Kosciuszko water quality

[Lophophaps]

Advice is sought about water quality in Kosciuszko National Park (KNP).

There seems to be general acceptance that water in KNP should be boiled or treated. Science to support this view is elusive. The Australian Institute of Alpine Studies http://www.aias.org.au/ declined to comment. Advice was sought from Environment NSW/ KNP staff, to no avail. The most recent science that I can locate is Noris et al from 1998 is somewhat dated. In any case, whilst there are references to this research, I have been unable to find an internet site that allows the report to be read.

Can someone please direct me to recent science that assesses water quality in KNP? TIA.

[WarrenH]

Kosci' water quality ... for human consumption? Knowing the state of play is an applied science, you have to go there.

Of course the institutions won't comment or supply data ... they don't keep up to date. You are embarrassing them by asking.

Try ringing ECOWISE, I've see these guys sampling and monitoring the rivers in the Northern Alps.

AND, don't overlook reading about the Hydatids Parasite and about the feral dogs, deer, cattle, brumbies, Llamas and pigs in the park. You might like to catch up on problems associated with Liver Fluke while you are at it and of course E. coli.

... and of course E.coli. I saw a guy last March, a day walker in the Northern Alps, wash his hands inside one of the new tanks at a hut, after going to the toilet and then he said, "This tank is full. National Parks should put a grate on this overflow to stop people putting their hands into the tanks." True. If you hang around the Alps for long enough you will eventually see all those things ... that you wish Wally World didn't do to water.

The thing to know about water quality in Kosci' is, rolling boil it for the full 8 minutes ... not for one second less.

Warren.

[Mark F]

You really need to forget seeking answers in the scientific literature. Nobody can monitor water quality on a continuous basis unless the source is captured before it is capable of being contaminated. NPWS etc are not going to say it's safe regardless of whether it is or not unless they actually treat it and control the distribution.

Warren is correct with the risks - nothing like walking upstream 50 metres and finding a dead wombat in the creek. Human contamination is often the worst because the baddies we leave behind are fully adapted to our physiology.

To be sure, treat all water - boiling, Steripen, filter etc. It is up to you to assess the risk and act appropriately.

Mark

[Lindsay]

According to some sources It's not necessary to keep water boiling beyond initial boiling point. As soon at it reaches the boil it is safe to drink.

[WarrenH]

"According to some sources," yes, according to some sources ... and according to other sources the simple short boiling of water can release toxins, like the toxins in Blue Green Algae for example, which are far more potent than cyanide.

The extended boiling can help to break down some toxins ... but some say that a rolling boil for 60 minutes is only just adequate to kill water born prion diseases.

Some also say that an extended rolling boil of 60 minutes still requires 10 drops of H2O2 per litre to render it safe from disease ... then the water must be refrigerated.

Some say when humans shipt upstream, no amount of filtering or boiling of water that's collected downstream, can induce them to drink the water ... I say that too.

There was a sewerage spill in Kosci' not too long ago that was declared safe after only 10 days ... do you reckon that you would drink that water after only 1 minute's boiling?

Warren.

[Mark F]

If I boiled for 60 minutes I would have boiled my billy dry! Plus think of the weight of fuel I would have to carry.

There are better methods than boiling to ensure water is safe to consume. A scan around www.backpackinglight.com will throw up a lot of discussion of the many methods of water purification and I am sure there are a couple of threads on this site as well.

In the end it comes down to risk and your ability to determine that risk. I do drink some water in KNP as I do in the Brindabellas and most mountain areas without treatment. At other locations in the same general areas I would only consider drinking treated water. I never treat my cooking water as it will be boiled. You also need a system to ensure you keep your drinking water separate from the container you use to collect untreated water and you should treat all containers at the end of each trip with a dose of bleach or such like.

My personal choice for sterilizing water is a Steripen but I carry a few Micro Pur tabs as backup. You need to research your needs and the issues in the areas you walk.

[WarrenH]

... I do drink some water in KNP as I do in the Brindabellas and most mountain areas without treatment ... You need to research your needs and the issues in the areas you walk.

Feral dogs are a problem here in these ranges. They leave the ranges and enter the grazing lands. Wild dogs, feral dogs and foxes are prolific contagious intermediate hosts for the hydatid parasite. A hydatid worm can carry a thousand eggs on its body and the hydatid eggs can stay viable on the ground for a few years and wash into streams or even be taken home on bits of equipment. I can think of nicer ways to go than from hydatids.

No longer is it mandatory to report outbreaks of Hydatids, which I find both odd and disturbing but I realise that it may takes up to 2 decades for cysts to be found and need surgery. The Greater Brindies and the Northern Alps, are virtually surrounded by sheep country and as you know, have lots of feral dogs. From the Clear Range to Wee Jasper and across to Tumut. I certainly agree, "You need to research your needs and the issues in the areas you walk."

Warren.

[north-north-west]

*shrug*
The only KNP water I've ever boiled is the stuff with which I cook. It's never made me sick.

[Lophophaps]

The idea is not to obtain current science, although recent science would be good. What I am after is any science that reports on water quality, trends, location, degree of contamination, if any, recommended treatments, and related topics. If sampling is not done to provide advice to users, among other purposes, what use is the sampling? Science is there to be reported and reviewed by peers and those affected by the information.

Without hard information, even if it is a bit dated, all that is left is conjecture and rumour. Legally it is hearsay and would be inadmissible as evidence. That maxim applies to most legal jurisdictions.

[Mark F]

The authorities that manage the resource are not going to give you that information unless they can fully control the resource. You made the point yourself; "Legally it is hearsay and would be inadmissible in court" - they don't want to take legal liability for water they have not treated and piped to its destination and I don't think that this is unreasonable. To accept legal liability for water quality they would have to monitor vast numbers of locations at high frequency and even that will not solve the problem of you drinking water that an animal died in a couple of hours before or a passing walker crapped near just up stream 30 minutes earlier. The ultimate answer you will get from any organisation is "treat all water" whether or not that is reasonable.

Apply a general rule of not drinking untreated water downstream from known camping sites or near high use tracks and roads or where there is evidence of animal activity. It is just common sense. If you are asking the question about water quality for academic purposes rather than as a potential consumer then perhaps you should do the research yourself as nobody else has published this information. Please remember that it is suspected that the majority of apparently water based disease experienced by walkers is due to bad personal hygiene and food handling rather than contaminated water.

[ninjapuppet]

I just came back from Kosciuszko yesterday and at some places near mt lee, the water there was so pure my steripen wouldn't work till I added abit of tap water to it. Then I didn't bother purifying any water till day 3 near the top of abbots peak and saw a lump of kangaroo crap by the stream and so boiled it again.
Takes 90 seconds and it's good insurance

[WarrenH]

Lo-pho', the advice you get off the web is exactly what you pay for.

May I thank the contributors to this thread on your behalf? ... because the water might be pure in Kosci' up high, but you appear to be totally full of it.

What do you actually want Sunshine? First you want the current science then you don't want to accept it. Then you want data then that's not good enough for you. Then you ask for references that you don't want to even check. Do you know what you actually want?

If it is scoring points that you're after, you are in the wrong catchment ... go and check the water for yourself Mate ... we do!!

Going under the snow, gets away from the flies. It is beautiful, like a glass cathedral ... I suggest that you try it if you haven't already.



"If sampling is not done to provide advice to users, among other purposes, what use is the sampling? " ... To make sure that word salads that are posted are freshly washed?



Warren.

[Mark F]

First off the document you cite is a report/consultancy NOT a paper in the reviewed scientific literature. Without having read the report mentioned by Lophophaps but seeing the listing of other papers attached to the report and the research interests of Professor Norris, I summise that the report is less likely to deal with pathogens in the water rather than issues such as turbidity, pH, temperature and flow regime which are factors that affect the presence and health of aquatic invertebrates and thus provide a measure of river health. Human health and river health are very different things! I don't think the report will give you the information sought.

Secondly sampling is exactly that. It is used to allow statistically useful inferences to be drawn - not to provide conclusive evidence that specific water is safe or unsafe on the day you choose to drink it.

[kanangra]

I have one of those Steripen things. I've never used it but as I'm heading into that area at the end of the year maybe I should. Can someone tell me how? I've discarded the instructions.

K.

[Maxxxie]

I have one of those Steripen things. I've never used it but as I'm heading into that area at the end of the year maybe I should. Can someone tell me how? I've discarded the instructions.

K.

A search on YouTube will provide many demonstrations on how to use it. Try this link.

Max

[Mark F]

I think the main problem people have when using a Steripen is remembering to press the button BEFORE they put it in the water. You have to wait a second or two until the green led starts flashing - then immerse it in the water ensuring the metal ovals are immersed. The instructions for you specific unit can be downloaded from www.steripen.com.

[Lophophaps]

As advised above, I am after science. At no stage did I say that I would not accept it. The internet has been checked as far as possible. I will accept criticism of my method but not my intention.

If as stated above the water has been checked then advice about the results of that checking would be appreciated.

The fact that Norris is a report/consultancy and not a paper in the reviewed scientific literature escaped me. Thank you for that information, and the rest in that paragraph. I am fully aware that such reports are unlikely to be conclusive, and are more like to reveal trends or probabilities at certain times.

[Tony]

Sadly Professor Richard Norris past away earlier this year, Richard was a very keen cyclist and a very active member of my Vets Cycling Club.

I have done a search using my universities search engines and could find anything later than 2000, but I did find some references to some researchers monitoring water quality for PWS.

Tony

[PiniPowPow]

Some information, drinking water for the ski resort villages in KNP is sourced from local streams. Usually the only treatment done to this water is UV.

[rcaffin]

In general, up high, we don't normally treat the water.

But there are exceptions! Anywhere near or below Whites River Hut is off-limits for us. Known high Giardia risk there. Too many careless walkers and skiers there. Mind you, the old loo there was greatly to blame: I wasn't game to stand on the floor! Being near other highly frequented huts would also be a warning signal for us.

Cheers

[eggs]

Did a 3 day circuit around the Main Range last week.
I only took water from 2 places very high up.
One on the side of Mt Twynam running strongly off an ice sheet - and I drank some of that untreated, and the 2nd near the final ascent of Mt Townsend.
There was an extensive area of soaks at this second spot and I went further afield to try and find some running water, but it was not a strong flow.
I boiled all of this that I used, but not for very long.
The next day the stomach was quite unsettled. May have been coincidence, but when I mentioned it to a couple of guys who seem to frequent the area, they said they treat all the water wherever it comes from.
He used a ceramic pump filter and suggested I get one.

[johnat]

Just back from a couple of days in the KNP. We walked Guthega to Twynam, camped overnight on the "flats" - which really were more like a swamp - and walked around Blue lake and back to Guthega next day.

Took plenty of our own (home tank) water with us, but used local sources at the Northern side of Twynam for cooking. No dramas yet (we were there Wed 28th Dec,11) from consuming this water. We also treated a litre with tablets, and used it for drinking as is. The stream was flowing quite strongly, and seemed to be coming from under a largish snow patch, so I think it would be OK.

I am fairly certain that, drinking tank water as we do ALL the time in preference to town reticulated (and chemically treated) supply, my gut can cope with a bit more uncertainty in the purity of the water than it might have been able to had I only ever used bottled/treated water. What I guess I'm saying is that we (as a society) have purified our food so much that we do not have the ability to withstand a bit of impurity any more.

Anyway, the walk up to Kosi summit was so crowded that we got there (saw the view and then walked back down again to avoid sharing the smallish summit area with around 200 others! ) I would NOT have been interested in using any of the water from streams near the walkway for ANY purpose other than looking at!

[north-north-west]

Did a 3 day circuit around the Main Range last week.
I only took water from 2 places very high up.
One on the side of Mt Twynam running strongly off an ice sheet - and I drank some of that untreated, and the 2nd near the final ascent of Mt Townsend.
There was an extensive area of soaks at this second spot and I went further afield to try and find some running water, but it was not a strong flow.
I boiled all of this that I used, but not for very long.
The next day the stomach was quite unsettled. May have been coincidence, but when I mentioned it to a couple of guys who seem to frequent the area, they said they treat all the water wherever it comes from.
He used a ceramic pump filter and suggested I get one.

I drank from that same source (I think) when I camped at Townsend over the break, and it didn't give me any trouble. None of the water did, and I don't bother with any form of treatment.
Personal susceptibility is a big factor in all this.

I would not, however, drink from the lower sections of Wilkinson's, nor the creek that runs down the north side of Sentinel Spur, after the massive crowds I saw camped there. *shudder*

[Lophophaps]

I did an eight day trip in KNP, Jagungal and Main Range. I was careful to use water that was high and/or seemed good, and did not boil or treat the water. No problems. Sourcing water lower or close to huts may well be ill-advised. The crowds on the Main Range tracks were unbelievable.

[mikethepike]

I did an eight day trip in KNP, Jagungal and Main Range. I was careful to use water that was high and/or seemed good, and did not boil or treat the water. No problems. Sourcing water lower or close to huts may well be ill-advised. The crowds on the Main Range tracks were unbelievable.

We've just come back from the Main Range and my experience agrees with what you say Lotho. So in a way you've answered your own question about the need to treat the water. We did treat water -betadine I think - at two camps where the water was barely flowing and as far as I could tell, it had no chemical taste . One of the party has twice been struck down with a water sourced gut wog -once in the W Arthurs and again in the southern Flinders and there was no way he could be enticed to drink untreated water and he's no wimp - eg world champion rogainer in Vets. but 1-2 days sick and a struggle walking out in weakened state is something he doesn't want to ever repeat.

KNP advice is to purify all water if you want to be on the safe side but many of us will use our judgement concerning the collection site. I decided never to go bush again without something to treat water, just in case. My fuel supply is never adequate for the required boil time.

[johnat]

My fuel supply is never adequate for the required boil time.

This is the absolute truth! If you carry enough fuel, on a planned 5 day walk, to boil ALL water 9 minutes before drinking (and then having to wait for it to cool before tipping it into bottles/bladders) you have not enough food/shelter for the trip!

[walkinTas]

I carry one aluminum 1 litre bottle specifically for this purpose. I boil a litre of water, tip it into the bottle and leave it outside overnight to get cold. (On really cold nights I sometime use it as a hot water bottle). I boil the second litre and leave it in the pot to get cold. In the morning I tip it into my second water bottle (or the bladder if I'm carrying it). Of course, I don't always boil water and don't always need to, but can if I want/need to.

[Lophophaps]

I asked AIAS ([email protected]) "Advice is sought about water quality in Kosciuszko National Park. There is general acceptance in some quarters that water quality in KNP is poor, and that water should be boiled or treated. This is especially so at alpine lakes, particularly Albina, which for many years had the run-off from the hut. Predictably, high-use areas such as huts and their immediate riparian zones are also viewed as suspect.

It is unclear if this view of the water quality is based on anecdotal observations, an attempt to err on the side of caution, or science. The most recent science that I can locate is Norris et al from 1998 is somewhat dated. Can you please advise me if there is more current research about water in KNP, and if so, direct me to it? Also, is there anything on alpine Victoria water quality?"

AIAS recently replied " I would not be at all concerned about run off from the hut at Lake Albina. This hut was closed in 1983 and any residual pollution would by now have been well-diluted. As Norris et al. 1998 post-dates this by some years it is probably a good reflection of water quality as there has been nothing of any great detail published since."

So it seems that there is no current science about KNP water quality. A reasonable inference is that advice to treat water is based on anecdotal observations, an attempt to err on the side of caution, or to pre-empt litigation should there be an adverse event due to what appears to be poor water quality. NSW NPWS did not reply.

I asked Parks Victoria about water quality in alpine Victoria. PV said to look at <http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/data/assets/pdf_file/0003/514236/Parks-Victoria-SDW-Annual-Report-2010-11.pdf> and the Department of Health website at <http://www.health.vic.gov.au/> . PV said "Areas that request you treat the water first have not been tested and therefore cannot be approved as safe drinking water".
Like KNP, it seems that there is no current comprehensive research in water qualty in alpine Victoria. The advice regarding treating alpine water in Victoria is similar if not identical to that in KNP.

Provided water is taken from areas with a higher probability of being of good quality, such as high and away from huts and popular spots, there appears to be no reason to treat water to make it potable. This conclusion may apply to bush areas where land managers and others advise to treat water. There is no science, just caution.

[WarrenH]

Provided water is taken from areas with a higher probability of being of good quality, such as high and away from huts and popular spots, there appears to be no reason to treat water to make it potable. This conclusion may apply to bush areas where land managers and others advise to treat water.

Do you spend much time camping out in the mountains, perhaps listening to the Wild Dogs and feral dogs at night ... and wondering where the next Hydatids infestation might be occurring? The dogs can be very noisy during March and April when they have pups around and when they are again pairing up ... http://www.australianalps.environment.g ... -dogs.html

An Australian Alpine Dingo, Victorian High Country. That wasn't mud or dirt on its face ... it was dried blood. It could blood from wildlife ... or livestock?




Hydatids is a largely ignored problem in Australia, your comment adds more weight to that fact. The disease kills people, livestock and wildlife. The disease is most common in the sheep-farming areas of New South Wales, the Australian Capital Territory, Victoria, southwest Western Australia and eastern Queensland. Wild Dogs and feral dogs eat what ever they can find ... next time you hear a dog in the mountains howl, think twice before you consider that "there appears to be no reason to treat water to make it potable."

Warren.