Critiquing gear Do manufacturers ever listen??

[Moondog55]

Just got back from an overnite in the Northern Adirondacks.
I got my MD Alpettes as a Gore warranty replacement and while I have never considered them anywhere near as good as the WE bib & brace that died ( Gore problem not a makers fault) this trip at minus 20C really showed up all the design flaws.
Is the Telemark resort skiing market such a high percentage of sales that back country skiers and mountaineers can be simply ignored??
If I had been out for a week in these pants they may have wound up killing me; as they are such single purpose garment they are not flexible in their manner of use.
Is it worth complaining? I get the feeling from mail and email I have sent other Australian makers that most simply do not care

[blacksheep]

the good ones listen.

[Moondog55]

If they listen then perhaps what I want is just too small a market volume to be worth making.

[Ent]

Hi

I do wonder if they listen. A few things constantly reappear over the forums worldwide.

1. Most if not nearly all tents are built for a standard size person.
2. Knee length (proper knee length not just a bit longer) rain jackets simply just do not appear with the only one I can think of being one made by a NZ maker of dairy gear. Fisher folk and bird watchers long for them as well.
3. Female clothing outside the petite range.
4. Footwear stopping at size 47 for males and 43 for female fit in many brands.
5. Many packs having so many straps hanging off them I wonder if anyone can use them all. And packs with drink bottle holder that do not work once the pack is stuffed full. One Planet is brilliant for having two pockets that are not compromised by a full pack load but but most packs are not.
6. Packs not having a map place that you can get at with the pack on.
7. Does anyone make a map case that fits standard size maps with wrecking them by folding them to fit in weird ways? Also most map cases are way too heavy and do not fold neatly. Some have flexible plastic but a cluttered with clips, etc.
8. Air release valve dry bags have now disappeared off the market.
9. Does anyone make a pot with a base that is thicker in the center and thins out towards the walls? Such thing would help greatly with the narrow flames of most sit on top stoves.
10. Many headlamps start off at full then need to be clicked down and one extra click you get the strobe setting

The trouble is most gear is aimed at a mass market. This is fine for many people but even then a proper bushwalking shirt and pants have become hard to get replaced by "travel" wear. Very rarely do you see long and short fittings in clothes. Basically, the trend with single manufacturer stores is one size fits all. In older days you had a choice of manufacturers so could occasionally find one that suited.

It is interesting to see when a person says this tent is poor for this reason or gaiter A has this fault what is the response

Sure there are some great firms out there and the trick is to find them. Trouble is the traditional bushwalking shops are been pushed out by single brand multinational chains aiming at the mass market. Thank goodness for the Internet

Cheers

[blacksheep]

Ent, you sound so much like a guy called Brett that used to post in here.

[Ent]

Hi Cam from Macpac.

Just to give an idea of recent online purchases.

1. Artyex (not sure on the spelling) woollen boxer shorts. Reason, proper fitted boxer shorts with longer legs that stop chaffing. Much better than what is passed off elsewhere and that is Icebreaker, etc, so nothing personal. Original NZ Icebreaker boxers were fantastic but all mine have finally been worn out.
2. Mountain Hardware clothes, they have long fittings and even their normal sizing is for tall rather than obsess people in XL (36 pants) and XXL (jackets) sizing
3. Hilleberg tents but looking long and hard at a few tents that USA forums tall members have posted about that are even longer. Nice reading that 6'8" people have at least some choice so at 6'3.5" I should be right.
4. WM mega-lite 6'6" sleeping bag. When WM say 6'6" they mean 6'6" people
5. Long Neo Air as shops only locally stock the regular size and faster plus much cheaper to get direct from USA.
6. Rab Event wet weather pants. Love RAB's fitting profile as again tall rather than obsess fittings in XL and XXL and kick myself that I brought the Montane Event jacket rather than a Rab. Yes the whole world is complaining about the poor hood design of my model. Still its DWR coating kicks the butt of another brand you might be familiar with
7. Spare pair of Black Diamond poles. Honestly, they are brilliant. Do not jamb, so quick to adjust with the flick lock system, do not slip, have not broken one yet despite some extreme use. They are gradually taking over with the group that I walk with. Actually nobody has broken one yet. Why online, you have choice of many different models that are not imported or stocked in Australia.

Actually, I must thank you as I am rapidly discovering a multitude of specialist gear manufacturers plus a few Australian firms that make great gear. If people look and research using this site amongst others there are plenty better and sometimes cheaper options than a single brand store offers. The UL mob can be thanked as they have proven to manufacturers that you can build an online business providing that you keep in touch with your market. And UL would have to be the fastest moving market. More and more traditional type gear makers are doing the same so you do not need to be UL to get better options.

Still have not found any cookware with variable thickness to control the hot spot but did get a tougher set from USA. ALoksak bags sourced by local Scout shop are the best map cases that I have found. Just wish they were not so overprinted as this obscures the map. Amazing one size actually fits local 1:25000 maps like it was made for it.

A lot of gear is ok but something as simple as say Princeton-tech reversing the head lamp power sequence and removing strobe from it would be great. Trouble is they, and many established brands, do not listern or are too fixed in their ways to turn things around.

Cheers

[Nuts]

Ha ha, i'd agree some things are just poorly made. The whinge about sizes though seems to come from a public service mind set. These guys are Manufacturers and in a democratic capatilist society beats me how they can be Expected to do anything not profit driven? Yet it comes up time and again like some sort of responsibility to cater for odd shaped or sized. Just as its now seen as a 'right' to access O/S prices or better.


My Montane event pants are lloongg. The RAB jackets are wearing better than the Montane so far though. There are some excellent chaff creams available?

[Nuts]

The left handed shop was a hit, how about the 'odd (shaped or sized) outdoor athlete shop'?
Maybe manufacturers could offer the option to buy gear made with slave labour (or not) with corresponding prices ( )

[Moondog55]

Critique of MD Alpettes


Too heavy
Designed for resort skiing not alpine touring of mountaineering
Pockets too small to be useful for holding gloves mittens beanie etc and there are not enough pockets, the pockets on the left thigh is just big enough to hold a wallet of ski pass but nothing useful.
Zippered fly is not long enough and uses a very harsh Velcro which is extremely painful to sensitive skin in cold weather.
Zipper flap is sealed at the bottom in the horizontal direction which traps wind-blown snow and ice when the flap is open which then melts and has nowhere to escape and filters through the zipper itself wetting the layers underneath.

Zipper is far too short which makes urination very difficult when wearing more than one layer of clothing, the zip is 100mm short of the end of the zipper flap
Sizing is far too skimpy around the waist to allow sufficient insulation for cold weather,
The trousers are resort skiing oriented and useless if you use boots with Supergaiters (which I do) and the excess fabric and fasteners at the ankle is too full to allow the use of insulated overtrousers like the Patagonia Micropuff pants

[slparker]

Ok, apologies at the outset... this is nothing to do with bushwalking....but, why does every daypack designed for cycling (including deuter, camelback etc) have shoulder straps that when tightened have the excess flap about in the wind beating the rider mercilessly? A 2c elastic strap at the bottom (for the excess to fit through) would probably fix this....

[ollster]

Ok, apologies at the outset... this is nothing to do with bushwalking....but, why does every daypack designed for cycling (including deuter, camelback etc) have shoulder straps that when tightened have the excess flap about in the wind beating the rider mercilessly? A 2c elastic strap at the bottom (for the excess to fit through) would probably fix this....

My camelback (older HAWG, maybe 2005 model) has little velcro straps attached at right angles to the webbing straps so they can be rolled up and velcroed over.

[photohiker]

[icemancometh]

Hi

I do wonder if they listen. A few things constantly reappear over the forums worldwide.

1. Most if not nearly all tents are built for a standard size person. AHA
2. Knee length (proper knee length not just a bit longer) rain jackets simply just do not appear with the only one I can think of being one made by a NZ maker of dairy gear. Fisher folk and bird watchers long for them as well.
3. Female clothing outside the petite range.
4. Footwear stopping at size 47 for males and 43 for female fit in many brands.
5. Many packs having so many straps hanging off them I wonder if anyone can use them all. And packs with drink bottle holder that do not work once the pack is stuffed full. One Planet is brilliant for having two pockets that are not compromised by a full pack load but but most packs are not. AGREE re straps but not re snow collectors, I mean 'drink holders'-hate the damn things...get a bladder


The trouble is most gear is aimed at a mass market...

Sure there are some great firms out there and the trick is to find them. Trouble is the traditional bushwalking shops are been pushed out by single brand multinational chains aiming at the mass market. Thank goodness for the Internet

Cheers

1 What about a decent fitting hood for people with longer necks? How hard would it be to add an inch or some stretch?

The best fitting (helmet) hoods I've found to date are NWA Spider Hoody and Marmot Hyper Jacket. All other so called helmet hoods I've seen are for people 6' and below with normal or no necks.

2 OR drop tails in jackets? Montane used to do a decent one but sadly their obsession with being able to claim to have the lightest such and such in that category has made them snip these things off to save 10g or whatever it is. Sure it's lighter, but less functional, ie wind gets up my back and I'm cold!

3 Removable lids on packs...so much weight for so little use...hate them most of the time too. Seems to be only good for cold cold weather use (Water bottles) and first aid kits.

Rant over.

Edit: but that's the problem isn't it? Everyone has different preferences so how are the mass manufacturer's supposed to know?
It's easy to get it 'wrong' but hard to get it 'right' even for the majority of your customer base, otherwise we'd all be buying the same stuff. Hence why we need to either modify post purchase, DIY or get custom gear

[corvus]

MD actually do sell a long Raincoat and from what I have been told it is the result of requests from Tasmanian walkers for a longer coat.
corvus

[Strider]

MD actually do sell a long Raincoat and from what I have been told it is the result of requests from Tasmanian walkers for a longer coat.
corvus

Not quite knee length though...

http://www.mountaindesigns.com/online-s ... odID=20426

[corvus]

I was referring to this one not the Stratus you must do your homework b4 posting
http://www.mountaindesigns.com/search.a ... h=Loongana
corvus

[Strider]

I was referring to this one not the Stratus you must do your homework b4 posting
http://www.mountaindesigns.com/search.a ... h=Loongana
corvus

Thats a new one for me

Shame its low-end fabric...

[corvus]

It was a new one to me but was mentioned on this forum so I went looking for it, MD Devonport had good stock ,cannot comment on the Fabric as I have never used it however it looked and felt OK and the price was good

[Jellybean]

The whinge about sizes though seems to come from a public service mind set. These guys are Manufacturers and in a democratic capatilist society beats me how they can be Expected to do anything not profit driven? Yet it comes up time and again like some sort of responsibility to cater for odd shaped or sized.

Have to agree.

Also have to disagree with the comment about women's outdoor clothing not being available in anything but petite sizes. I'm hardly petite (185cm) and never have any problems finding women's outdoor clothing that fits well!?

[Ent]

Ha ha, i'd agree some things are just poorly made. The whinge about sizes though seems to come from a public service mind set. These guys are Manufacturers and in a democratic capatilist society beats me how they can be Expected to do anything not profit driven? Yet it comes up time and again like some sort of responsibility to cater for odd shaped or sized. Just as its now seen as a 'right' to access O/S prices or better.
My Montane event pants are lloongg. The RAB jackets are wearing better than the Montane so far though. There are some excellent chaff creams available?

A free society that allows people to wander naked, hey? Just remove the export restrictions and allow tall folks to get the long sizing without the local distributors deciding what sells and does not sell. Nuts the sizings are available just that export restrictions from the States make it hard to get the stuff, and restrictions are neither free nor democratic No you are short not that the pants are long

Funny in my business world I can get just about any fit of suit but not clothes in my leisure world Why can I get short, regular, and long jeans but one fit is meant for all with bushwalking gear, in Australia. As for tent it is a common question amongst the tall.

The comment on women's clothing comes from a friend that has to trek from shop to shop in search of the sizing.

Cheers

[JohnM]

Funny in my business world I can get just about any fit of suit but not clothes in my leisure world Why can I get short, regular, and long jeans but one fit is meant for all with bushwalking gear, in Australia.

Cheers

Easy. There's a huge market for suits, and an even bigger market for jeans. Bushwalking is a very niche leisure activity, and manufacturers and retailers would go broke trying to cater to every possible size and permutation. Just ain't gonna happen.

[Moondog55]

BS
Walking and climbing is HUGE
The worldwide market is in the billions, just that we only seem to get the dregs here or the makers are still trying the uni-sex "one size/style fits most" approach.
The biggest problem I see is that the makers are no longer users, or they are farming out production to Chinese factories and no longer making their own patterns.
My MD sallopettes are a direct copy of the current Patagonia design which is also totally useless for touring or HA climbing.

It seems makers cannot decide who to sell to ; the fashion/travelling market or real users whose life may depend on the quality of design and manufacture of a garment. I am thinking of returning my overpants to MD for a full refund using the "NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE" criteria

[gayet]

...... I'm hardly petite (185cm) and never have any problems finding women's outdoor clothing that fits well!?

Please tell me where? I'm just under 180cm and can only find things that swim around me and are still too short in the legs or arms. To get close to a reasonable fit around, the articulated knees are well above my actual knee and sleeves barely make the end of the ulna/radius. And I definitely do cast a shadow....

[JohnM]

Yes but Walking and climbing is NOT huge in Australia. It's niche. You can't expect retailers to cater to every single one of us. They just couldn't afford it.

Hell, people here already go apoplectic about retail prices of hiking gear in our stores. Expand your floor stock by 50% and you'll have to charge even more and no-one will buy from you and you'll go bust.

It's just retail business basics.
I'm not saying it's a great system, but you just can't expect unlimited retail choice in a range that caters to a tiny minority.

[Jellybean]

...... I'm hardly petite (185cm) and never have any problems finding women's outdoor clothing that fits well!?

Please tell me where? I'm just under 180cm and can only find things that swim around me and are still too short in the legs or arms. To get close to a reasonable fit around, the articulated knees are well above my actual knee and sleeves barely make the end of the ulna/radius. And I definitely do cast a shadow....

Depends what you are looking for but here are some examples (there's plenty more):
- Hiking pants (convertible or not) - North Face and Columbia
- Shorts (above plus Macpac)
- Long sleeve tops - base layers, mid layers (Montane, Macpac, Icebreaker - Icebreaker I normally need to go one size up to get length)
- Synthetic insulated top (Patagonia Nano Puff)
- Shells (Montane - womens jackets in pants; also have male version in Macpac Prophet jacket and One Planet pants)
- Socks (Smartwool)
- Shoes/boots (womens versions) - Inov8, Keen, Asolo, Zamberlan

I buy the majority of my gear on-line from the US or the UK (for the greater range and cost savings and because I don't have time to go shopping). Initially some of the sizing was trial and error but you can avoid most errors through a it of research and educated guessing and I accept that, with the savings made by buying on-line/os, I can afford a return here or there (I made some errors initially but find I now am accuate with sizings of new gear). (I'm slim/athletic build).

[Nuts]

No you are short not that the pants are long

Why such viscious personal attacks? I'd always felt pretty average , in fact quickly attained wikiknowledge makes me taller than average (just) in all but a few Nordic countries (we wont mention them though)..
Nope, the pants are lllooonnngg... just trying to help

I guess people have all levels of what is acceptable. Ive walked with people who are tall and used nallos without mentioning much drama.Just think of the weight saved

[Ent]

Yes but Walking and climbing is NOT huge in Australia. It's niche. You can't expect retailers to cater to every single one of us. They just couldn't afford it.

Hell, people here already go apoplectic about retail prices of hiking gear in our stores. Expand your floor stock by 50% and you'll have to charge even more and no-one will buy from you and you'll go bust.

It's just retail business basics.
I'm not saying it's a great system, but you just can't expect unlimited retail choice in a range that caters to a tiny minority.

Actually, it does cater for the tiny "majority" or "standard man/women". The issue I have is one brand shops that have sizing derived from standard population models and appear to apply this across all items. For XL and XXL it means huge gut. Heck at 110 kilograms and 6'3.5" I should be complaining that jackets are too tight etc, but I am not, in fact the opposite. When I was 90 kilograms it was just absurd as size 35 waist means everything is way too short. The mass market suit shops have much the same issue. Luckily, at least many of the older style mens clothing shops are still around but sadly not so much for the bushwalking shops.

When MD was locally based their XL sizing for jackets was near perfect for me. Then suddenly it was not. A look at the label showed made in China. What had happen is MD “man” had changed to “China man” or more likely “standard man”. And for those that argue, more than happy to overlay my MD Aussie made jackets over the China made ones to prove this and post the photographs if they buy the jackets to compare against. I will not be buying something that does not fit

PP is about the last outpost where I can get bushwalking clothes to fit. Sure, I need to haunt the racks looking for Mountain Hardware and the even rarer long fits. It is not so much economic cost drivers but laziness that comes from single brand thinking. Get 80% of the world through your store and business is great, if you are the only brand in the market. Trouble is there is MD, MacPac, Snowgum and Anaconda all aiming at the 80% market. Along with a few other smaller chains. PP is even heading this way. This means that especially that one brand shops are tearing themselves to pieces and profit warnings being issued for the biggest.

MD when an independent franshiee was worthwhile visiting for WE and One Planet packs along with other bits and pieces such as Mammut as that is a slimmer longer fit. Now, it is MD “standard man” only. O’well at least I have the internet but then I face “do not ship to Australia” bans so our greedy distributors (not the shops) can be lazy and order the same thing. Why was the Neo-air not available for a long time in Australia? I am told it was so the local distributor could run down their stock of Pro-lites. Notice the delay in the new mat Looks like Cascade Design is doing the same thing, as why buy a Neo-air or the warmer heavier version when the one mat is better. You can see the special overseas going on, but not in Australia

People might remember the huge argument that Australian Army boots made locally were shocking with soldiers having to buy USA and German Army ones with their own money. Reason, our supply department had decided to reduce the size range and did not give a stuff on the pain and suffering that this caused. The manufacturing company was very happy to make the broader range. What we have in Australia is distributors that are forcing people to wear their limited imported sizing through "do not ship instructions" and one brand stores aiming for the mass market. Look at merino tops. The stitching on many is now running on the top of the shoulder where in the past is was done to avoid pack rub. Reason, if you print a graphic design on a top on it you can sell it to both bushwalking and travel market. Merino underpants are just now fashion statements with many local and NZ brand names. Sure Icebreaker has lovely models that more is less but really I am after underwear that stops chaffing.

Look it was possible ten or more years ago to fit out a much smaller market so ecomic and "democracy" have nothing to do with sizing. It is greed and lazyiness of the single brand names. I will bet the "brick" that if Kathmandu do variable sizing then before long the me-toos will do the same.

Cheers

PS Short is a descriptive term, not a derogative one. Have I struck a nerve?

[Nuts]

Yes, i'm shattered, hanging by the ankles as we speak
(but about the word 'free', I never used that in fact that was the point )

Moondog, I have tried some wet weather gear that fits the description, no room for anything other than silk undies. Maybe you should post your review seperately so its not lost?

[Moondog55]

When Mountain Designs was owned and run by a "Climber" the gear was superb and it fitted, I mean Rick was tall and broad across the shoulders and his XL was almost my XL.
Now MD gear is sized for so called "Standard" man and fits me really badly.
Nuts I will redo the revue of the gear in the hope it stops others from making a bad mistake, but in the meantime while I am here in the USA I'll pick-up the :"Green Pepper" Bib & Brace pattern and make my own when I get home.

[sthughes]

Yeah I bought a shirt yesterday. I had to choose between a large that was almost too short in the sleeves but otherwise good, or go to an XL on which the sleeves were great but the waist/chest was like a tent! And I'm bordering on obese, so that's just stupid. Is the "standard" "outdoors enthusiast" with a just under 6 foot arm span really like 110+kg? If it is then okay, but just seems unlikely.

Coming from a small town I find the foreign companies (Cascade Designs, Black Diamond etc.) trade embargo just annoying. Even if I am willing to pay the massivley inflated local prices I have to dive at least three hours return (more like 7+) to find a stockist. But I am not allowed to buy online!

I was referring to this one not the Stratus you must do your homework b4 posting
http://www.mountaindesigns.com/search.a ... h=Loongana
corvus

Nice find I am very tempted at $150. Shame I have already forked out for my under length, over priced, crappy DWR'd Macpac Hollyford. (Edit: Which by the way is also an XL and sized like a tent from chest down!) But at least I look more fashionable.