Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Bushwalking gear and paraphernalia. Electronic gadget topics (inc. GPS, PLB, chargers) belong in the 'Techno Babble' sub-forum.
Forum rules
TIP: The online Bushwalk Inventory System can help bushwalkers with a variety of bushwalk planning tasks, including: Manage which items they take bushwalking so that they do not forget anything they might need, plan meals for their walks, and automatically compile food/fuel shopping lists (lists of consumables) required to make and cook the meals for each walk. It is particularly useful for planning for groups who share food or other items, but is also useful for individual walkers.

Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Stibb » Sat 18 Feb, 2012 1:01 pm

I just bought myself a Fire Maple 100T for an upcoming trip :D
Being new to gas stoves and multi-day trips I'm looking for advice regarding how much gas to bring.
We plan a trip for 5days/4nights (end of March/early April) or, if our bodies hold up and the weather is good, an extra day can be accommodated.

Our menu will be:
Hot breakfast (cooked oatmeal + hot drinks)
Cooked dinners (choice of backcountry meals or noodle soup or instant mash + tuna, hot drinks and a cup-a-soup before bed)

I've seen estimates between 30-80g/day for 2 persons. Without prior experience I guess we wont be the most efficient users (common sense will be used :wink: ) but we don't want to come home with too much left over either. A 220g canister seems a bit tight but 450g could be overkill. Or is it?

Please advise
User avatar
Stibb
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue 24 May, 2011 4:01 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Female

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Franco » Sat 18 Feb, 2012 2:53 pm

Stibb
Take a good look at this page :
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Efficiency.htm
click on the Tricks link
Keep in mind that you do not need to bring water to a boil for coffee (if not sterilising...) neither for hot chocolate and that is what I would recommend before going to bed...
(the Coles type is good enough)
If in low temps, drink some hot soup at lunch (again hot not boiling water)
You save a lot of fuel by using a wide pot and having the gas to about half (flame smaller than the pot diameter)
Use a wind shield.
Because you are not really cooking , I would work on about 10g per liter . So work out how many liters you need to heat/boil.
BTW, meals like the freeze dried type can benefit from a "cozy" That is a warm cover around the bag as it re-hydrates. Typicality my jumper or sleeping bag.
Cous Cous (you can get the flavored variety..) is quick and easy as well as gnocchi. (add pesto to that)
Franco
Franco
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 6:48 pm
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Stibb » Sat 18 Feb, 2012 3:34 pm

Thanks Franco, some good advice. I'll get a wide pot and will also make a cozy for it. I've seen the linked page (it's where i got 30g/day from although I suspect thats for very experienced users)

Franco wrote: I would work on about 10g per liter . So work out how many liters you need to heat/boil.
Franco


This is very useful :)
User avatar
Stibb
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue 24 May, 2011 4:01 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Female

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 18 Feb, 2012 4:25 pm

having a little (or a lot left) over is an inconvenience, totally running out can be worse
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 11122
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Stibb » Sat 18 Feb, 2012 5:04 pm

Hm, rounding up, we will only need 25g/day according to the 10g/L estimation. Doesn't seem much at all and a 220 canister would be plenty.

Moondog...yes, very true. I just wanted to get a better idea what other people do so I can make a reasonable estimation and then add a safety margin
User avatar
Stibb
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue 24 May, 2011 4:01 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Female

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Orion » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 4:23 am

Franco, do you really get by on just 10 grams of fuel per liter of water?

Most gas cookers have a bush efficiency of something around 50% (or less) in benign conditions. If the water you start with is at 10°C then at 50% efficiency that 10g of fuel will only heat the water to 65°C. Is that hot enough for your coffee or oatmeal? Or do you have a more efficient cooker or usually camp where the water is warmer?
Orion
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 12:33 pm
Region: Other Country

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Franco » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 7:25 am

Orion
I mostly use alchool...
With the JetBoil I get that and a bit better with warmer water , that is around 18c, I also went under the 10 g using a sort of heat exchanger /windshield with a Kovea Ti stove.
Image
The commonest mistake I see is that people turn the flame up at full power or close to it.
At that point a lot of of heat is lost up the sides.
As I already mentioned you need to optimise the pot size,power and shield the pot.
With water at 10c or lower then the consumption will go up .
Best would be to go outside with your own set up and do several boils replicating what you will do in the bush , that is do one with the amount of water you need for porridge bringing water to hot not full boil, then do the same for coffee, then the soup and then the evening meal and the soup/chocolate , letting the stove and pot cool down in between , then weigh the canister and see how much you have used...
Add some ice to the water if you need to simulate lower temps.
BTW, I found out with one of my stoves, and I suspect that to be true to most, that it took less time to bring to boil 2x 500ml than 1x 1L using the same half way setting.
So I would also suggest to heat up the water for the meal (usually around 400-600ml for 2) and the coffee/soup on two boils.. (also again because you don't need to bring the water for latter to a full boil...)
Franco
If at the end of that you work out that you just scrape in, take a larger canister.
Franco
Franco
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 6:48 pm
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 9:03 am

A lot does depend on what you actually cook as well.
Dried beans and lentils for example; need a modified technique where carrying the extra weight of a small Thermos can be a benefit in many ways.
I usually use food that only needs hot or boiling water added and eat very boring food like 2-minute noodles and instant mash.

My personal experience is limited to bigger stoves and winter use but a windshield is always worth taking, even if all it is, is a bit of roof flashing A La X-GK
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 11122
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Orion » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 9:56 am

Franco,
How much of a water temperature rise are you going for with that beer can heat exchanger? 18°C to what temperature?
I'm curious what efficiency it is helping you to achieve. I haven't, until now perhaps, seen a heat exchanger worth the weight.
Orion
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 12:33 pm
Region: Other Country

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Franco » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 10:38 am

I did that a few years ago . All I really remember is that it gave me very similar figures to the JetBoil.
It was made from three cans(15-20 g?) , the natural spring in the can's skin kept it attached to the pot.
I had to use a bit less than half power with that on.
Here is an article discussing boil time
(note 650ml of water but without the lid on and at max heat. I am confidently stating that with a lid on and the stove at half power you will get about 1 L with the same amount of gas ...)
http://www.backcountry.com/store/newsle ... toves.html

some wind tests by our Tony..
http://tonysbushwalking.wordpress.com/2 ... eld-tests/
Franco
Franco
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 6:48 pm
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Franco » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 10:55 am

Some comments from this article at BPL :
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... eport.html
(you need a subscription to read it...)

"Fuel Consumption
The most fuel-efficient stoves under optimal conditions were the Jetboil, Snow Peak GigaPower, Primus Micron, Brunton Crux, and Coleman Ultralight. The least efficient were the Coleman PowerBoost, Primus TechnoTrail, and MSR SuperFly.
Using a moderate flame reduced fuel consumption an average of 27%.
When using a moderate flame under calm conditions, the fuel efficiency to boil 1 quart of water for four of the mini-canister stoves - Brunton Crux, Coleman Ultralight, Primus Micron, and Snow Peak GigaPower - was as good as the efficiency of the Jetboil.
Boiling 1 quart of water used about 10% less fuel compared to boiling 1 pint of water at a time.
Fuel consumption doubled in windy conditions with no windscreen. The only fuel-efficient stove in direct wind was the Jetboil.
Adding a windscreen under windy conditions restored stove fuel efficiency to "only" 21% worse (on average) than efficiency under optimal conditions. The most fuel-efficient stoves in windy conditions were the Jetboil, Primus Micron, and Coleman Ultralight. The least efficient were the Coleman PowerBoost, Primus TechnoTrail, and MSR SuperFly.
Fuel consumption at full throttle decreased in cold conditions because the stoves burned slower (equivalent to a moderate flame).
Windy conditions had a disastrous effect on the fuel efficiency of all the stoves, except the Jetboil (Figure 2). Running the stoves unprotected in a 12 mph wind doubled fuel consumption (excluding the Jetboil) compared to calm conditions. The Jetboil's fuel consumption increased only 15% under windy conditions. Protecting stoves from the wind with a windscreen resulted in increased fuel consumption, on average, of 21% compared to calm conditions. The Jetboil used only 2% more fuel in windy conditions when protected by a windscreen as compared to calm conditions. The fuel efficiency of the Snow Peak GigaPower and Brunton Crux was impaired with a windscreen in direct wind, apparently due to turbulence behind the windscreen. Note: the Crux reviewer observed that its fuel efficiency in the wind improved in the field when a windscreen of a different design was used.

From the test data we calculated the "gas mileage" from a 4-ounce canister of fuel (Figure 3) to show the increased efficiency from wind protection. In direct wind, several of the stoves would boil less than 3 quarts of water from a 4-ounce canister of fuel! Bottom line, canister stoves are very sensitive to wind; the better the wind protection, the better the heating efficiency."

The article estimated a real world usage (some wind, some cold days but using windscreen/moderate flame/wide pot) to be between 6.5 L and 10.5 L of boiled water per 100g canister
5 out of 9 boiled over 8 , 3 at about 7 and one at 6.5.


So my 10g per liter is close (but optimistic) to that considering that probably half of the water does not need to reach 100c . Of course again you MUST consider how I do it...
Franco
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 6:48 pm
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Stibb » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 12:11 pm

Would my old Whisperlite windshield do any good or would it even hamper the performance (turbulence??) of the 100T?

I think it's 62 g. Would it offset the extra fuel use under "normal" conditions (whatever that means in Tas) ?
User avatar
Stibb
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue 24 May, 2011 4:01 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Female

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 12:59 pm

From my experience in the snow and other cold conditions a windshield is always worth taking, there are a lot of lightweight windshields but the best I ever found were the SIGG which is why I have a request for a sale.

Aluminium flashing works well, if you want some I will send you some, postage plus a dollar
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 11122
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby corvus » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 8:51 pm

Stibb wrote:Would my old Whisperlite windshield do any good or would it even hamper the performance (turbulence??) of the 100T?

I think it's 62 g. Would it offset the extra fuel use under "normal" conditions (whatever that means in Tas) ?


G'day Stibb,
All of that advice is excellent and informative (if a wee bit technical) :) however I have used a FMS 100T in Tasmanian Winter and Summer conditions and know that it works well, is conservative with gas and does not always need an extra wind screen as it has one built in .
Gas use is really subjective which you are now aware of after all the advice so all I can add is that an extra 230g canister only weighs 364g full also your Sigg windshield is not so heavy if you want to use it :)

As an aside as far as I am aware the gas canisters I purchase are 230g nett so where does this 220 g creep in from :lol:
corvus
collige virgo rosas
User avatar
corvus
Vercundus gearus-freakius
Vercundus gearus-freakius
 
Posts: 5488
Joined: Mon 23 Apr, 2007 7:24 pm
Location: Devonport
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Stibb » Sun 19 Feb, 2012 9:42 pm

corvus wrote: so where does this 220 g creep in from :lol:
corvus

I just invented them :wink:

Anyway, with clever use it looks like a 230g will be more than enough even if we use a bit more than 10g/L. Will consider throwing in an extra 100g just in case as it will be our first time using the stove in the field

Edit. Oh, actually, this is where I got it from
The canister comes in a miniature 100g size, a squat 220 g size, and a tall 450 g size

from
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_G ... m#Canister
User avatar
Stibb
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue 24 May, 2011 4:01 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Female

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Son of a Beach » Mon 20 Feb, 2012 7:03 am

I've just recently been out bush for 14 days. My first 230g canister lasted for 10 days. I cooked porridge for breakfast for about 7 of those first 10 days (simmer for about 5 minutes) and dehydrated dinners every night (simmer for about 5 minutes). I had 2 minute noodles for lunch twice (simmer for 2 minutes), and a cup of tea some days (boil only).

Note that I NEVER turn the gas on very much. This means a slower boil time, but it uses MUCH less gas.

I ALWAYS take at least one full can of gas more than I think I'll need. They don't weigh much (to me), and I'd rather have too much, than not enough, and there are instances of gas canister valves failing in the field (rare, but could be a big problem if it does happen).

Additionally, if I have a partly used gas canister at home, I ALWAYS take it with me whether the trip is a short one or a long one, and I ALWAYS use the partly used canister first. Again, it's not a big weight burden (to me), and this way, I never have more than 1 partly used canister at home.

(If I end up with a canister that I think is very nearly empty, then I'll use it to boil water for tea at home until it really does run out).
Son of a Beach
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 6921
Joined: Thu 01 Mar, 2007 7:55 am
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Bit Map (NIXANZ)
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby corvus » Mon 20 Feb, 2012 6:20 pm

I am with SOB and always take an extra used canister with me :)
Good non scientific rule of thumb is a full 230 g canister =364g ,empty 135g = 227 g of gas and I may be pedantic but I do weigh my canisters after each walk so know what is worth taking and those with very little gas are used to "roast capsicum" over one of my stoves :)
corvus
Last edited by corvus on Tue 21 Feb, 2012 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
collige virgo rosas
User avatar
corvus
Vercundus gearus-freakius
Vercundus gearus-freakius
 
Posts: 5488
Joined: Mon 23 Apr, 2007 7:24 pm
Location: Devonport
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Orion » Tue 21 Feb, 2012 7:20 am

Franco wrote:I did that a few years ago . All I really remember is that it gave me very similar figures to the JetBoil.

Franco, thank you for the response. It sounds like you use a combination of warmer water, improved stove efficiency, and a lower cooking temperature. All three! I can't adjust the water temperature and I'm not sure that I want lukewarm coffee or cooking water. That leaves stove efficiency.

I'm intrigued that by using 20g of aluminum scavanged from a few beer cans you were able to achieve efficiency similar to that of the Jetboil. With its engineering, extra weight, and added cost, how is this possible?

I have tested my own stove in the past and could not exceed 60% efficiency, nowhere near the 80% that Jetboil claims. What am I doing wrong? I have a wide aluminum pot (15 cm base), I am heating only 0.5 liters of water at a time, I have one of the supposedly more efficient stoves, and I keep the flame down to a medium level.

Last night I made a "heat exchanger", modeled after the one in your photo above.
Then I did some efficiency tests, heating 0.5l water a total of 80°C with a medium flame and the following additions:

1. Foil windscreen (57% efficiency)
2. Heat exchanger (56% efficiency)
3. Naked stove (59% efficiency)

Adding this heat exchanger provided no improvement. Under ideal conditions the unadorned stove did just as well. In windy conditions a windscreen or heat exchanger would be an improvement over a naked stove, but it's hard to believe that it would do better than in ideal conditions. Quite the opposite, which is why I've measured efficiencies of around 50% or less in the field. BPL co-founder Ryan Jordan found the same to be the case on a summer walk a few years ago (his field efficiency was 48%).

So I'm confused... how did you match the performance of Jetboil?
Orion
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 12:33 pm
Region: Other Country

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Franco » Tue 21 Feb, 2012 7:50 am

I have no idea of the why, I just remember doing some boils with the JetBoil , measuring the gas used and then doing the same with my set up.
I was using the Kovea Ti burner (also sold by SnowPeak and a couple of others at the time) and I am pretty sure that power was under half .
BTW, I was not comparing claimed figures(from JetBoil) just the figures I was getting...
From memory at around half power it started to create some turbulence inside the shield.
I ended up using the set up on a few trips only because I then switched to metho, first with the White Box then the Caldera Cone.
Franco
Franco
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 6:48 pm
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Orion » Tue 21 Feb, 2012 8:47 am

I see. So one possibility is that your Jetboil was underperforming. Or maybe it was a combination of lousy Jetboil performance and better than average performance due to your beer can thing.

Too bad, I was hoping for some sort of magic. At present I cannot get a liter of hot water out of just 10g of fuel. I find that in the field I need around 15g and as much as 20g when using my narrow solo pot.

If I spent the $25 to gain access to those BPL articles would I be able to build a Jetboil out of a few beer cans?
Orion
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 12:33 pm
Region: Other Country

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby Franco » Tue 21 Feb, 2012 9:39 am

No, but you would be supporting the forum that has the most technical reviews and maybe benefit from the data published there.
I find that at BPL there is less of a gang mentality than at some other forum although this one is very close now and way better than others.
One of the reasons why I ended up using the Caldera Cone was because I was getting, with metho, very conflicting results using different burners/pot and wind screen combos.
At times I would hit on what I thought was the ideal compromise between time and fuel used only to change dramatically with different water temp or wind or something.
(the pot to windscreen distance was very tricky to get right and hard to replicate in the bush because of wind or uneven ground)
The CC gives me pretty consistent results (somewhat like a more efficient Trangia kit) and that is what many like with the JetBoil.
At some point I had some very thin Ti foil that I could have turned into a similar windscreen to the soft drink can version. That would have increased the life span but again by then I had lost interest in gas.
I do however use gas on snow using a shorter aluminum Caldera Cone opened around the pot .
(It was meant to work assembled using a 1.3L pot, however to melt snow I had to turn the heat up and melted a hole in the cone after a few uses. The Ti version would have worked..)

For that take plenty of gas, no gram counting...
Franco
Franco
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 6:48 pm
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gas stove: how much fuel to bring

Postby north-north-west » Sat 24 Mar, 2012 12:05 pm

I just returned from four and a half weeks in Tassie. During that time all my bushwalking cooking was done from one single 230g cylinder - with the pot cosy system. Two nights in the Tyndalls, one at Mt Field, 11 in the Southern Ranges/South Coast, two in the Pictons and one at Lake Sydney, plus a couple of quick meals while car camping. No breakfast or coffee, just hot soup and hot meal each night. It's not bad going, and that pot cosy business saves a lot of gas.
The whole time I carried an extra cylinder in case the first one ran out, but there's still a little bit left . . .
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 15412
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania


Return to Equipment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests