3 days under 5kg :how ?

[Franco]

OK, how do you hike for 3 days with less than 5kg on your shoulders ?
To become a genuine UltraLighter ( not the light and comfy variety like me...) you need an holistic approach.
In the Aarn thread I made it clear that I am not a fan of flimsy packs, however I do have an ULA AMP , less than 400g, that can carry 3 days of stuff for me in summer(comfortably so) , as long as I stay under 8kg .
Recently I visited Doug Johnson from BPL at his Seattle home. He is the real deal, talks the talk and walks the walk.
In this shot you see my mate Petras holding Doug's Z Pack, 122g !!!!
Doug does 1-3 days with it. How ?
Shelter : BPL (BMW) Nano tarp 100g
http://www.bozemanmountainworks.com/?do ... duct&id=50
Ti Goat CF stakes x 5 = 28g
Mat : GG ThinLight 150g
http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gos ... light.html
Pack
http://www.zpacks.com/
Blast 32 - 3,200 cubic inches, 4.3 oz / 122 grams, $125
Sleeping Bag
BMW Cocoon UL60 quilt 312g
NO Stove (bars and no cook meals) or Caldera Cone, about 200g with 3 days of fuel (stove/pot/windscreen-stand/protective cover-bowl)

Note that the combined weight of the BIG 4 is about 700g (with guylines) less than each single item carried by most.

Doug like all gear heads has several of each items, so for some alternative bits see his 2007 list :
http://www.backpackinglight.com/backpac ... 4ab0cc.pdf

His typical trekking areas are the Cascades and the Olympics area, both can and do take him over 2000m , so not just protected low altitude strolls...

Some of this gear is obviously not suited to bush bashing, particularly the pack, however it is a lot easier and quicker to move (out of a predicament) with 5 kg on your shoulders that 25 kg.
Franco

[Earthling]

It amazes me how far experienced hikers can take this weight reduction thing.
Its great to see.
Thanks for the pics and links

[Nuts]

The pack looks similar in design to golite with just a fabric harness. I guess its hard to contemplate no padding unless you really can keep the weight down. I found with the pinnacle that packing my mat against the back provided all the back padding needed. The waist and shoulders weren't an issue (with 10or so kg's in it) The only thing with the concept is the fact that there is no ventilation (so probably not the best 'hot weather' pack).

[corvus]

Nor does it look like a pack that that would have coped with our recent bush Bash
corvus

[Nuts]

No. But then it would be ok on most track walks. The pinnacle would survive but is probably a lot heavier (900grams ). I guess it depends on where you do most of your walking, if its 95% 'on track' then it would seem a smart way to go. Carrying another kg+ everywhere makes owning a second pack attractive..

[Taurë-rana]

I don't really understand how you can avoid being way too cold at night though with that thin mat and sleeping bag.

[alliecat]

Hi DA,

Often LW walkers will include their clothes (eg. high-loft insulated jackets and trousers) as part of their sleep system. So it's not just the quilt keeping them warm. As for the mat, well, I'm not sure it'd be enough for me either, but a ridgerest isn't much heavier and that certainly is enough for me under most circumstances.

Cheers,
Alliecat

[Franco]

Forgot about this one...
Yes, most ultralighters sleep with some or all of the day clothes on.
BTW, not unusual to hear of folk freesing in their bags, yet they have all sorts of stuff next to them that could help. Fleece tops/raingear/socks/hat/gloves even stuff sacks or plastic bags warn over the feet will warm you up very quickly...
So LW is not just about carrying less.
Those Z Packs are made out of 1.5 Cuben fabric . (Cuben spinnakers can be made with fabric about half that thickness) That is very tough but has very little abrasion resistance. So great for trails not for bushbashing. Also keep in mind that as they are frameless they only work for weights below 6 or 7 kg.
Franco
Also Doug ,like a lot of these guys, has multiples of each type of gear. By multiples I mean 10 or more packs, 10 or more mats....
So that is one of his packs, not his pack.

[kanangra]

I'm doing a 4 day walk in the BM's between Christmas and NY. Whilst I don't know if I will get my pack weight below 5kg. I do aim to get it under 10kg including food and water. Will see what the weather forcast is like closer to the date.

[under10kg]

I can walk under 4 kgs up here in queensland using a tarp etc. I did use a light weitht pack on the western authors and it survived OK. My raingear parka did get a lot of wear and I will need to replace it.

[Drifting]

I'd love to get away with only a tarp. It's just not Tassie though!

[Taurë-rana]

I can walk under 4 kgs up here in queensland using a tarp etc. I did use a light weitht pack on the western authors and it survived OK. My raingear parka did get a lot of wear and I will need to replace it.

When I walked in Kakadu, I don't know how heavy the pack was, but it certainly didn't weigh very much. Under 5kg would be easy there where most of the weight is food and water. Back to Tassie where you have to be prepared for snow, rain, howling gales, and 35 degree heat all on the same trip! I'm doing a 3 day walk next week, I'll see how light I can go but I'll be by myself so need a fair bit of first aid stuff as well as no sharing of the tent or anything else.

[kanangra]

When I jumped on the scales I wasn't even close. Dry pack weight 11KG! Add 2 litres of water and track weight rose to 13kgs.

But I did have a couple of luxuries like a radio and my pillow!

[Macca81]

But I did have a couple of luxuries......my pillow!

thats a bit keen!

[Franco]

For a cheap and lightweight pillow, try the wine bladder way.
Use a 2 liter wine bladder (don't fully inflate) , wrap some clothing around it ( a pair of trousers or shirt will do) and shove that inside a stuff sack.
If required put a layer (jumper/fleece top) around that. Total extra weight about 30g
Franco

[ninjapuppet]

My last trip was an 8 dayer with a 34kg pack, and hips started hurting bad after the 7th day. (everything was well branded and heavy duty)
I'm inexperienced with the lightweight philosphy. Ive only just jumped aboard, completely overhauled all my gear and hoping for any tips.
Funny thing is that apart from the neoair, msr pot, and down jacket, everything here is generally much cheaper than their usual counterparts you see in shops
My plan is to experiment and finally come up with a good combo to recommend to fellow bushwalkers starting down this path.

My lightweight 3 dayer/2nighter kit for blue mountains for late autumn.

BASEGEAR................................................not happy with this yet
Golite pack...................590
TT moment...................998 (paranoia made me overdo it with the seam sealing)
Silk liner......................136
Sleep bag.....................752
Neoair mat...............395
Flexair pillow..................24

COOKING................................................yet to be tested
MSR ti pot.....................125
GSI spoon........................8
Flint.............................31
WhiteBox stove kit...........64
metho 100ml..............110 ??? enough

WATER.................................................VERY GOOD SETUP
water Rx tablets.............. 10
fake camelback ..............147
2L platypus.....................34
Aquamira frontier pro.........60
Sponge...........................6
Tektowl.........................14

CLOTHING.................................This is a very good set up for down to - 6,eg main range, but NOT rock scrambling.
cheap merino Long john.....255
Icebreaker top................125
MD photon pants.............282
Montane atomic jkt..........320
Down Jacket..................512
Campack towel................25

MISC................................................comments welcome
Stuffsack......................20
Petzl E+lite....................28
Firstaid........................75
Loksak........................16
Map............................15
Leatherman squirt...........55

HYGEINE................................................i'm abit metrosexual. i need these
Toothbrush..................... 8
Toothpaste......................5
Detergent ..................... 20
1/2 roll toilet paper...........40
Pkt 10 tissues................. 17
Deet........................... 20
Soap.............................20
Sunscreen...................... 20
Hand sanitisers................20
----------------------------------------------
TOTAL: 5.27kg

• This does not include clothes i wear. This set up has been comfortable down to -3, but abit uncomfortable below that.
• I need to find a lightweight pack liner to add to this
• Thinking of shedding 600g by replacing TT moment with a hexamid or solomid (but solomid seems grossly overpriced at over $500 for the full setup, and hexamids are non-existant till June). The tent is yet to be tested.
• If i can get my setup to under 5kg, I will be a happy camper! I wonder if ive forgotten anything or included any junk in here.


Any suggestions welcome

[Lindsay]

You da man ninjapuppet ! . My last 2 day 1 night in the Blue Mountains saw me carrying 16 kg. You have given me something to aspire to. I am seriously considering a TT Moment for my next big purchase.

[ninjapuppet]

my base gear is currently at just under 2.9kg, but i dont know if i'm game enough to try out Franco's 700gram suggestions!

I just dont want to freeze in that 312gram quilt, nor want my stuff falling into a heap out of the 122 gram pack yet.
Think i'll do more research before i take that jump. For example, I just cant stand mozzies with just a tarp.

[Lizzy]

Wow Ninjapuppet- that is fantastic compared to your 8 day load!! I am also trying to reduce my weight (& my packs ) but it is so hard to leave out all the little bits and pieces that don't weight much but add up!
Have you got a first aid kit to add to your list? (Mum & nurse speaking here)
Congrats- looking forward to hearing how you go with it
Cheers
Lizzy

[Lizzy]

sorry -just saw first aid kit in there.... how about PLB?

[corvus]

Good list ninjapuppet I dont see a trowel and do you think 10 tissues will be enough for three days .
corvus

[nickL]

hi NP

great list - not alot of comments to make - but..

have a look at western mountaineering flash jacket(down) with the hood ( no beanie requried then) 260g - was free international postage from hermitshut.com

very light first aid kit - would love to know whats in it

do you wear long jons to bed - if so ditch the liner

you havent taken camp shoes and only one pair of socks - is that cool if you get wet

do you take the tyvek ground sheet for the moment - worth it if you take the neoair or as my friend says "its now just the neo"

well done! it takes alot to understand what you really need and discard the marketing hype - you've done it

nick

[ninjapuppet]

Thanks corvus, I actually did have a 1/2 roll of toilet paper and did factor that into the total weight, but forgot to put that in.

I had a 700gm first aid kit and had to think long and hard, and painfully take things away slowly, coming down to 75grams. Most of it are medications so some research was required, which i'll make recommendations later on.

my GME epirb is 289 grams. unless its mandatory, i think it'll stay at home for short 3 day walks where i dont go off track/ bush bashing. My lightweight gear prob wont hack bushbashing anyway. Most ultralight forums dont mention much about PLBs, but then again, we do live in Australia. do you think our environment is harsher than overseas? or Aussies are just a more careful bunch?

on 2nd thoughts, perhaps it should be part of my base gear and just think of a way to loose 500grams somewhere else. maybe i'll diet a bit and burn some fat off.

[Lizzy]

For what its worth, my advise is to take the PLB. If you have one and its no extra effort than carrying 250g extra then it sure would be a shame not to have it if you (or even someone you come across) needed it. Now I have one its even coming on daywalks (especially if I take the kids). Obviously I hope to never use it, and wouldn't take setting it off lightly- but I certainly would if something life-threatening or really serious happens. A relative of mine badly broke his leg and were it not for the PLB he was carrying he would have lost his leg! I'm convinced! But of course saying all that- I used to go on heaps of walks without one and quite often solo too.... but now I have the technology it is coming!!
Cheers
Lizzy

[Ent]

Hi

Curious how you find the MD Photon pants and the Montane jacket? I am planning to try this setup this weekend instead of my PP Vista and PP Gore-tex pants. The tradditional setup has proven to be very solid and comfortable but does weigh in at 1.6 kilogram so hence the testing for something lighter providing it stll can do the job.

Cheers Brett

[Tony]

Hi ninjapuppet,

Great work, I agree with NickL that you could drop the silk liner and wear long johns in your sleeping bag (that is what I did).

For a three dayer I only take one pair of spare socks, I keep one pair dry for nights and I just put wet ones on for the day if I am unable to dry them.

• Thinking of shedding 600g by replacing TT moment with a hexamid or solomid (but solomid seems grossly overpriced at over $500 for the full setup, and hexamids are non-existant till June). The tent is yet to be tested.

I have a Zpacks hexamid tent but unfortunately due to illness I am unable to try it out in the field for a while, I had a trip planned for this weekend but had to cancel, it will probably have to wait until next spring to use it.

Leatherman squirt...........55

For a knife , I get by with a 21 g Victorinox Classic SD and have for years now with no problems.

Down Jacket..................512

There are lighter down jackets, there is a series on UL sleeping bags, down Jackets and down pants and using them a system on BPL.


Tony

[sef]

In my opinion, leave down jackets for watching kids soccer and skiing the main range. They're designed for dry alpine climates and scrub and the moisture that typically comes with our cold would annihilate them. Shells can only do so much. A light fleece jacket or windstopper vest is 300g.

[ninjapuppet]

I think i'll have to make room for the epirb now that i think about it.
not just for my sake, but for others I may encounter.
Its probally the best first aid device out of my lot, and i think i can sacrifice the weight of a cup of water, for this.

Brett,
that raingear set, does the trick if you're not brushing up against anything. i feel they did a good job of keeping the rain out, while being adequately waterproof. however my friend climbed up cradle mountain in a similar setup and ended up with tiny rips in the jacket! so as i said, its for trail walking, not for rock scrambling.

with the jacket, thanks guys! i didnt realise it was so out of proportion with the rest at 512grams. that will need a re think.

[Franco]

Sef
For the LW crowd the down jackets are not used when walking. They are for rest stops,at camp and as part of the sleep system.
Franco

[Ent]

Hi

Thanks for the feedback on the Montane jacket and MD Photon pants. Yeap mine worked a treat on the weekend, kept the rain away nicely I am a disaster for testing wet weather gear as it generally does not rain for the first six to ten walks I go on after getting it. Sadly the colder weather and planned off track walks (or rough track) will mean it will not be until next season before I probably will get a chance to test it out. Nice to save a kilogram though for the anti freeze.

Cheers Brett

PS I am with Franco. On the weekend the down jackets were so nice for the camp fire chat but would not like to walk in one. Even on a coolish day people walking on the flat without a pack found them rather too warm. In fact not having a down jacket for camp wear on the weekend would have forced a rapid retreat to the sleeping bag as the temp around six pm was in the negatives. Even colder for people on Friday higher up I believe.

Be curious what UL or LW options for down jackets are out there as all I have seen in 850 loft are massively expensive.