' days, that would do it, in most cases. But please understand- I never practiced in Tassie and know nothing in specific about the laws. The young gentleman's parent/guardian would have to sign it.

I would think that a simple signup sheet, passed around before starting, stating that everyone present was responsible for all damages or injuries occurring as a result of an act of God, nature or negligence on their part, and that all persons involved have signed the waiver indictating that they agree that the trip organisers and the owners and operators of the BWT website, who were not involved in the organisation or supervision of the activity occuring from (date) to (date), are in no way responsible for loss resulting on the activity. All persons fully assume the risk of all loss on the trip, and are in no way relying on the advice, expertise or guidance of anyone other than themselves for the duration of the trip. All walkers who have signed this waiver also are agreeing that they are of sufficient skill and fitness for the trip, and that they have sufficient equipment, and will in no way hold any other party to the trip responsible for loss due to poor preparation, planning or fitness.

NOW- that ought to do it, but don't come yelling at me if you get sued! (After all- you didn't pay me for my free advice, did you? )

[corvus]

Many thanks for that info t_c_p ,as an "old lawyerin' Type" can you pro bono ,draft a wee paper in simple legalese that would see us OK please.

[the_camera_poser]

OH D$@#@%#@%#%@^%#%#%@^ I just spent ages doing one, and the #$^%#@%@#^ computer ate it. BUGGER IT!

I'll have to do it again

[corvus]

And you a young person ,I thought that only happened to us old farts

[the_camera_poser]

Here 'tis..... and for goodness sake, make sure the Admin and owners of this site agree to it before using it, as it uses their name, even if only to absolve them of responsibility. And let me know if it doesn't make sense- it's been 8 years since I've spoken legalese....


All signatories acknowledge that this document is not the result of legal advice from a licenced legal practicioner, and is a memorandum of understanding between parties regarding responsibility for loss and injury.

This document shall serve as a memorandum of understanding between all persons who have signed the document regarding all responsibility for and liability resulting from a bushwalk and associated activities occuring on (DATES) in the general locale of (LOCATION.) (Hereinafter refered to as "the activity")

The signatories to this document acknowledge that they have the proper fitness level, skill, expertise and equipment for the activities described above, and that they have not relied on the advice or expertise of any person who has signed this document, on the organisers, owners or operators of Bushwalk Tasmania (a website), or the organisers of the above-described activity in ascertaining that they have the proper fitness level, skill, expertise and equipment for the activities described above. The signatories also acknowledge that they have fully and independantly ascertained the suitability of this activity, and will in no way seek to impose liability on the organisers or the organisers, owners or operators of Bushwalk Tasmania (a website) for acts of God, weather, fire, trail conditions or any representation of the organisers or the organisers, owners or operators of Bushwalk Tasmania (a website) that the signatory may have relied upon in making his or her decision to join the activity or conduct themselves in a certain way while engaged upon the activity. The signatories understand that participation in this event is the result of the personal decision of each signatory, and that they are fully and solely responsible for this decision. Furthermore, signatories understand and agree that no party directly involved in this activity, or the organisers, owners or operators of Bushwalk Tasmania (a website), shall be seen as responsible for any actions or inaction of third parties or any other person on who has signed this document, and that the organisers of this activity and the organisers, owners or operators of Bushwalk Tasmania (a website), are not responsible for the actions of any other person involved with the activity above described. All parties to this activity are responsible for their own insurance requirements.

Any person who is legally not allowed to sign contracts (minors, incompetents, etc.) must have this document signed by their legal guardian.

(All parties sign, and the organiser keeps the original. I suggest sending it out to everyone first to review, so there's no nasty surprises when they get to the meeting spot. FINALLY- I AM NOT A LAWYER IN TASMANIA OR IN AUSTRALIA, AND IN NO WAY INTEND FOR THIS TO CONSTITUTE LEGAL ADVICE. DON'T SUE ME IF YOU GET SUED- I'M POOR AND UNINSURED ANYHOW......)

[the_camera_poser]

And you a young person ,I thought that only happened to us old farts

Computers hate everyone over the age of 18.

[corvus]

t_c_p poo... crisrtium if that is a non legalese document how would we fare with a REAL one

[Son of a Beach]

Here 'tis..... and for goodness sake, make sure the Admin and owners of this site agree to it before using it, as it uses their name, even if only to absolve them of responsibility. And let me know if it doesn't make sense- it's been 8 years since I've spoken legalese....

I understand that it would be good to include some statement to specifically disconnect Bushwalk Tasmania''s owners/admins/etc from the activities, but I think that merely using the name does actually imply some connection. I think I would prefer if it didn't use the name 'Bushwalk Tasmania' specifically but rather some statement that referred to "any clubs, websites, or social groups which the participants may be connected with or which may have been used by the participants to communicate with each other (herein after referred to as 'third parties')" (or something similar). Would this be OK?

Sheesh, I've just spent the last three weeks trying to get my head around negotiating an 11 page contract for a personal/commercial deal I'm making... this statement looks short and simple in comparison.

[the_camera_poser]

I'd just drop the reference all together. I tried to write it in such a way as to cover any of those situations you hear about, where a person does something stupid and tries to sue everyone and their dog, without the need to specifically mention anyone. I'll redo it, it shouldn't need the mention of anyone specific, and not mentioning the site is probably the best idea.

I could make it 11 pages for you, if you were paying me $300/hour, but it probably wouldn't make a bit of difference. LOL

[the_camera_poser]

(Here's a second go........)

ALL BUSHWALKING IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS, AND YOU WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF IN CASE OF TROUBLE.

This document shall serve as a memorandum of understanding between all persons who have signed the document regarding all responsibility for and liability resulting from a bushwalk and associated activities occuring on (DATES) in the general locale of (LOCATION.) (Hereinafter refered to as "the activity")

By signing this document, the signatory acknowledges that the organisers of the activity have merely representated that the organisers are going to be engaging in the specified activity on the specified date and at the specified time, but have in no way sought to provide reliable information, expertise or leadership to any person engaging on the activity. All participants are responsible for themselves. All signatories acknowledge that this document is not the result of legal advice from a licenced legal practicioner, and is a memorandum of understanding between parties regarding responsibility for loss and injury.

The signatories to this document acknowledge that they have the proper fitness level, skill, expertise and equipment for the activities described above, and that they have not relied on the advice or expertise of any person who has signed this document, or the organisers of the above-described activity in ascertaining that they have the proper fitness level, skill, expertise and equipment for the activities described above. The signatories also acknowledge that they have fully, personally and independantly of the organisers ascertained the suitability of this activity, and will in no way seek to impose liability on the organisers for acts of God, weather, fire, trail conditions or any representation of the organisers that the signatory may have relied upon in making his or her decision to join the activity or conduct themselves in a certain way while engaged upon the activity. The decision to engage in the activity is solely the responsibility of the signatory. The signatories understand that participation in this event is the result of the personal decision of each signatory, and that they are fully and solely responsible for this decision. Furthermore, signatories understand and agree that no party directly involved in this activity shall be seen as responsible for any actions or inaction of third parties or any other person on who has signed this document, and that the organisers of this activity are not responsible for the actions of any other person involved with the activity above described. All parties to this activity are responsible for their own insurance requirements.

Any person who is legally not allowed to sign contracts (minors, incompetents, etc.) must have this document signed by their legal guardian.


NOTE: The changes should make extra sure no one can turn on BWT and say that they read about the walk on here, and someone said it would be fine in Spring, and they lost their toes to frostbite as a result of the advice they got on here. I'm still not sure what legal weight it would carry though. In the US it would be an effective waiver of liability against everything short of reckless endangerment or intentional acts of harm. I can't make it any more ironclad than that- unless there's some special "magic" wording you have to have in Tassie or Australia in general, that ought to do it. The biggest point is that people HAVE to acknowledge that they should know the dangers and they should have the gear before they start the walk, and they also acknowledge that failure in any way that could be blamed on poor advice, leadership, etc, is their fault. It wouldn't cover you if you got in a car wreck while driving a group of people, and had no insurance, or something like that. But if someone slips and hurts themselves or breaks a leg hopping on rocks, they shouldn't be able to blame you for it, as the organiser.

Having said that- just like the line from that movie War Games, with lawyers, as with nuclear weapons: "The only way to win is to not play."

[corvus]

Looks like we may be near getting it right wording wise thanks

[Whos_asking99]

hehe, i'm gonna be hated for this after all the trouble you guys went to ....

But it turns out I do have plans for that weekend, I just wasnt told about them...sorry

But on the upside at least I know know where I stand with legality bits and pieces for the next walk that I'm able to go on.

If I had of known it was going to come to a legal document, I wouldn't have even bothered asking, as I thought it would it would have applied as sthughes said, a simple "mates" trip. i honestly didn't think a document wouldn't have been needed for this, as BWT Tasmania isn't an official organization, without funding or a licensed outdoors company. But, I fully understand where you are all coming from, and signing and phone call shouldn't be a problem.
Gotta love that red tape right?

Camera poser, thanks for that document...is it finished or do you have some final bits and pieces to add to it?
When its finished, PM me (or just say so on the forum) and I will save a copy on the computer, so when the time comes, its there and all I have to do is read, and get my parents to sign it.

After that, or should I send it to? Son of a beach? Or whoevers organizing the walk?


Again I am really really sorry about all that, and very thankful for all the trouble everyone went to....

Aaron

[corvus]

No worries Aaron I am sorry that we need to protect ourselved this way and I look forward to meeting you on one of our other strolls.
corvus

[Whos_asking99]

No worries Aaron I am sorry that we need to protect ourselved this way and I look forward to meeting you on one of our other strolls.
corvus

Thanks;
Its all good...just one of the many pitfalls of being a minor.

[the_camera_poser]

Trust me Who's- it was no worry. It isn't just for minors, but for everyone to use. Anyhow, it's worth it if you are encouraged to bushwalk.

[flyfisher]

But it turns out I do have plans for that weekend, I just wasnt told about them...sorry

Hi Aaron, should your plans fall through, Iam the southern member of BWT strollers who usually travels north or wherever to these strolls and you are quite welcome to come along

Flyfisher

[Son of a Beach]

i honestly didn't think a document wouldn't have been needed for this, as BWT Tasmania isn't an official organization, without funding or a licensed outdoors company.

You're right, the walk actually has nothing to do with BWT (this is just a place where people can meet - it's like people meeting in the mall to organise a walk... you can't say that the City Council is involved in that walk). I merely raised the issue, because who-ever does end up going on the walks needs to make sure that they are responsible for themselves, and if minors are in their care, they need to understand their responsibilities there too (if there are any).

Gotta love that red tape right?

Yeah, sorry for the hassle - in this day and age, lawyers are the only ones who win, it seems.

or should I send it to? Son of a beach? Or whoevers organizing the walk?

No, like you had guessed earlier, it's nothing to do with me (unless I'm going on the walk, but then only as much as anyone else on the walk). It's between you and your parents as to who in the group you're going to trust to be responsible on the day(s). Perhaps everyone in the group should sign it, I think? That is, if your parents feel it is necessary.

Again I am really really sorry about all that, and very thankful for all the trouble everyone went to....

Aaron

It's been a useful exercise, and hopefully, all the pieces will be in place when the next opportunity arises.

[the_camera_poser]

Everyone signs it, and the organiser (who would be the one sued in the worst case scenario) hangs on to the original. Minors would need a legal guardian to sign, unless they are emancipated. It's got nothing to do with BWT, but exonerates BWT of blame for anything by specifically and firmly stating that walkers have personally checked it out first and etc, and haven't relied on anyone else in their decision.

[Whos_asking99]

Hi Aaron, should your plans fall through, Iam the southern member of BWT strollers who usually travels north or wherever to these strolls and you are quite welcome to come along

Flyfisher

Thanks FF, next trip that is organised that your going on, I might take that offer, if the offers still there.

After all the paperwork of course

[tas-man]

Everyone signs it, and the organiser (who would be the one sued in the worst case scenario) hangs on to the original. Minors would need a legal guardian to sign, unless they are emancipated. It's got nothing to do with BWT, but exonerates BWT of blame for anything by specifically and firmly stating that walkers have personally checked it out first and etc, and haven't relied on anyone else in their decision.

I am still catching up with the posts of the past few weeks so my comments are almost "after the event", but I am sure that the Risk Waiver documents for members, visitors, and minors (under18) that have been produced by the Tasmanian Federation of Bushwalking Clubs could be adapted to the use of any future BWT Strollers activities. The wording that the_camera_poser developed is in line with that which the FTBC has now issued as part of its Risk Management Guidelines for Tasmanian member clubs, the main difference being that liability is being removed from both the "Club" and its walking trip "Co-ordinator" for these activities which are defined as an activtity of a group of "peers" who are each fully responsible for their own decisions, actions, safety, equipment, etc. It is only on this basis now that the Clubs can obtain the insurance cover required by not-for-profit organisations incorporated in Tasmania. Under these guidelines, it is essential that any persons under 18 years of age have a waiver signed by a parent/guardian who is responsible for them. If a copy of this document may be of use in finalising such a form for BWT use, let me know who is putting it together and I will check if its OK to forward on a copy of these guidelines.

[corvus]

Gday tas-man,
I would really appreciate a copy because as an ex Scout leader I know that we will need the paperwork spot on JIC.

[the_camera_poser]

I would DEFINITELY use the FTBC form over mine- chances are they had a lawyer look at it here in Tassie- much safer than mine!

[Son of a Beach]

Once you get it, it may be worth revising it for the purposes of people here, and attaching it to a sticky topic in this forum for anyone who wishes to use it (if it doesn't breach any copyright).