Upper body layering systems

[stu]

So people probably have different thoughts on this (as we all process temperature differently); just seeing what other use as their layering system (upper body).

My set-up for cold &/or wet days (this excludes my standard scrub shirt which is always with me for hot days &/or scrubby terrain but not really worn when things get bleak):

Base: Icebreaker 150g/sqm short sleeve t-shirt (thin merino base is warm when wet next to body & comfortable; also good for very hot days)
Mid: Arcteryx Rho LT 1/4 zip (just ordered one of these & hoping it's perfect for this job, can also be worn under scrub shirt)
Wind: Mountain Hardwear light weight soft shell jacket (windstopper); cuts out any wind that my outer shell doesn't & use over my light weight down jacket at camp (left at home on warmer forecast trips).
Outer: 3 layer Gore Tex Pro Shell

Additionals:
merino beanie
merino neck gaiter
merino liner gloves (usually to go under 'ninja' brand scrub gloves)

Just interested to hear what others take, particularly the lightweight crowd...sometimes you can't keep moving (lunch / rest stops / waiting for others) to keep warm so a decent layering system is necessary.

Stu.

[Maelgwn]

Standard set up for me is long sleeve merino top + 100 weight fleece + shell. Long johns and water proof pants also of the conditions call for it. I carry a thin synthetic jacket for around camp that can be worn as well if it is really cold.

[Nuts]

Sounds like you have it workesd out already stu?

I'm not sure if i'm part of any crowd and have a mountain of disgards but:
Montbell make some really nice down inner clothing. Even if you don't do much in winter (or include them in your sleeping system), weight 4 weight I doubt they'd be beaten.
I gave up on those 150 thermals, they just fall apart (for me). I do have some 200 weight hoodys and usually strip off and swap for one at night (in summer with a down vest then rain shell if needed) it would have to be really icy to wear during the day but do sometimes if no climbming coming up.
During the day iv'e been using some sportwool (blended) L/S polos. They shred too but nowhere near as easily and they serve as a single layer or do stay warm/dry quickly as a baselayer.

I did get a buff but the Terramar balacalava gets more use.

That said, the options change quickly and ive only spent a handful of weeks walking over summer so haven't looked into it again, sportwool definitely worth a look but i dont recall to many options when i bought mine.

Ninja gloves eh Have you tried the kevlar riggers?

[sthughes]

150gsm Macpac Merino T (if cooler weather)
Craghoppers Long Sleeve Shirt
Columbia Lightweight Fleece (if cold)
Kathmandu Gore Tex Active shell (or a heavier weight coat if planning a walk in a scrubby area)

Kangaroo Leather wide brimmed hat if sunny/hot.
Outdoor Research Windstopper beanie with ear flaps if cool/windy.
Fleece neck gaiter if really cold.

Polypro gloves (if needed)
add Thicker fleece gloves if really cold.

I don't carry the neck gaiter or fleece gloves unless I'm expecting it cold.

[doogs]

In winter/cold wet conditions I use a long sleeve thermal top, a wind proof fleece and a shell jacket. Generally using just the thermal top and the shell as I generate a fair amount of heat when walking. When stopped if for more than a couple of minutes I put the fleece on too which traps the warm air pretty well. I also wear a thinsulate beanie and if the weather was proper alpine conditions I carry a lightweight woollen scarf to use as a buff. Oh yeah, can't forget the Ninjas and Dachstein mitts (unbeatable for cold and wet conditions IMO).
This isn't a perfect system but it is often hard justifying more lightweight and expensive gear to the missus

[icemancometh]

Depends on conditions

Walking:
Normally only 1 or 2 actual walking layers:
HH Trailwizard or HH Charger 1/2zip (Synthetic zipped top) 137g/152g
Montane Smock (windshirt) 115g

Then when I stop the following goes on top
Mammut Stratus Synthetic Vest (60gsm synthetic down) 290g (in Tassie I may remove this layer and substitute an over the top layer like the MHW Compressor (100gsm synthetic down) which would go over the WP if and as necessary, which so far has not been necessary)
Montane Atomic DT Jacket (WP) 298g

Thin HH glove liners for the hands + a wide brim hat + Buff +Sunnies

Winter: (everything gets a lot more technical and I'm normally doing something else besides just walking, ie alpine climbing/BC skiing, as well so different systems for different activities but here is a general starting point)
For skiing (so most like walking) it would probably be a compression singlet, then a NWA Spider Hoody + Buff then the windshirt then the Vest then the WP with the Compressor on top if required. Plus a ski helmet and goggles. (This system would also depend on whether I am wearing my bibs which have a torso component hence allowing me to go lighter up top OR allow me to push the system into the cold more).
***After trying out the NWA Spider Hoody it is an absolute winner and has solved many of my base/mid layering problems of the past for colder conditions replacing a couple of thin layers and being more versatile and more comfy. Highly recommended for subzero/alpine conditions

For alpine I could go lighter as it's often over the top or back off but for extended trips probably take it all. IF I knew it's not technical and could move most of the time, would take less again esp in the mid layers but keep the Compressor. Maybe ditch the WP in certain conditions too. And yes, would go Ninja gloves, Metolius Belay gloves for rapping/belaying and BD Mercury Mitts/Soloist Lobsters. IB Chute neckwarmer if really cold but unlikely. + a BD Tracer helmet.

With all the new technology (this system has only been tweaked a little bit in the last two years) I would prefer to go a full jacket instead of the vest in the mid layer as fabrics have gotten lighter, something like the Mammut Foraker, the Montane Fireball or the Mont Bell Thermawrap range...300g or under and in that 40-60gsm range which is ideal for moving in the cold.

[roysta]

The Stu approach is pretty close to mine, except the 150 SS could go over the long sleever when necessary.

[ninjapuppet]

Base: Icebreaker 150g/sqm short sleeve t-shirt (thin merino base is warm when wet next to body & comfortable; also good for very hot days)
Mid: Arcteryx Rho LT 1/4 zip (just ordered one of these & hoping it's perfect for this job, can also be worn under scrub shirt)
Wind: Mountain Hardwear light weight soft shell jacket (windstopper); cuts out any wind that my outer shell doesn't & use over my light weight down jacket at camp (left at home on warmer forecast trips).
Outer: 3 layer Gore Tex Pro Shell

Stu.

Sounds like a pretty well setup system to me.

***After trying out the NWA Spider Hoody it is an absolute winner and has solved many of my base/mid layering problems of the past for colder conditions replacing a couple of thin layers and being more versatile and more comfy. Highly recommended for subzero/alpine conditions

and with this NW spider hoody, have you had a chance to compare how it goes to the R1? Its $90 price tag seems to be more wallet-friendly than the $150 R1

[icemancometh]

and with this NW spider hoody, have you had a chance to compare how it goes to the R1? Its $90 price tag seems to be more wallet-friendly than the $150 R1

the fit is the biggest difference...the NWA line is built by climbers for climbers...the R1 is shall we say a bit more generous though I think it had longer sleeves and a better face mask, which the NWA could do with. Overall, the Spider is better with the only thing I really want being the face mask for winter...for walking it doesnt matter

[Moondog55]

I am upgrading if go out for an extended winter tour this season.
So
Silk weight LS top
New R1 Hoodie ( or just keep my existing PT 100 from 1980 )
Add a new windshirt in EPIC
Ditch the Polartec in favour of a Nanopuff pullover
Perhaps a Softshell if I get it finished in time
use the belay parka over everything
The main change will be saving the weight and bulk of the big polartec 300 jacket with the same warmth in the Nanopuff at a quarter the weight and bulk and leaving the big down parka at home.
hard shell will stay the same, my old surplus camo jacket

[icemancometh]

I am upgrading if go out for an extended winter tour this season.
So
Silk weight LS top
New R1 Hoodie ( or just keep my existing PT 100 from 1980 )
Add a new windshirt in EPIC
Ditch the Polartec in favour of a Nanopuff pullover
Perhaps a Softshell if I get it finished in time
use the belay parka over everything
The main change will be saving the weight and bulk of the big polartec 300 jacket with the same warmth in the Nanopuff at a quarter the weight and bulk and leaving the big down parka at home.
hard shell will stay the same, my old surplus camo jacket

Why the softshell? Is that for snow or warmth?
We've got essentially the same synthetic system otherwise, just a few discrepancies in fabrics and brands reflecting personal preferences and body shape.

The Black Spider Light Hoody is also about 70g lighter and fits like a baselayer whereas the R1 on me is like a more fitted hoody, ie still casual fit. Keen to see what you think of the Nanopuff as I bought one years ago but ditched it due to poor fit. The Montane Fireball looks a little trimmmer though probably could be better still

[Moondog55]

Both as a windshell and to spill the driven snow, I am so impressed with the performance of the performance of the mesh lined microfibre that I think the extra windproofness of the EPIC will make it worthwhile, I will be using 2 or 3 layers of mesh. and the big Goretex hard shell is simply too warm to be useful
I have to say even the XL Nanopuff is a little tight around my shoulders but the XXL was too baggy, I would have bought already but I am waiting until the half zip hoodie is released if I can.
There is still an old-fashioned niggle in the back of my mind tho ; this is trying to tell me to throw in the old cashmere and mohair jumpers "Just-in_case" i am trying to ignore it.

[forest]

Base / Worn Shirt - RAB Meco 120 LS (No good in scrub though, use a proper shirt for that like a MH Canyon Shirt)
Mid - R1 Knock off (Has to be looking like sub 5°C daytime / Lower than -5°C temps to take that)
Puffy - Feathered Friends Daybreak Down jacket.
Windshirt - Montane Featherlite Smock (Excellent warmth while moving and it breaths heaps more than a rain shell)
Shell - Few options there.... Normally either my eVent packa or Arcterxy Theta SL. If it's looking like good weather and I'm ontrack I'll take my Marmot Mica jacket as it's very light

Headwear is just a icebreaker balaclava and my Blackrock beanie.
Hands are possum wool gloves and some eVent MLD rain mitts.

[ULWalkingPhil]

Icebreaker 200 long sleeve
Patagonia R2 jacket
Montane Goretex rain jacket

In camp at night I have Lowe alpine dryflo mid weight under garments and a Macpac down filled jacket.

A lot of this gear is new, have not had the opportunity to test them out thus far apart the icebreaker top and Macpac down jacket, which I purchased a year ago.


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[mtrain]

I don't bother layering any more. I have got some of the pertex/ pile gear from Buffalo in the uk. In summer I can take a long sleeve shirt and then my techlite covers warm wear and rain wear all in one and in winter I can use my special six instead. The stuff vents and dries so quickly that I don't need special rain wear and spare clothes etc. In *&%$#! weather wet goretex and thermals don't dry or keep you warm. check out the website. It is a bit of a change from the layering philosophy we get sold but it works.
www.buffalosystems.co.uk

[ULWalkingPhil]

I've just updated my winter layer system
Patagonia capilene 3 base layer top and bottom
Patagonia R2 fleece Jacket
Montane Featherlite Marathon wind proof jacket if required.
And if and when it rains a Marmot Goretex Jacket.

My waterproof pants are Macpac Prophet eVent trousers.

Summer use.
Momtane light sportwool top and nylon pants. With merino wool undies.


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[nq111]

I do it a little different.

Even in winter / snow in Tassie I am only wearing a longsleeve polypro thermal top (any cheap no-brand) now days with an XGO Phase 1 shirt underneath (used to be a bonds cotton chesty when I was young ). If it gets breezy add add a gore-tex or now event shell to cut the wind / add a bit of a vapour barrier (gore-tex). I find any more layers and I get too hot when moving.

For the head a beanie always when cold - preferably windstopper or the like. And I have come to love gloves especially for scrambling on cold wet/icy rock and have Simms Windstopper fliptop mits (they are designed for fishing but have all the features i wanted). Mitts are warmer than gloves but the flip-top enables dexterity for scrambling or setting up tents in a panic .

So the look is kinda like a cartoon character with light shorts, light and tight top but big bulky hands and bulky feet (boots and gaiters)! Whatever works for you I say .

But I quickly chill when I stop (particularly because that always has to be somewhere with a view, which means lots of cold wind) so then usually goes on a fleece (windpro) and/or shell.

Not in Tassie but when colder again I have added a light (e.g 150 wt) merino top or 100wt fleece to the above. But that is all when moving - best to be on the cool side and dry than warm and damp.

Around camp I change into a fresh, dry set of the above layers and then add a 300 wt fleece (if I am worried on the trip about things getting damp) or down jacket (nicer warmth - but i treat as a risk that the down gets wet and compromised and only take if high chance of being dry - or a short trip).

[stu]

Some have commented that they use synthetic insulation (eg. primaloft / coreloft etc.) garments for mid-layer.
I am intrigued by this and can relate to this as a winter option, but have others used synthetic insulating mid-layers for harsh, wet (& hence cold) Tassie conditions?
How do they perform when saturated under your shell (warmth & wind stopping)?
If they did perform in these conditions, then teamed with a lightweight merino base layer & an outer shell they would form part of a perfect 3 layer system...right?

[Moondog55]

I don't bother layering any more. I have got some of the pertex/ pile gear from Buffalo in the uk. In summer I can take a long sleeve shirt and then my techlite covers warm wear and rain wear all in one and in winter I can use my special six instead. The stuff vents and dries so quickly that I don't need special rain wear and spare clothes etc. In *&%$#! weather wet goretex and thermals don't dry or keep you warm. check out the website. It is a bit of a change from the layering philosophy we get sold but it works.
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk

I was thinking of getting the lightweight Buffalo shirt until I realised that the EPIC windshirt over the lightweight fleece was the functional equivalent.
For those of us who make our own gear and clothing I think the hardest part is getting the lightweight single side fleece.

[blacksheep]

Some have commented that they use synthetic insulation (eg. primaloft / coreloft etc.) garments for mid-layer.
I am intrigued by this and can relate to this as a winter option, but have others used synthetic insulating mid-layers for harsh, wet (& hence cold) Tassie conditions?
How do they perform when saturated under your shell (warmth & wind stopping)?
If they did perform in these conditions, then teamed with a lightweight merino base layer & an outer shell they would form part of a perfect 3 layer system...right?

we have been trialling a lightweight primaloft jacket (will be in stores in about 2 months) as a mid-layer. We used 100gsm in the core/body and 60gsm in the sleeves and hood. The result is pretty great- light and compact enough to substitute a fleece (more warmer) and vastly superior versatility to a light weight down sweater ( it retains a great dealof it's thermal value when it is wet ). I think a merino base layer, primaloft mid layer and eVent shell make a very highly functional, high performance cool to cold, wet weather layering system for multi day use.

[Moondog55]

My memories of my last Tassie winter are all miserable, the only people who were warm on that trip ( a long time ago mind you ) were the couple who brought their synthetic insulated ski jackets. For my dollar wool and oilskins are not enough; warmth to wet weight ratio is all wrong, and while I may still wear wool or cashmere as a mid layer it does not work for e as next to the skin underwear.

[blacksheep]

is EPIC ( by Nextec) still around and in use ?? (even their website was last updated in 2010, and they are never at trade shows) All in all a lot of manufacturers moved away from it...the encapsulated fibre concept is good, the reality is that it didn't consistantly deliver. I used it first in 1998, last in 2002 in products I worked on.

[doogs]

My climbing partner in Scotland always wore a buffalo shirt and nothing on top or below it and he raved about it. I was a poor student at the time and always aspired to get one, but never did. I had completely forgotten about them until mentioned on the site a few weeks ago. That was 15 years ago!! It was great for Scottish conditions which are a wee bit harsher than Tasmania. I might ask my wife for one for my birthday

[Moondog55]

I got mine from Crossfire when they shifted all their production to Vietnam, It is still being used to make all the new stuff for the American Army and in that system ( the new PCU 7 level clothing system ) it works brilliantly.
I do remember reading that they had consistency issues but those must have been fixed. It is a little heavier than Pertex, no more weatherproof but it seems to dry out much faster

[mtrain]

I don't bother layering any more. I have got some of the pertex/ pile gear from Buffalo in the uk. In summer I can take a long sleeve shirt and then my techlite covers warm wear and rain wear all in one and in winter I can use my special six instead. The stuff vents and dries so quickly that I don't need special rain wear and spare clothes etc. In *&%$#! weather wet goretex and thermals don't dry or keep you warm. check out the website. It is a bit of a change from the layering philosophy we get sold but it works.
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk

I was thinking of getting the lightweight Buffalo shirt until I realised that the EPIC windshirt over the lightweight fleece was the functional equivalent.
For those of us who make our own gear and clothing I think the hardest part is getting the lightweight single side fleece.

Yeah , my wife does similar with a pertex wind shirt over light fleece, the only thing you miss out on is the venting directly on your skin which makes them much more flexible if you start to over heat.
I think the other major factor is having fluffy /furry fabric against your skin rather than a woven fabric like most thermals. This means that you have more air trapped next to your skin rather than wet fabric which cools your skin quickly, when you just have fluffy fibre ends against you skin they dry much quicker and you stay warmer which in turn means you clothing dries quicker.

[tasadam]

For walking I use the same shirt I've been using for +7 years and I am surprised it isn't walking by itself now, some red sleeved grey thing I bought from paddy pallin in Launceston.
Colder - put the PP vest on.
Colder still = windstopper goretex jacket.
Waterproof layer is a Mont Hydronaut jacket but I have a Macpac one I'm thinking of starting to carry instead - I'm FED UP of the Mont jacket storm flap getting caught in the zipper when I do it up - every time, 3 Mont shells the same.
If I need another warm layer I wear a long sleeve light(ish) polypro top.

Camp -
I've got some Macpac layers and some Smitten layers. Both are good, but I've been preferring my Smitten layers. The short sleeve one to sleep in if it's warm enough to (which it usually is, because of my sleeping bag). The long sleeve one will double up as a day wear top if my regular walking top gets too rank or if I wimp out because it's too cold to put on a wet top.
An extra layer I generally carry is a Mont stretchy thing that works well, something a bit like this one. I'm sure many manufacturers have variants of it.

I've got an Icebreaker top, can't figure out why it always feels cold. I don't use it any more.

[stu]

Some have commented that they use synthetic insulation (eg. primaloft / coreloft etc.) garments for mid-layer.
I am intrigued by this and can relate to this as a winter option, but have others used synthetic insulating mid-layers for harsh, wet (& hence cold) Tassie conditions?
How do they perform when saturated under your shell (warmth & wind stopping)?
If they did perform in these conditions, then teamed with a lightweight merino base layer & an outer shell they would form part of a perfect 3 layer system...right?

we have been trialling a lightweight primaloft jacket (will be in stores in about 2 months) as a mid-layer. We used 100gsm in the core/body and 60gsm in the sleeves and hood. The result is pretty great- light and compact enough to substitute a fleece (more warmer) and vastly superior versatility to a light weight down sweater ( it retains a great dealof it's thermal value when it is wet ). I think a merino base layer, primaloft mid layer and eVent shell make a very highly functional, high performance cool to cold, wet weather layering system for multi day use.

Any advance photos or additional info on these Cam? (overall weight, outer fabric etc.)?

[Moondog55]

When I was in the USA last December-January I noticed that most people who were out and about/ active in the rotten conditions were wearing insulated garments rather than fleece or pile as a mid layer and or outer layer.
the most common garments were a heavy weight underwear top with a neck zip and a patagonia nanopuff pullover, that combination would have been on 2 out of every three people, despite the high price of patagonia gear.

have to say tho that it was a really warm winter over there, temperatures hovering around freezing; plus or minus 5 degrees ( Hmm That does sound like the Tassie I remember)

[blacksheep]

Stu, I'll try to remember to post details next week, I'm off on an mtb trip with a bunch of the design crew till then.

[icemancometh]

I agree. I think the modern windshirts and synthetic insulation have generally replaced the Buffalo system which was ahead of its time. I hate the feel of pile and the bulk if I don't need it and the 2 pc combo of W+SI is lighter and more versatile. The plus of the Buffalo is the often great vent zips, but then again if you need to vent that much maybe it is better off not being worn.

Blacksheep, wouldn't the 100gsm be too much for a mid layer? In NZ I have never climbed or skied in anything heavier than a 60gsm vest. You'd probably generate even more heat walking, and you'd probably be at lower altitudes too. Most resort ski jackets these days are only 40gsm insulation that I see. Except for the big down ski jackets you see in really cold places like North America and Japan.