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Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jul, 2015 11:35 pm
by Juudbruinsma
booked myself and my partner in today to do the Overland track in December, exciting!

I've got a question re my sleeping bag though, got the S2S 2D nano shell MC II (comfort 7C, lower limit 2C, Down: 850+ Loft 90/10 Goose Down), As for my sleeping mat I've got the Exped UL Down 7. I get cold quite quickly, although this sleeping system (and thermals) saw me through some frosty nights in the outback recently (around 0C), no wind or rain though. For the OL track I thought about getting a bag liner for some additional warmth. Would this be suffucient, or would you recommend me looking for a warmer sleeping bag?

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2015 11:49 am
by DanShell
It is very much a personal thing (sleeping warmth) but you may well get below zero temperatures even in December.
It sounds like you coped ok at zero degree's so perhaps a slight boost in your system would be enough for you. It wouldn't for me.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2015 4:46 pm
by wayno
depends how well the temp rating of the bag relates to how warm you really are in the bag in the real world. those ratings are an average and people can vary a lot as to how warm they are or arent in a given bag.

Also depends how often you're going to need a sleeping bag at those temps, if seldom then take more clothes, they are more utilitarian than a liner. if you're going to need a warm bag often enough then consider a warmer bag

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2015 5:29 pm
by Strider
Personally, I would upgrade to a warmer bag. You don't want to find out on Day 3 that your current system isn't up to the task.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2015 5:56 pm
by Travis22
Like Dan and Wayne mention it really comes down to the individual.

I find even the 'comfort' ratings can be a little optomistic for myself. ie. Your 7deg sleeping bag would likely suit me down to say 10degrees before i start feeling a little cold.

If your comfortable in it down to zero then id say your a fairly warm sleeper.

That said i still think your bag isnt ideal for what you can experience on the OLT, id suggest a bag with a comfort rating of Zero again on the assumption that your a warm sleeper. Myself ill be taking a 'comfort rated' -8 bag with the view id rather never need zip it up fully then spend night after night cold out there.

If you are investing in nice down sleeping bags then a bag liner is a good idea regardless as it will keep the bag cleaner and the down's ability to keep you warm before needing washing / rejuvenating.

Your sleeping mat will certainly help, and in my case perhaps if i had a higher R value matt i could get away with a lesser rated bag. Your tent is also going to play a roll in how warm or cold you are overnight. If your in a double wall 4 season tent then you would get away with a lesser rated bag over a single wall or one with a mesh inner.

Travis.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2015 7:01 pm
by Juudbruinsma
Thanks for the quick replies - they basically confirm what I thought: I might have to start looking for a higher rated sleeping bag.... (Maybe now is a good time to start play the lotto ;-))

There were a couple of nights in the outback where I was still pretty cold and not quite comfortable (with two layers of thermals, and as mentioned no wind or rain)... We're also keen on doing some of the NZ walks, where a warmer sleeping bag would come in handy too I guess)

As mentioned, nothing worse than finding out your sleeping bag is not warm enough while halfway on an extended hike.

Any suggestions as to good sleeping bag options?

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul, 2015 9:16 am
by north-north-west
Juudbruinsma wrote:Any suggestions as to good sleeping bag options?

Depends on your budget. I'm a fan of the S2S bags, but there are cheaper options out here.

Head for our Equipment section and do a search on sleeping bags. There's plenty of discussion there - enough to send you ga-ga, in fact.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul, 2015 6:59 pm
by wildernesswanderer
Personally I'd rather be to warm than to cold, easy to get cooler, hard to get warmer.

My last bag was a S2S APII, great bag for warmth, been to the vic high country in very windy cold conditions around -5 and was toasty warm. Thing I hated about the bag, heavy, 1200 grams and the mummy shape was pretty tight.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul, 2015 12:41 pm
by aloftas
wildernesswanderer wrote:Personally I'd rather be to warm than to cold, easy to get cooler, hard to get warmer.

My last bag was a S2S APII, great bag for warmth, been to the vic high country in very windy cold conditions around -5 and was toasty warm. Thing I hated about the bag, heavy, 1200 grams and the mummy shape was pretty tight.


I have to say, the mummy style is pretty tight. One Planet does a zip in gusset which adds from zero to 25 cms at the shoulder. Uses a YKK size 8 zipper. I am getting one for my newly acquired Mountain Expedition bag which is so tight I just know I wont sleep.
Hard to play a millionaire's game on a soda stream income...

anyway...I hate being cold, not to mention it can kill...

so.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul, 2015 1:01 pm
by wayno
back in the good old days you'd just get one temperature rating for the bag,,, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the comfort or limit rating, I'm sure it was the extreme rating.... I had a minus ten bag that wouldn't keep me warm sleeping in thermals at zero...
I've got a minus twenty five bag and I wouldnt really want to try it in minus 25 without a lot of extra clothing on... temp ratings don't mean much in the cold when you're tenting if your sleeping pad doesn't insulate well...

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul, 2015 8:59 pm
by kitty
The [OT_Safety_&_Full_Gear_Checklist.pdf] that you have to sign and hand over at Cradle Mountain Visitor Centre says "A good quality warm sleeping bag (kept dry in a waterproof bag) (minimum temperature rating -10˚C)"
Would that be the "lower limit" rating?

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 7:36 am
by wayno
to generalise,depends how you sleep, comfort is for people who spread out their limbs, limit is more for people who don't mine folding their arms up and don't mind if they cant starfish if they want to keep warm....
women are supposed to look at the comfort rating more, and men should in theory cope more with the limit rating.. but its just an average.
really you need to find out through experience and comparing yourself with other people which temp rating is valid for you to get a good nights sleep..

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 5:39 pm
by aloftas
well...today I was fortunate enough to convince the guys at Macpac to give some seriously good prices. Very accommodating, cool cats as well, full of pertinent up to date info, for example, the olt atm is frozen and solid, but I suspect mush. Anway I am a bit inept at posting images, and I cant find any info online. Is called the Blizzard. Has 1100 g of 750 loft. "Boots On" capacity with nylon lined foot box. Much...more generously proportioned than this Mountain Expedition bag I got off Gumtree. So..Thanks Macpac. Rated down to -40 c full UN Mil spec.
Got snowshoes?

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 5:55 pm
by Strider
aloftas wrote:well...today I was fortunate enough to convince the guys at Macpac to give some seriously good prices. Very accommodating, cool cats as well, full of pertinent up to date info, for example, the olt atm is frozen and solid, but I suspect mush. Anway I am a bit inept at posting images, and I cant find any info online. Is called the Blizzard. Has 1100 g of 750 loft. "Boots On" capacity with nylon lined foot box. Much...more generously proportioned than this Mountain Expedition bag I got off Gumtree. So..Thanks Macpac. Rated down to -40 c full UN Mil spec.
Got snowshoes?

I'm not sure whether this is a serious comment or not? Are you planning a trip to Antarctica? Do you really sleep with your boots on? What is the total weight of this monster?

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 6:06 pm
by Scottyk
Strider wrote:
aloftas wrote:well...today I was fortunate enough to convince the guys at Macpac to give some seriously good prices. Very accommodating, cool cats as well, full of pertinent up to date info, for example, the olt atm is frozen and solid, but I suspect mush. Anway I am a bit inept at posting images, and I cant find any info online. Is called the Blizzard. Has 1100 g of 750 loft. "Boots On" capacity with nylon lined foot box. Much...more generously proportioned than this Mountain Expedition bag I got off Gumtree. So..Thanks Macpac. Rated down to -40 c full UN Mil spec.
Got snowshoes?

I'm not sure whether this is a serious comment or not? Are you planning a trip to Antarctica? Do you really sleep with your boots on? What is the total weight of this monster?

they always sleep with there boots on in Antarctica :lol:

I bet they were keen to get rid of that bag, probably been hanging around the shop for years. I can't think of it being much use on this continent.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 6:09 pm
by aloftas
Strider wrote:
aloftas wrote:well...today I was fortunate enough to convince the guys at Macpac to give some seriously good prices. Very accommodating, cool cats as well, full of pertinent up to date info, for example, the olt atm is frozen and solid, but I suspect mush. Anway I am a bit inept at posting images, and I cant find any info online. Is called the Blizzard. Has 1100 g of 750 loft. "Boots On" capacity with nylon lined foot box. Much...more generously proportioned than this Mountain Expedition bag I got off Gumtree. So..Thanks Macpac. Rated down to -40 c full UN Mil spec.
Got snowshoes?

I'm not sure whether this is a serious comment or not? Are you planning a trip to Antarctica? Do you really sleep with your boots on? What is the total weight of this monster?

I know right?
I was looking at the bags, and I hate being cold, and Tasmania can get to some extreme case weather scenarios. http://www.macpac.co.nz/equipment/sleep ... 00-xl.html I was going to buy this one, but I decided to buy tjis military spec one because of its extreme case versatility. There IS no link, as I am aware to this bag, I cant post an image because I don't know how.
I would rather have a bag I could open up to cool down, than one where I had to attempt to heat up.
Pelion Hut at - temperature+ wind chill...its 1100 grams of fabric pertex endurance, draft control yadda tadda...
I lost interest in walking when fires were banned.

Ill see if I can find a link. I only have a pic and Im too dumb to figure out how to post images.

But..I wont be cold.

One thing about life saving essentials.
The life ya save may not be your own.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 6:16 pm
by aloftas
Scottyk wrote:
Strider wrote:
aloftas wrote:well...today I was fortunate enough to convince the guys at Macpac to give some seriously good prices. Very accommodating, cool cats as well, full of pertinent up to date info, for example, the olt atm is frozen and solid, but I suspect mush. Anway I am a bit inept at posting images, and I cant find any info online. Is called the Blizzard. Has 1100 g of 750 loft. "Boots On" capacity with nylon lined foot box. Much...more generously proportioned than this Mountain Expedition bag I got off Gumtree. So..Thanks Macpac. Rated down to -40 c full UN Mil spec.
Got snowshoes?

I'm not sure whether this is a serious comment or not? Are you planning a trip to Antarctica? Do you really sleep with your boots on? What is the total weight of this monster?

they always sleep with there boots on in Antarctica :lol:

I bet they were keen to get rid of that bag, probably been hanging around the shop for years. I can't think of it being much use on this continent.


I had the choice within a range of 50 bucks which by terms of loft volume looked like stuffed \geese rather than free range chook.

Its horses for courses.

I am sure if I said, look, I will take this other one, they would happily exchange it.

As it is, it is by far and away the best looking sleeping bag on my bed out of the others that are there

Pertex is pertex, goose down is goose down and 45% off says I don't care, if it is too hot.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 6:18 pm
by Travis22
Sounds like decent sleeping bag for alpine / snow camping. I doubt its as 'overkill' as it sounds (if your intended use is sleeping in a tent on snow) and the -40 will be survivability not comfort but id say you'll still be pretty good at -10. You'll still want a good sleeping matt to pair it with.

Whats the overall weight, 1.5/1.6kg?

Travis.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 6:21 pm
by aloftas
Travis22 wrote:Sounds like decent sleeping bag for alpine / snow camping. I doubt its as 'overkill' as it sounds (if your intended use is sleeping in a tent on snow) and the -40 will be survivability not comfort but id say you'll still be pretty good at -10. You'll still want a good sleeping matt to pair it with.

Whats the overall weight, 1.5/1.6kg?

Travis.



Well it would have to be, I was too dumb to weigh it before I sprung the bag open :))_
You talk about the "big 4"
whate about the "Big 3"

Tepmerature, humidity and wind chill.
I will happily sleep in a bag flung open because its too hot, rather than try to keep kidney function ticking along, any day.
I hate being cold, and so will every newbie who underestimates the combined doom in cold wet and windy conditions.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 6:29 pm
by Juudbruinsma
north-north-west wrote:Depends on your budget. I'm a fan of the S2S bags, but there are cheaper options out here.

Head for our Equipment section and do a search on sleeping bags. There's plenty of discussion there - enough to send you ga-ga, in fact.


Thanks, been looking at the equipment section - lots (and LOTS :shock: ) of information indeed - useful stuff though. From what I can gather, the main brands mentioned as being good are Western Mountaineering, Sea to Summit, Malachowski and Cumulus... Although these are also the top priced brands (really like the look of the Western Mountaineering - Versalite btw (anyone any experience with this bag?), but dear me, it's expensive!). I like the S2S bags as well, although they are a bit heavier... Any brands that do bags that are a bit more affordable with a say -7 comfort rating?

Also, does anyone have any experience with sleeping bag liners? I will need to get one regardless of what bag I will get (as Travis pointed out, some protection will help the bag go a long way). I am just contemplating whether to get a lower rated sleeping bag (= less $$) and one of those liners that claim to add XX degrees to your bag, or to just get a simple light weight liner and a higher rated bag. From what I have seen, the warmer liners can be quite heavy and I'm not sure whether to believe the claims of the added degrees they promise to add to your bag - some claim to add as much as 15c.

kitty wrote:The [OT_Safety_&_Full_Gear_Checklist.pdf] that you have to sign and hand over at Cradle Mountain Visitor Centre says "A good quality warm sleeping bag (kept dry in a waterproof bag) (minimum temperature rating -10˚C)"
Would that be the "lower limit" rating?


I took the minimum temperature rating as being the lower limit rating (which prompted me to start this post as my current bag will not go that far).

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 6:46 pm
by Travis22
aloftas wrote:
Travis22 wrote:Sounds like decent sleeping bag for alpine / snow camping. I doubt its as 'overkill' as it sounds (if your intended use is sleeping in a tent on snow) and the -40 will be survivability not comfort but id say you'll still be pretty good at -10. You'll still want a good sleeping matt to pair it with.

Whats the overall weight, 1.5/1.6kg?

Travis.



Well it would have to be, I was too dumb to weigh it before I sprung the bag open :))_
You talk about the "big 4"
whate about the "Big 3"

Tepmerature, humidity and wind chill.
I will happily sleep in a bag flung open because its too hot, rather than try to keep kidney function ticking along, any day.
I hate being cold, and so will every newbie who underestimates the combined doom in cold wet and windy conditions.


What did i say about a big 4?

Your preaching to the converted here, as i said i think your bag sounds great for snow camping.

Travis.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 6:56 pm
by north-north-west
Juudbruinsma wrote:Also, does anyone have any experience with sleeping bag liners? I will need to get one regardless of what bag I will get (as Travis pointed out, some protection will help the bag go a long way). I am just contemplating whether to get a lower rated sleeping bag (= less $$) and one of those liners that claim to add XX degrees to your bag, or to just get a simple light weight liner and a higher rated bag. From what I have seen, the warmer liners can be quite heavy and I'm not sure whether to believe the claims of the added degrees they promise to add to your bag - some claim to add as much as 15c.

I don't think any walkers agree that the 15c claims are accurate. Silk liners are lightweight and help to protect the bag as well as adding a teensy bit to the warmth.
Generally the idea is to carry a set of good thermals (Most of us use merino) & warm woollen socks for camp & sleep wear. These are kept dry and ONLY used at camp and for sleeping. That will add a good bit to the warmth of your sleep system. Most of us have a down jacket or vest also for camp use, and this can be worn as well if it gets really cold at night. Plus your sleeping mat makes a massive difference to comfort.

It's not just the bag. You have to consider the whole sleeping system.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 7:37 pm
by wayno
minus 40 will be the extreme rating of the blizzard bag, macpacs current extreme weather offering the epic 1000 is rated for minus 40 extreme, minus 19 limit, minus 11 comfort, so its not quite as extreme as it sounds
extreme rating means it should keep you alive at that temp but you will still be cold and will be lucky to get any sleep,, although if it gets up around zero or above it could be uncomfortably hot for the average sleeper let along a hot sleeper.

http://www.macpac.co.nz/epic-1000-sleeping-bag.html

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 9:13 pm
by Travis22
Juudbruinsma wrote:
Thanks, been looking at the equipment section - lots (and LOTS :shock: ) of information indeed - useful stuff though. From what I can gather, the main brands mentioned as being good are Western Mountaineering, Sea to Summit, Malachowski and Cumulus... Although these are also the top priced brands (really like the look of the Western Mountaineering - Versalite btw (anyone any experience with this bag?), but dear me, it's expensive!). I like the S2S bags as well, although they are a bit heavier... Any brands that do bags that are a bit more affordable with a say -7 comfort rating?


Im a huge One Planet tragic. Have a look at their range and like every brand dont be put off by any RRP you see as in store you should be able to get a very reasonable discount.

Check out the One Planet Bungle -10, and for a ball park street price take 20% off RRP. Or if you want a better outer look at the Bushlite series.

Juudbruinsma wrote:
Also, does anyone have any experience with sleeping bag liners? I will need to get one regardless of what bag I will get (as Travis pointed out, some protection will help the bag go a long way). I am just contemplating whether to get a lower rated sleeping bag (= less $$) and one of those liners that claim to add XX degrees to your bag, or to just get a simple light weight liner and a higher rated bag. From what I have seen, the warmer liners can be quite heavy and I'm not sure whether to believe the claims of the added degrees they promise to add to your bag - some claim to add as much as 15c.


A 100% pure silk liner will add some warmth but honestly i think only 2-3degrees. Id suggest buying a bag to suit your intended usage and buy a liner to protect the bag.

If you havent considered it look for a bag that can open up at the bottom, so you can let your feet out for some reduction in warmth if your a bit hot in the bag and also giving the bag the ability to be opened up completely and used as a quilt again if its a warm night. Being able to open it right up will also make airing / drying the bag quicker and easier when required.


kitty wrote:The [OT_Safety_&_Full_Gear_Checklist.pdf] that you have to sign and hand over at Cradle Mountain Visitor Centre says "A good quality warm sleeping bag (kept dry in a waterproof bag) (minimum temperature rating -10˚C)"
Would that be the "lower limit" rating?


I think this is just a figure put out there to try and get the general public, newcomers to hiking to stop and think carefully about their sleeping bag. Id be surprised if many newcomers to hiking (or one off hikers out to do the OLT) would go out and spend $600-700+ on a bag with a -10 comfort rating. So i think the '-10' would be viewed as being a bag with the extreme rating around -10, and a comfort around 4 to 0 by these people.

Travis.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 9:26 pm
by Strider
My quilt cost me around $400 after exchange rate and postage. Even if it only lasts me 50 nights, it's still money very well spent on a piece of gear that allows me to get out there and be comfortable while doing it IMO.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 9:50 pm
by aloftas
well, I have to say, after a lay downin it with cotton tee shirt and denims...it feels great. So great in fact that I am tempted to go buy the one with the Gore-Tex outer...as well.
30% off a grand is about 600 plus or minus a cats whisker.
it is cheap.
on weight,

better a goose down in the pack than a chocky in the pocky.

being "too hot" in Alpine conditions will not kill you...in the main...but, when the "big 3" loom, if any of the "Big 4" fail, there must be a contingency.

B

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 10:04 pm
by MickyB
aloftas wrote:30% off a grand is about 600 plus or minus a cats whisker.


That cat must have fat whiskers

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 10:13 pm
by aloftas
MickyB wrote:
aloftas wrote:30% off a grand is about 600 plus or minus a cats whisker.


That cat must have fat whiskers

I guess it depends on how much discretionary spending power the cat has.
Some cats are more discretionary, than others.
The Law of Flexibility.
Anyway, its a GREAT bag. I am going to try it with a s2s liner now.
Id love to buy another one
Hence its the cats whiskers...
the most noticeable elemenst are; the feeling of warmth, draught control, and as an adjunct to temperature control...the warmth of foot bucket, the feeling of safety, the impression of a "dome" over you.

Happy to take the damn monstrosity off their shelves...
:0

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 10:17 pm
by MickyB
aloftas wrote:
MickyB wrote:
aloftas wrote:30% off a grand is about 600 plus or minus a cats whisker.


That cat must have fat whiskers

I guess it depends on how much discretionary spending power the cat has.
Some cats are more discretionary, than others.
The Law of Flexibility.
Anyway, its a GREAT bag. I am going to try it with a s2s liner now.
Id love to buy another one
Hence its the cats whiskers...


When I went to school 30% off a grand was 700. Maybe things have changed.

Re: Sleeping bag

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul, 2015 10:25 pm
by Strider
If I was spending $700 on sleeping gear it would be a summer quilt and a winter quilt. This amount on one (albeit very specialised) sleeping bag is incredibly expensive. Even One Planet and Western Mountaineering bags are cheaper than this. The fact it isn't on the website and uses the cheapest possible down makes me wonder if its a one off for some kind of re-enactment display.

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