Information needed Berghaus Ulvetanna sleeping bag

[Moondog55]

I bought this last month and I think I paid a fair price
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28016
What I have been unable to do is find any information about the bags design rationale or any reviews of the bag, not anywhere.
Berghaus has been contacted and customer service was less than helpful. My conjecture is that Berghaus simply put their name on a generic design from a reputable Chinese factory.
The workmanship in this bag is not of the same quality as from Western Mountaineering or even Sea to Summit, good but not excellent.
So if you have better search expertise than I seem to have and are able to help with finding more information about the bag I would appreciate the help.
I have used the bag up at Falls Creek, outside at -8C on my foam pad, I was cold; as the bag, while well filled, has a couple of design flaws or factory sewing mistakes. Apart from being huge which means a lot of space that needs to be warmed up the face ruff is on the wrong side of the zip which means fabric gets caught and the zipper is hard to close. Also the zip end has no catch/clip or velcro to hold the bag closed and the slide on the zipper moves so freely the zip keeps opening up; letting all the warm air out.
I did not last the nite out; at about 0300 the sky clouded over and it started to rain and the bag got wet from a combination of rain and melting spindrift. luckily the Dryloft down worked as it should and it dried out in the hut at Pretty Valley in a day. Not DriLoft fabric I meant to write HydroDown, the treatment Berghaus use to make down water resistant
The neck and shoulder cuff internally is too small and way under-filled for sleeping in just base layers and while it is labelled as a -40C bag my feeling is that I would not be safe and warm at that temperature in this bag unless I was wearing more cold weather clothing to fill in all that space, similar to my current J&H bags but even more so as I can probably fit my Everest Summit bag inside this although I haven't tried that yet, nor have I yet tried to fit inside wearing any of my down clothing
The bag is not however so large that my current XL bivvy bag or my UL Nunatak overquilt cannot be used with it

[wildwanderer]

I found this https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... 20968.html
It states the temp conditions the bag is designed for and also references there lifetime guarantee.

A lifetime of adventure. Guaranteed. Berghaus products can do (almost) anything
For 50 years, Berghaus has been committed to endless innovation and the relentless pursuit of excellence. We believe passionately that our products make a real difference to the people who use them – and we guarantee our gear will stand up to the task it’s intended for (yes, that does rule out using your jacket as a paragliding sail).

So if the bag is not performing to spec you could argue that their guarantee should apply.

Note I dont think dryloft/pertex outer is designed to keep the rain/snow melt out. Its purpose is stop tent wall condensation etc.

[Moondog55]

I meant to say DryDown I'll edit the original post

[Franco]

Sounds like it was an in house designed product, according to this :
https://outdoorsmagic.com/news/berghaus ... 013-scoop/
some comments on it here :
https://p-upload.facebook.com/groups/qu ... 9213617544

[Moondog55]

Thanx Franco I just sent a message to the seller of that particular bag

[Moondog55]

Feeling a little better thanx to that link Franco
It seems that when it gets colder than -25C the bag gets much better and that only base layers needed at that temperature. So making allowance for my age and lowered sleeping MET it should be fine for Canada and Alaska. I'll take some pictures showing the size difference between my J&H and this one

[jdeks]

Somehting aint right here. I've seen these bags. If you were cold at -8, something else was going on

You said you slept on a 'foam pad' - what kind of pad was this?

What do you mean by shoulder/neck cuffs were 'too small'?

Have you given the bag a good wash? "underfilled" cuffs can often just be dirty down failing to loft fully.

Did you have the hood done up and cinched up? Snug fit around the face usually stops zip spread and renders the shoulder cuffs largely irrelevant in terms of warmth anyway.

But by far and away the biggest problem - these things arent NOT supposed to just be used out in the exposed elements.... the shells aren't windproof, and certaily not waterproof. Even a slight breeze is going to permeate the shell and wreak havoc with convective insulation. Precipitation will stat evaporative cooling and ruin your loft.

Get it cleaned, use a thicker pad, inside a tend, and do everything up like you're in an arctic storm. There sort of bags aren't supposed to be used in half measurres.

[Moondog55]

Bag is brand new and unused until I tried it out and using a bag in the open is my best way of determining performance, been trialing bags this way for 40 years, it works.
using them in exposed positions seems to be very common in the Antarctic too
Of course I was cold, it is so big the bubble of warm air cannot be contained inside it, due as I said to the neck collar being underfilled and too small in size and the zipper opening up. In this instance tightening up the face hole just put more pressure on the zipper I think. neck collar is only 70mm deep, it would work better for me if it was double that depth
Pertex Endurance is similar to Robic, a very thin, breathable but highly water resistant microporous PU coating on the inside of the fabric, very much windproof but not proof against spindrift getting through the small openings and under the bag. naturally a HH of 900mm isn't going to stop water getting through under compression and melted snow is cold. Worst case scenario is your tent catches fire and you only have a bag.
Could you please outline your experience jdeks as I need some more trialing of gear before I go and I appreciate other peoples Arctic/Antarctic/HA experience and I'd like to know where you encountered the bags as they do seem to be quite rare.
As for the pad it was what we all use for cheap, $8- from K-Mart and I used it because I wanted to push the bags limits. Remembering too I need a bag much warmer than somebody 25YO due to age related lowering of sleeping MET, 5C for every decade after 30/35 YO so what is a -40C bag for a 25YO is only a -25C bag for an old crock like me. But personally I think that the bellows effect due to the zipper opening and the huge internal volume of the underlofting bag was the real problem.
As I said above the underlofting seems to be a well know phenomenon in big bags although I wasn't aware of it
Per your comment, naturally I wouldn't be likely to use a bag naked without a tent and without a full mattress system, even so far as to use a full Goretex bivvy or UL synthetic overbag but as we all know "S**t happens"

[Moondog55]

Anyway here are some photos comparing th eloft and size of the Berghaus bag compared to my old UL Everest summit bag from J&H, this is the unrejuvenated bag

[wildwanderer]

You mentioned the neck collar is too tight. Maybe the bag is to small for your neck/shoulder size? (sorry I realise thats not very helpful)

I did read on the page posted by Franco https://outdoorsmagic.com/news/berghaus ... 013-scoop/ that the bag was made to be compatible with their down suit of the same name. So perhaps the bag is sized for a smaller person wearing a down suit.

You could solve the the spare air space with a down jacket. The tight collar is going to be tricky however. Unravelling zipper can be fixed by sewing on a velco flap closure.

jdeks idea of washing the bag might be worth a try.. I always expereince significantly more loft (and warmth) after I wash a bag.

[Moondog55]

Yes so have I but the bag is brand new and washing will not help.
Perhaps I phrased it wrongly, the collar isn't too tight, it is the opposite, it is too small /shallow so I can't tighten it up enough A small clasp or velcro tab is going to be sewed on very soon to stop the zipper opening up,
It is a good bag although it is not as good as a FF Snowy Owl, perhaps it is the equivalent of the FF Snow Goose as they share similar fill weight and almost comparable down
I was concerned it would not be good enough but with a decent down parka I have to assume it will be warm enough to survive a night of -55C.

[wildwanderer]

Yes so have I but the bag is brand new and washing will not help.
.

When you say new.. Its a 2nd hand bag which hasnt been slept in.. but how long has it been stored for? and in what enviroment. If it was a dusty one or perhaps salty (I saw a surf board bag in the original sellers pic) then perhaps the down needs a good wash even though it hasnt been slept in.

[Moondog55]

Yes so have I but the bag is brand new and washing will not help.
.

When you say new.. Its a 2nd hand bag which hasnt been slept in.. but how long has it been stored for? and in what enviroment. If it was a dusty one or perhaps salty (I saw a surf board bag in the original sellers pic) then perhaps the down needs a good wash even though it hasnt been slept in.

Quite sure it doesn't need washing. I did take it to the landromat tho when I came home and gave it a longish tumble on warm to make sure it was dry

[jdeks]

I've not used this particular bag in anger myself. I've hopped in one at a mates place prior to him taking it off to NZ for a week's alpineering course. So I've no personal idea what it was like in the cold, but I DO remember his comments on return was 'it was big and heavy and too hot' and he sold it right after.

I'm comparing it to roughly equivalent Mont bag I had for some years, which I bought in my younger years for some training courses, assuming "Warmest is bestest". Had very similar initial experiences with it initally failing to live up to ratings because of improper use on my part (lazy setup, wrong mat, wrong clothes). Once I figured it out, it was usually too hot and had to sell it. Yes, it was big enough to fit me in twice (space room in a bag wont actually harm its insulation capacity, contrary to common belief).

If you think it's clean, I'll take you word for it. If the next collar doesn't fit, well, I'll take you word for it too (mine was never neck-size either. But as far as I'm concerned, without a shadow of a doubt, THIS is the cause of your problems:

As for the pad it was what we all use for cheap, $8- from K-Mart and I used it because I wanted to push the bags limits. "

So....You deliberately tried to 'push the bags limits', with a woefully inadequate mat, in subzero conditions, and then wonder why you were so cold?

It doesn't matter HOW much bag you stick on top, if you've only got $8 worth of KMart foam between you and frozen ground, you've rendered the limits of your bag entirely irrelevant.

Pairing an $8 mat with a $1000 + arctic-grade expedition bag is just shooting yourself in the footbox. Any further speculation is pointless, until you test it on a mat that's designed for the same sort of conditions as the bag.

[jdeks]

Oh and FYI - that 'neck' baffle isn't actually supposed to cinch up right round your neck, it's only supposed to just close over the top of your shoulders.

It's not so much as to 'keep warm air in' around you body (hood seal should do that) as it it to keep the shoulder taper of the bag located where it's supposed to be, and keep the bag with you as you roll. Pull it too tight (ie right around your neck), and you actually pull the shoulder baffles into your shoulders and squish the down from inside out

[Moondog55]

All true but that $8- from K-Mart is usually enough here at -5C, they are 12mm thick CCF after all; I usually do use more mattress [ much more really] but that is for comforts sake mainly not because I necessarily need the warmth. But I have used the other bag in the picture in similar circumstances and been warm enough and I have survived colder nights recently with much less gear although I did shiver a lot and got very little real sleep
My experience must be very different to yours jdeks as I have found excess room and pumping; AKA the bellows effect; to have the most effect on sleeping bag warmth assuming sufficient dry insulation
As for testing it at -55C that will have to wait until 2020 as nobody will allow me to try and sleep in their deep freezers.

[Moondog55]

Oh and FYI - that 'neck' baffle isn't actually supposed to cinch up right round your neck, it's only supposed to just close over the top of your shoulders.

It's not so much as to 'keep warm air in' around you body (hood seal should do that) as it it to keep the shoulder taper of the bag located where it's supposed to be, and keep the bag with you as you roll. Pull it too tight (ie right around your neck), and you actually pull the shoulder baffles into your shoulders and squish the down from inside out

Thanx That seems to explain a bit
Never had a bag with a neck /shoulder tunnel before, all my cold weather bags have been wriggle in units, no zippers in order to save weight or ones with very short centre zips also no neck /shoulder thingie

[jdeks]

All true but that $8- from K-Mart is usually enough here at -5C, they are 12mm thick CCF after all; I usually do use more mattress [ much more really] but that is for comforts sake mainly not because I necessarily need the warmth. But I have used the other bag in the picture in similar circumstances and been warm enough and I have survived colder nights recently with much less gear although I did shiver a lot and got very little real sleep

Yep, I'm well aware you can get by with just a CCF rollie. Thats all we had for 8 weeks of winter out at Majura during basic, and we survived on them too...although most nights we'd just hope we wouldn't. Like you said though, it's not exactly comfortable, which seems to be the problem you had with this bag.

I dont know exactly what sleep systems in the past you had, what they used, at what temp, or how warm it did or didn't feel. What I do know is that 12mm of CFF has an R value of about 1.5. Even Thermarests own wafffle-foam pad beats that by about 50%, and they dont even rate it for use below 3-4 C. Sub-freezing mats, by almost all makers, rate at least 3.5-4. A CCF mat of 1.5 is by a HUGE margin, the weakest link in your insulation.

No saying there might not be other issues, but you have to take that one out of the equation first.

My experience must be very different to yours jdeks as I have found excess room and pumping; AKA the bellows effect; to have the most effect on sleeping bag warmth assuming sufficient dry insulation

Another common misconception. Roomy bags don't increase cold air draw, they decrease it.

The only bag that WON'T draw cold air in when you stretch out limbs, is a bag that's so tight you can't move your limbs. Given that that's not a practical option, we have to accept there will always be some air draw in and out. SO how do we minimize this?

We make the inside of the bag BIGGER.

A large void of space inside the bag will take longer to warm up when you get in, its true. But once warm, it gives volume and spacefor limb movement, without having to push against the bag wall and stretching it outwards ie no bellows effect.

A snug bag will be stretched or displaced by any movement, creating frequent, smaller air ingresses. You may not noticed it as much with the air movements being smaller, but it will lower the overall internal temp.

With the hood cinched up tight, and 'appropriately roomy' bag will always be the warmer. If youre getting draft you can feel, you have sealing issues. It's not the bag size thats the problem

[Moondog55]

I think the pertinent wording there is "appropriately roomy" where-as I was talking about oversized bags.
I'm not discounting your information and advice, it just seems to be counter to my general experience.

[jdeks]

I think the pertinent wording there is "appropriately roomy" where-as I was talking about oversized bags.

When I say appropriately roomy, I'm just discounting the absurdly disproportionate ie a toddler in a twin-size bag.

Looking at the photos you put up, I dont see anything like that going on. The Berghaus, and any other 'expedition' grade bag, MUST be roomy enough to accommodate not only other down jackets etc, but also getting dressed and undressed inside the bag, especially if you're in a climate at its design rating of ~ -40C. All without sucking cold air in and out.

Such an 'oversized' bag does not necessitate cold air ingress or lesser insulation, rather quite the opposite. The size is there for a reason - it's part of the design and testing. If you're drawing cold air, it's a configuration and use issue. It's not just 'the bag is too big'.

The pad (demonstrably underrated for the conditions) remains the most likely candidate for any lack of warmth, following a pass with Occams Razor.

Do you have an Exped/XTherm/something you can do another test on?

[Moondog55]

Naturally but I won't be taking this bag anywhere soon now.
My winter pad system for Canada will be RidgeRest Solar + S2S Comfort plus and perhaps a thick CCF also, 75 to 90mm of insulation

[Moondog55]

I think the pertinent wording there is "appropriately roomy" where-as I was talking about oversized bags.

The pad (demonstrably underrated for the conditions) remains the most likely candidate for any lack of warmth, following a pass with Occams Razor.

You may be correct except for the draft through the zipper, Personally I think the big hole caused by the zipper slider not locking is the problem, looking closely at the zipper with a bright light and a big magnifying glass there seems to be fibre caught in the locking tab inside the zipper, at the moment I am looking for my stitching forceps as I think those are narrow enough to get to the fibre and grab it; if not I'll go and buy some new fine tweezers

[Moondog55]

Actually there might be an even simpler explanation, I may simply have eaten too early and may just have been hungry. I seem to remember cooking and eating early but setting up quite late. Never thought about that until tonite

[Moondog55]

Actually there might be an even simpler explanation, I may simply have eaten too early and may just have been hungry. I seem to remember cooking and eating early but setting up quite late. Never thought about that until tonite

Nope and no
I thought I was over it but last nite I had to get out of bed, put warm socks on and add a second layer to sleep in, it's me; I think my damned recurrent fever from Nuigini is sitting in the background waiting to slam me down Not what I was thinking about as it usually hits me in May. but I have had multiple attacks in the past when the disease was fresh in my system, I wish it was Malaria --- we can treat Malaria
I still need to fix the zipper tho

[Moondog55]

No again.
I have used the bag again for the last of my winter camping and in my opinion it is seriously underfilled. I just put it into Remote Repairs to have another 300 grams of 800+ down added. With 150mm tall slant baffles and 150mm baffle spacing there was only just enough down in this bag to fully expand when conditions are perfectly dry. Even in an Alaskan winter this can't be guaranteed. So after some serious consultation with some Alaskan guides, my American mate who winter camps in Alberta regularly and people I know who have climbed Denali I decided on the 10% overfill.
i do remember having similar issues 30 years ago with another sleeping bag with wide baffle spacing and slant baffles, a Mountain Equipment Redline that needed topping up with a similar amount of down, after which it performed well until I replaced it with the J&H Ultra to save a kilo in the pack

[jdeks]

Did you try a proper mat yet?

Going off the photos both you and the previous owner showed - the loft looks fine. I don't see space for 300g of overfill to enhance it any further, the baffles look quite full as is.

That bag is comfort rated for -41C. If you are using it here, on the rear end of winter/spring (what, ~ -5C at worst?) and getting cold, there is something else responsible.

[Moondog55]

I had at least an R12 mattress.
No the problem is both my aged metabolism which means I need a much warmer rating combined with an underfilled shell which means the bag develops large cold spots when the down falls away from the high hip and shoulder all side sleepers get
The bag seems to be filled to the industry "standard" of 7.5 to 8 kilos of down to a cubic metre when the optimum fill is 24 to 25 kilos per cubic metre,[ information from Richard N over at BPL, somebody considered to be an expert on the subject] 300 grams extra isn't going to be optimum but it should be "better" in that the cold spots won't develop as readily