Critiquing gear Do manufacturers ever listen??

[Nuts]

My Traverse jacket was tent sized, that was one of its redeeming features, go figure. Seems odd to call it fashionable?
'Trade Embargo'? 'annoying'? some have been spending too much time together?
Really! If annoying is needing to press an extra few buttons to use a drop shipper, life must be otherwise pretty good.

I feel for the tall, surely there must be advantages in being tall?
Should the average subsidise others size and taste? Still looking for a solution here

[blacksheep]

When Mountain Designs was owned and run by a "Climber" the gear was superb and it fitted, I mean Rick was tall and broad across the shoulders and his XL was almost my XL.
Now MD gear is sized for so called "Standard" man and fits me really badly.
Nuts I will redo the revue of the gear in the hope it stops others from making a bad mistake, but in the meantime while I am here in the USA I'll pick-up the :"Green Pepper" Bib & Brace pattern and make my own when I get home.

Rick tall? no, no he wasn't. 5'10 in heels.
by the way- I am design team manager here, I am 6'3, my equipment (pack/tent/sleeping bag) product manger is the same height, my retail/ product training sales leader is 6'6". we all wear macpac...so I disagree with the a few of the same old statements made here. Thinking of a topic "critiquing gear-do customers ever listen?"
anyways, as I say, I know of at least one manufacturer who listens, replies, responds and interacts. So in reply, the first reply I gave....

[ollster]

by the way- I am design team manager here, I am 6'3, ... we all wear macpac...so I disagree with the a few of the same old statements made here.

I'm 189 centimetres (for those that don't know, it's the measurement we use here in the 21st century ) and I can say that the Macpac clothing I have is generally very well fitting, although it tends to be on the large side if anything as I'm usually an XL but when fit can get into most of their L sizes pretty comfortably. I have "child bearing hips" and also a "child bearing torso", so to speak.

[stepbystep]

I'm 5'9.5" supposedly the average height for adult males in Australia, I often have issues with leg length in trousers, always too long...I think it's probably manufacturers making a decision that it's easier for people to shorten the leg rather than lengthen them. I got over it, move on people it isn't a perfect world.....my old Kathmandu convertible pants fit me better than my Macpac ones, must be because of all the tall people at Macpac

[Moondog55]

having sold menswear for a few years I can assure everyone that there are actually NO "average " people out there.

[photohiker]

The issue I have is one brand shops that have sizing derived from standard population models and appear to apply this across all items. For XL and XXL it means huge gut. Heck at 110 kilograms and 6'3.5" I should be complaining that jackets are too tight etc, but I am not, in fact the opposite. When I was 90 kilograms it was just absurd as size 35 waist means everything is way too short. The mass market suit shops have much the same issue. Luckily, at least many of the older style mens clothing shops are still around but sadly not so much for the bushwalking shops.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Ent. Bushwalking clothes are designed and made to fit a standard population. We can't really blame the manufacturers because your body happens to not comply with those standards? Or that those standards have changed over time? Or that they are now dealing with a world market? Or that their biggest markets now have more fatties in them?

Regarding suit shops, I have yet to buy a suit off the rack that fitted 100%, and I also have yet to find a suit shop that wouldn't adjust the suit to fit. Clever people! People who wear suits every day are used to this kind of thing, but outdoor gear doesn't lend itself so much because of the construction and the cost. Think about it, a suit shop knows they can fit you into a suit, even if they don't have your size. How much do you want to pay for outdoor gear? As little as possible, right. Probably import it from OS if it's cheaper there, right.

You're also expected to look presentable in a suit. If there is an extra inch of fabric around your body while you roll around in the scrub getting wet, dirty and scruffy, who gives a toss?

Most of us here have bought outdoor gear on the net from overseas. How many of us have bought suits from overseas?

Not the same sort of market, is it. Not at all, not hardly.

In any case, if you're having these sort of problems, I'd suggest you get friendly with a tailor that understands outdoor gear.

[blacksheep]

having sold menswear for a few years I can assure everyone that there are actually NO "average " people out there.

funny, almost every talk-back radio program I have heard suggest there are a lot of pretty average people out there

[wayno]

the good ones listen.

I emailed macpac more than once after ending up as a drowned rat in their event jackets from perspiration suggesting they add something like pit zips to their event coats.
no reponse whatsoever.

i got a columbia,, beats the hell out of my macpac coats for shedding water with dwr. i've never managed to wet the surface out on my columbia, keeping my resolution dry was just a non event.

[Moondog55]

Then Rick must have been wearing very high heels the day we talked.
I admit to being of longer leg length than average, and I generally buy my business shirts with 96cm sleeve length and I mass 95kilos at a height of 186cm.

I am the midget compared to my son.

If Macpac made Bib&Brace mountaineering and ski touring bottoms I would happily buy them; but as this is a Gore warranty problem I am probably going to proceed with a small claims tribunal application for a custom made replacement against Gore.
I may be in a minority but I simply find B&B far more comfortable and functional than trousers, warmer when that is the priority and cooler when that is the need.

[blacksheep]

wayno- check your PM's.

[Ent]

Actually Nuts some firms are refusing to ship through known on-shippers. Cascade designed started off
• Not honouring their warranty unless brought locally
• Refusing the big mail order houses to ship to Australia through restrain of trade agreements that if signed in Australia might wind up on the ACCC desk.
• Tightening down even the smaller mail order houses.

In private e-mails with some mail order houses they are not happy as pressure is being placed on them to check if on-shippers are being used and stop this. In fact they find such bans frustrating and are seeking ways to make it easier for people when shopping to identify items that they cannot ship rather than finding out at check-out. Such programming changes are not cheap so we all have to pay for that.

One large manufacturer responded to an email of mine and made it clear that the margins and prices that they were charging the local distributor are inline with USA distributor prices. They themselves are puzzled by the higher margins (by the distributor, not by the shops as 100% mark up is not uncommon to be needed to keep the doors open) and indicated they had sent a “please explain”. Interesting, the price of some of the items has come down in their range.

Not a case of subsidising that am I seeking. Wow sounds very socialistic that view. But then again like a great pepper steak sauce, it is the whining majority that turn it into a bland sauce in many establishments.
In fact, Nuts you of anyone, should know that I pay large premiums to get stuff that fits my needs. Happy to pay the extra for a longer WM sleeping bag, and if Hilleberg want extra for a long Nallo more than happy to shell out. I just want the freedom to get what is otherwise not sold here at least. WM bags were originally imported in way too extreme temperature ranges. Honestly a minus 18? The Queensland distributor thought that would be ideal for Tassie. They had imported a range of above zero bags so probably got the Queensland market right. There was a large gap between plus zero and minus eighteen models imported. A minus five to ten is likely the most useful range for Tasmania. Also the wider models were not imported. Interestingly enough they appear to be now available locally at prices that are sensible. Was it customer pressure? At least they listened or figured it out for themselves.

What is happening with a lot of gear is prole shift. By that uni-sex sizing and adjusting clips to minimise the size range. It is hogwash to say that is “economic” necessity. Today I found out why my steak sandwich from a small café was always so good. They buy and slice their own meat so it does not dry out if pre-sliced. It is that care that makes their market and frankly if it costs a dollar or too more I am not going to complain. Actually they are very cheap. But if a MacDonald like chain is involved then for “economic” reason or OH&S, or, etc it has to be pre-sliced and frozen. It is a easy way out to blame price. If that was the case BMW, Audi, etc would never sell in Australia.


Some firms are very good at taking onboard requests but run foul of conflicting customer requests. Tasmanian’s might ask firms like One Planet why they have the shock cord webbing as it tears off in scrub. The reason is our NZ colleges want this to hang their rain coats off to dry. OP solution, make it removable. Smart thinking but not always possible so I accept if need A is greater than my need B. Hilleberg field a lot of, “can you make it lighter” requests. Yes, they can, but then it would not be a Hilleberg tent, this is a fair response from them. I accept that but when piezo after piezo fails on certain stoves is it not time to accept that something is not right instead of blaming the user?

I had a long discussion with MD over sizing and they denied that sizing had changed so glad to read that I am not alone. Yes their XL was as good as fit I could ever want.

Much of the gear is ok but I wonder why certain things are done a certain why. If it because it suits another need better then fair enough but some times its best describe as laziness or inertia why some issues are not fixed. I much prefer smaller narrowly focussed companies for gear as they are likely to listen.

Cheers

[Jellybean]

I'm 5'9.5" supposedly the average height for adult males in Australia, I often have issues with leg length in trousers, always too long...I think it's probably manufacturers making a decision that it's easier for people to shorten the leg rather than lengthen them. I got over it, move on people it isn't a perfect world.....

Touche'!

Seriously, if getting clothes to fit perfectly is your biggest life issue then you should thank your lucky stars (and save your energy for real problems)!

[sthughes]

Lol, I always find it funny reading people whinge about others whingeing

[Rico]

8. Air release valve dry bags have now disappeared off the market.

http://adventurefriends.com.au/ferrino-w-p-sack-50l/

Anyway what I'm noticing is that most gear brands are focusing on the apparel market more and more. If you go into a Kathmandu shop you will see that this is where the investment is, the other day I was having a look at a Mountain Design catalogue that someone left around and 80% was about clothing, and even the brands that I represent are adding new jackets, pants and shirts every six month. I'd be very curious to know what percentage of a brand revenue comes from bushwalking gear and how much from apparel (Cam you may want to help here ).
The problem is that if I sell a tent it will fit almost anyone, it will stay on the market for several years and it will pay back the investment I did in stocking it. If I sell a jacket I will need to stock at least 12 different sizes (six for males and six for females) and 2 different colors, which is a total of minimum 24 variations. If I add more sizes like XXXS or XXXL that i don't know if I will ever sell, the investment will be even higher... and the jacket will be outdated after only one season. It makes my head spinning...
I just want to narrow down what the real problem is... it is easy to have a model of 3 season tent for very tall people and a down sleeping bag for shorter people, but it is impossible to have a jacket in 40 different sizes for all possible body shapes.

Rico

[walkinTas]

Height and inseam are not directly correlated. People from 176.5 cm (your 5'9.5") up to 184 cm (6') can have an inseam that's between <80cm (31.5") up to >84cm (33"). Simple, buy trousers that specify waist and inseam (89:83).

[Moondog55]

There is a huge difference between a pair of $50- work jeans and a set of $1200- mountaineering pants and jacket, when I pay that much I expect to get perfection or a reasonable facsimile there-of

[Nuts]

Lol, I always find it funny reading people whinge about others whingeing

Least theyv'e got something to whinge about I expect next will come people moaning about someone ranting

Really though, I had a gore jacket that lasted 4 guiding and several trackworker type seasons and i only swapped it when i could afford (sold it for more than paid actually... ah life is roses..) How much gear do some have?? May I suggest not buying more stuff as an option? (almost outa ideas here lol)

Not to take anything away from your case Moony.

[stepbystep]

I'm 5'9.5" supposedly the average height for adult males in Australia, I often have issues with leg length in trousers, always too long...I think it's probably manufacturers making a decision that it's easier for people to shorten the leg rather than lengthen them. I got over it, move on people it isn't a perfect world.....

Touche'!

Seriously, if getting clothes to fit perfectly is your biggest life issue then you should thank your lucky stars (and save your energy for real problems)!

Bingo! My body shape changes with the moon cycles(and the burger intake).

[photohiker]

I just want to narrow down what the real problem is... it is easy to have a model of 3 season tent for very tall people and a down sleeping bag for shorter people, but it is impossible to have a jacket in 40 different sizes for all possible body shapes.

And not to mention that you would need to do that in several jacket styles...

You know when you go to the sales and they don't have any mediums and large left? Guess what the most popular sizes are. The further you get from that, the harder it is for a retailer to justify the stockholding - he'll probably have a bunch of old season stock he can't sell at the end of the year. Bet that looks good on the P&L.

Thanks for sounding the voice of reason Rico. Good to hear from another trade representative. Poor Cam is battling here, and he's been the punching bag before

[photohiker]

May I suggest not buying more stuff as an option? (almost outa ideas here lol)

True that. Apart from shoes and boots, (maybe socks too) Not so easy to wear out outdoor gear. I've got some exoffio pants that won't give up. I think they are 7 years old now. Still wear them regularly.

[Ent]

Hi Rico

Thanks for the link. I will get out my scales and see it it is lighter than my current one. 50 litres is a bit big now I have gone for WM flash pants and down jacket. But nice to see that the idea has not gone completely away. Still might be handy for traveling as clothes become very bulky very quickly.

Yeap I am 96cm if not longer in business shirt class. Standard arm length in my neck size is 89-91. Rather more hassle to length than to shorten make more average.

Sorry Cam, spoken to my arms to get shorter more average but they are not listening but they still fit in my MD Aussie made tops

Interesting the comments on the Event issue and DWR. Seeing that we have a listening ear please fill us in Cam as this has come up before, a bad batch or some other issue? I have Montane and Rab Event gear and no complaints on the DWR treatment on those garments nor on my PP Vista Performance shell all have been excellent.

Cheers

[north-north-west]

3. Female clothing outside the petite range.

Try finding gloves for small adult hands. Even most bushwalking shops don't have anything suitable. Particularly waterproof gloves/mittens.

And then try finding pants for women with nonstandard proportions. I have a bit of an *&%$#!. I have to buy pants at least one size up or they're too tight in the seat - and I mean 'split at the seams when rock scrambling' tight. But that means the waist is at least two sizes too big.
And why do they insist on putting hip pockets on bushwalking pants? You can't get at them properly with the pack on, especially if the hipbelt is done up, and they put extra seams right where you don't want them: under that hipbelt. Rear [pockets are even sillier. Just bung a couple of oversized gusseted patch pockets on the front and that's plenty, thanks. And why do all the belts that come with the pants have non-lockable clips/buckles? They just loosen up all the time unless you tie a ruddy great knot in them.
If I had a sewing machine and the teensiest bit of time I'd make my own. They might not look flash but they'd fit and be comfortable. Pants are worse than gaiters when it comes to finding something that's right.

[icemancometh]

3. Female clothing outside the petite range.

Try finding gloves for small adult hands. Even most bushwalking shops don't have anything suitable. Particularly waterproof gloves/mittens.

And then try finding pants for women with nonstandard proportions. I have a bit of an *&%$#!. I have to buy pants at least one size up or they're too tight in the seat - and I mean 'split at the seams when rock scrambling' tight. But that means the waist is at least two sizes too big.
And why do they insist on putting hip pockets on bushwalking pants? You can't get at them properly with the pack on, especially if the hipbelt is done up, and they put extra seams right where you don't want them: under that hipbelt. Rear [pockets are even sillier. Just bung a couple of oversized gusseted patch pockets on the front and that's plenty, thanks. And why do all the belts that come with the pants have non-lockable clips/buckles? They just loosen up all the time unless you tie a ruddy great knot in them.
If I had a sewing machine and the teensiest bit of time I'd make my own. They might not look flash but they'd fit and be comfortable. Pants are worse than gaiters when it comes to finding something that's right.

I have probs finding pants to fit my butt and I'm a guy. 32" waist but ski and climb and walk so need room for my thighs and glutes so often have to sizeup and then find they fall off! Not good. even worse in shorts for some reason.

Re pockets I like zip ones, I don't get why anyone would make non zip ones for the outdoors.

I've since been able to solve a lot of my problems by contacting these guys NWAlpine. Next time I'll talk to them about making a hood that fits better but they're the best production fit I've found to date. Even paying shipping it's well worth my time and $$$$.


And re an earlier poster's comment about excess fabric not being an issue? Well when you go to the real outdoors there is wind, sometimes a lot of it and when there's space in there, that's where the wind goes. Then you get cold. And it becomes dangerous. Excess fabric also tends to catch on things and rip and or get caught in ropes, carabiners, etc. Try this for a comparison, go for a run in a singlet that fits and then try it in a big garbage bag. Does the fit and excess flapping material matter? Now multiply that by days...

[photohiker]

And re an earlier poster's comment about excess fabric not being an issue?

I said an inch, not a yard.

This thread is getting quite amusing.

Rather than blame manufacturers for making something that doesn't fit, how about we just don't buy anything that doesn't fit, and go with Nuts' idea of not buying anything if we haven't worn out the old gear? We'd have money left over for tailoring and less ill-fitting gear to complain about that way.

[icemancometh]

because it's almost never just an inch. In some jackets I could just about fit a new born baby in the excess space

And an inch is plenty of space for wind to get in.

And excess fabric...multiply that by so many steps per day. Then multiply by days etc.

When we count grams, that excess material is extra weight and extra weight in food as we need to burn more fuel and to keep body temps up

When you count grams re gas used and gear then how can this be insignificant?

[Ent]

This thread is getting quite amusing.

Rather than blame manufacturers for making something that doesn't fit, how about we just don't buy anything that doesn't fit, and go with Nuts' idea of not buying anything if we haven't worn out the old gear? We'd have money left over for tailoring and less ill-fitting gear to complain about that way.

Sounds a bit like "take your (solo) bat and ball and go home" type approach, but each to their own style.

In bushwalking shops that sell maps (thanks to a previous poster for wising me up to that distinction) about five to ten percent of the garments in the base size (was 36 to even 40 depending on pizzas) fitted me well. No complaints as about that is where I likely sit as a percentage of the population in build. In one brand stores, identified by not selling maps, zero percent of the long sleeve and legged garments fit. When I order online I with care I can get nearly all garments that fit or use to. Now it is a no ship ban that stops my favourite brand in the long fit.

My best fitting and longest lasting shirt is a NZ made XL one. I can not kill it. It has a zip pocket that somehow manages to avoid my breast strap and is big enough to hold what I want to. A brilliant piece of design work and craftpersonship. Buy another one tomorrow. How old is it? I brought it 2004 and it survive four months of laundries in Europe, including the clothes murder centres of Turkey. Gone on every winter bushwalk and planned scrub bash since. Weights a tonne though. Good iron and it gets me in most places with a dress code and happy to take on scrub and win Cam might be able to date it as it is a Macpac one. Took a long time to find the tiny label. So when was the last MacPac shirt made in NZ Cam?

Reminds me of the "Everlast generators" that a science fiction TV show mentioned, as they lasted for ever the company that made them went out of business as they had no new sales

Actually my MD Aussie made tops must be ten to fifteen years old. Apart from the paint gone from the zippers they look as good as the day they were brought. Again classics of design with zip pockets in the right place and ability to be roomy but not hang everywhere.

Again gaiters. One Planet have re-released their classic design. Best gaiter that I have come across. A friend after twenty years of family duties ventured forth into the Walls last weekend with the classic rear-closing MacPac gaiters made in NZ. An excellent design but not longer made that way. It is design that makes the above items excellent along with careful choice of materials and craftspersonship. Is it too much to ask for this. Sounds like it is

Cheers

PS we all could go naked but I might make Stephen Fry look good

[wayno]

And re an earlier poster's comment about excess fabric not being an issue?

I said an inch, not a yard.

This thread is getting quite amusing.

Rather than blame manufacturers for making something that doesn't fit, how about we just don't buy anything that doesn't fit, and go with Nuts' idea of not buying anything if we haven't worn out the old gear? We'd have money left over for tailoring and less ill-fitting gear to complain about that way.

i did that once, took some gear around tailors i wanted fixed, i even had the fabric i wanted added in, most tailors refused to do it because it wasnt your average suit or dress.
one tailor didnt follow my instructions and botched it,
a dressmaker eventually did what i wanted. she took one look at it and said to me, "everyone else has put it in the too hard basket" i spent a lot of time trying to get it sorted. and even then with my coat i still didnt address seam sealing....
i really hit the jackpot with the dressmaker, she went on to design for icebreaker in the early days. in nz you have companies like "twin needle " in chch that specialise in altering outdoor clothes and will take gear through the post.
i got quoted $140 by them to install pit zips to give an idea of price
when i got my coat altered i had half a dozen pieces of material added in for $200, and yeah it was a disaster for waterproofness without seam sealing, and i never realised it was going to be that expensive but i'd already forked out on the coat, and i was sort of blinkered once i latched onto the idea of getting it altered....

[Jellybean]

Lol, I always find it funny reading people whinge about others whingeing

At least I do it concisely!!

I thought ... er, ahem "Ent", had become more concise in his return to the forum but it seems that that was short lived!!

[Jellybean]

The issue I have is one brand shops that have sizing derived from standard population models and appear to apply this across all items.

Hi Ent,

You seem to have concerns about your enormous height and the fact that manufacturers only cater for "average" sized people. I think I have a solution for you .... go along to a SEABL or an NBL (semi-pro or pro basketball) game. In that audience I can tell you that you will be, for all intents and purposes, of decidedly average height (works for me! ). While you are there, you might ask a few people where they get their clothes. One word of caution though, if you buy from their suppliers then you might need to take things up ... it's a decidedly imperfect world!!

Cheers,

JB

[photohiker]

I think I have a solution for you .... go along to a SEABL or an NBL (semi-pro or pro basketball) game. In that audience I can tell you that you will be, for all intents and purposes, of decidedly average height (works for me! ). While you are there, you might ask a few people where they get their clothes.

Do you really think that would help?