Kmart $4 gas

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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Orion » Tue 15 Sep, 2020 12:06 pm

Franco wrote:the tare of the 100g canister is about 100g and it is about 125g for the 230g canisters. (depending on the brand)


The Jetboil 230 canisters, at least what gets shipped to California, have a tare weight of 148g. Same for MSR. I would expect the canisters shipped to Australia would be the same but I don't that know that for a fact.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Orion » Tue 15 Sep, 2020 12:18 pm

Mark F wrote:
CraigVIC wrote:That's what I have. I find it only works well with a brand new butane can when the imbalance of pressure helps not so much gravity as per the video. I actually have a mess of canisters, some part used, some refilled, some empty. Need to start again and label and weigh etc Haha.


Put the canister you are topping up in the freezer for 15 minutes. Fuel will flow freely.

The perfect refiller is very similar to the ones referenced here but has a flexible hose attached. A 230g canister will fill correctly if it is tilted at 35 degrees? (I can't find my notes when I determined this). This creates the required void and prevents overfilling.

Edit: Found the diagram
Image



This method was discussed in a thread about 7 years ago here. I couldn't really figure out why it should work back then. Does it?

I tried it over the last few days with different canisters and got very inconsistent results. Sometimes it seemed to work well. Other times it underfilled significantly. And I also got cans, tilted at 35° like in the figure, that filled *completely*. It's a weird feeling to disconnect the refill valve, shake the canister, and sense NO BUBBLE in it. Freaked me out a little. I reconnected it the first time, inverted on the original canister so it could feed back by gravity and it made no difference. The canister remained totally full.

Gravity is a pretty weak effect for these canisters. With the typical adapter the hydrostatic head is going to be something like 1kPa. With identical fuel compositions in both canisters a temperature difference of just 1°C will produce a pressure difference around ten times greater than that. More likely when refilling there will be a difference in the fuels that will result in an even larger pressure differential. And the "air gap" isn't air.

In one case I connected an overfilled bottle on top of a less filled one and the gas went UP, increasing the weight of the already overfilled canister. They were both at room temperature.

The fact that it seemed to work a couple of times is weird to me. I can't explain that. Could be coincidence but I don't think so. In any case it sure isn't reliable. Spooky to have a 100% full canister. A 10% overfill is pretty safe. But completely chocked full at room temperature is just a tiny bit scary.

Don't rely on the 35° angle. Use a scale.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Huntsman247 » Tue 15 Sep, 2020 10:41 pm

I'm curious what does a refilled gas canister work out too cost wise? At 4 bucks a can is it really worth the effort to refill?
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Lamont » Wed 16 Sep, 2020 8:52 am

123
Last edited by Lamont on Wed 16 Sep, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Neo » Wed 16 Sep, 2020 9:37 am

Plain butane from Big W is $1.25 per can. At 220g net.

Not everyone has access to a Kmart plus moving gas also avoids the leftovers not quite worth taking, by refilling or transferring. Then some just like doing it.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Mark F » Wed 16 Sep, 2020 11:38 am

At $4 a can it doesn't make economic sense to refill 230g canisters. It does make sense if you carry 100g canisters to refill them from a 230g (or larger) as these have not come down in price. I bought a heap of 450g canisters (75/25 Iso-butane/propane) for just over $4.10 and use them to refill both 100g and 230g canisters. It costs me $0.92 to refill a 100g and $2.10 for a 230g with one of the best blends on the market. For a while I did fill with the hairspray type cartridges but prefer the slight increase in cost for the better gas blend.

@Orion. I agree that you should always check your refill on the scales. If you managed to fully fill a canister with it tilted then you must have created a vacuum in the one being refilled. Had it held butane and you froze it before refilling? That could explain it.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Nuts » Wed 16 Sep, 2020 12:15 pm

I just weighed an empty Gasmate can for the exercise @ 150g so there must be some variance.
Having had the chance to see failures with factory filled canisters refilling is not something i'd do (imagine trying to argue that your refill had nothing to do with an accident) same for the adaptors.. but it's a shame the smaller cans weren't also discounted (here)*, probably a more useful size for most walkers.

*maybe less brands available here?
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Moondog55 » Wed 16 Sep, 2020 1:17 pm

I refill but as per Marks post above it isn't cost effective now with cheap canisters, now I only refill the little ones. Warnings in the other past thread has me weighing before and after and keeping the refill to 100g +/- a couple of grams.
Still working though that Gasmate sale a while back; shared with a half dozen mates and I still have a dozen left
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Huntsman247 » Thu 17 Sep, 2020 5:36 pm

Mark F wrote:At $4 a can it doesn't make economic sense to refill 230g canisters. It does make sense if you carry 100g canisters to refill them from a 230g (or larger) as these have not come down in price. I bought a heap of 450g canisters (75/25 Iso-butane/propane) for just over $4.10 and use them to refill both 100g and 230g canisters. It costs me $0.92 to refill a 100g and $2.10 for a 230g with one of the best blends on the market. For a while I did fill with the hairspray type cartridges but prefer the slight increase in cost for the better gas blend.

@Orion. I agree that you should always check your refill on the scales. If you managed to fully fill a canister with it tilted then you must have created a vacuum in the one being refilled. Had it held butane and you froze it before refilling? That could explain it.
Cool. Fair enough. Didn't think of the smaller canisters. I generally just use a partially used 230g on shorter walks just so there's less rattling in my pack as I like to keep the canister in my pot.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Orion » Fri 18 Sep, 2020 10:41 am

Mark F wrote:If you managed to fully fill a canister with it tilted then you must have created a vacuum in the one being refilled. Had it held butane and you froze it before refilling? That could explain it.


I'm not sure what you mean by "vacuum". The vapor in these canisters will generally be at saturation. At the temperature of my freezer that would be around 50 kPa for n-butane and 200 kPa for isobutane. If by vacuum you mean less than 1 atmosphere then regular butane would fit that definition. But the atmospheric pressure is irrelevant when transferring between two canisters as it's a closed system. What matters is the pressure differential.

Anyway, I was using Jetboil Jetpower canisters so it should have been primarily isobutane, not n-butane, along with some percentage of propane. For one test I mixed the contents of two canisters into one of those larger 450g canisters, then transferred it back so that I'd have pretty close to identical mixtures in both 230g canisters.

I think your notion of an "air" space preventing transfer is incorrect. It's not air, it's fuel vapor, and it will increase or decrease in volume dynamically. I think the head space in the upper canister is more significant for a tilted setup as it dictates when the transfer switches between liquid feed and vapor feed. Vapor feed is much slower as it requires a lot more heat transfer. And it fractionates the mixture as well. Even with that, I am close to certain that I could transfer an entire full canister UP into an empty canister, simply by providing enough of a temperature difference.

Twice your method appeared to work for me with the transfer slowing to a stop close to 100% full. Was that a coincidence? One of those times I decided to re-chill the receiving canister and that's when it filled completely, to 125% full. So I'm still not sure about this. I presume you have successfully used this method yourself. What specifically did you do? It may be that the details are as important as the angle.
Last edited by Orion on Fri 18 Sep, 2020 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Orion » Fri 18 Sep, 2020 10:48 am

Nuts wrote:Having had the chance to see failures with factory filled canisters refilling is not something i'd do...


If the valve sticks open you'd have to keep your stove attached. I had to do that with a factory filled canister on one trip. It's a PITA but not something that would end the trip.

Refilling is definitely in the realm of at-your-own-risk behavior. Some of the brands fill the small cans to 110g. There's a safety margin built in so I figure it's probably okay to fill a few grams higher, which I have done when I calculated that it would save me carrying an extra canister. What's the worst that could happen? :-)

Stove fuel isn't really expensive for most of us, not in a larger context. Petrol is a lot more. Fuel weight isn't really that bad either in most cases. But human nature being what it is...
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby wildwanderer » Fri 18 Sep, 2020 6:14 pm

Possibly a unpopular opinion but this ultra cheap gas does remove one of the regular reasons to visit your local speciality outdoor store.

I'm often in the local store etc buying some gas and dehydrated vegies for a trip.

While there, if I see some equipment or clothing I like, I will from time to time make a larger purchase.

I suspect many people are the same.

Now I fear many people won't make the visit and outdoor stores already hit from covid will receive another blow.

No affiliation to any store.. just don't want to see them go under.

Obviously gas won't be the hammer that breaks them but there is a culmative effect when the reasons to visit reduce.

I'll continue to buy gas from my local outdoor store.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby commando » Fri 18 Sep, 2020 8:37 pm

wildwanderer wrote:Possibly an unpopular opinion but this ultra cheap gas does remove one of the regular reasons to visit your local speciality outdoor store.

No affiliation to any store.. just don't want to see them go under.

I'll continue to buy gas from my local outdoor store.


The Home Consortium Group owns Chemist Warehouse, Anaconda and Spotlight stores

Super Retail Group Limited owns Supercheap Auto, outdoor and leisure retailers Macpac and BCF and sporting retailer Rebel Sport.

P.S. They won't go broke from $4 canisters getting in the way.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Neo » Fri 18 Sep, 2020 8:54 pm

I think smaller retailers were the intended.

Anaconda have the small jetboil canister for $15 (bah hahaa what the!) and BCF may or may not have any.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby wildwanderer » Sat 19 Sep, 2020 6:58 am

Neo wrote:I think smaller retailers were the intended.


Yep. I should have specified but I was meaning the specialised bushwalking/climbing stores like paddies, trek and travel/mountain equipment, Bogong etc etc.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby CraigVIC » Sat 19 Sep, 2020 7:12 am

There's a lot of merit in that. I'm sure meals and gas are important turnover items for the independents. The horse has bolted here however. There are no independents left to support and, as noted, Anaconda is right out there with its gas prices.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby commando » Sat 19 Sep, 2020 2:12 pm

If Kmart can sell these canisters for $4 and still make a profit, how much do they really cost to produce.
it seems the mark up is substantial...
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Aidan » Mon 21 Sep, 2020 11:06 pm

A bit for trivia, to remember if trans-Tasman travel is ever to happen again, Kmart has a NZ presence and the prices are the same (NZ $4) over there too.
www.kmart.co.nz/product/butane-canister-227g/3123312
They also have the stove at $55 NZ
www.kmart.co.nz/product/ultra-jet-butan ... ve/3121802
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby mikeRsyd » Sun 27 Sep, 2020 9:23 pm

They're cheap and they work, usually I would refill the smaller ones from the standard type cans. Wish they had smaller sizes aswell. Image

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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby ggorgeman » Wed 30 Sep, 2020 11:26 am

Can anyone point me to a link to buy the adaptor that has the same thread as the Kmart type canister (thus screws onto stove hose connector) and allows the butane "spray can" cheapies to connect. IE for direct use of the butane spray cans, not for refilling. Most that I see online have the wrong thread that won't connect to stove hose.
Hope that makes sense!
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Nuts » Wed 30 Sep, 2020 11:40 am

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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Mark F » Wed 30 Sep, 2020 11:51 am

If filling from the butane spray cans there is a pipe inside the can that ensures that only vapour, not liquid, exits the can. The notch in the ring around the valve determines the orientation of the can in the standard type stove. For refilling you need to orient the can 180 degrees from normal and keep it horizontal so you get a liquid feed.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby ggorgeman » Mon 05 Oct, 2020 3:10 pm

Nuts wrote:https://www.ebay.com.au/i/224034409290?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=224034409290&targetid=921460872233&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9072412&poi=&campaignid=10892897993&mkgroupid=107582961032&rlsatarget=pla-921460872233&abcId=9300398&merchantid=264046860&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrKKrvNCP7AIVygorCh30GAa-EAYYASABEgL-qPD_BwE



Many thanks... I have 2 on the way. Will file a report on using this source as an alternative to the stumpy canisters.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Nuts » Thu 08 Oct, 2020 7:10 pm

It's been a while since using them but don't recall any dramas, other than the time I forgot to take them.. which was a bit of a disaster.. fairly weighty things perhaps /? then the cans may be a bit lighter and easier to pack?
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby skibug » Tue 13 Oct, 2020 1:41 pm

"Spooky to have a 100% full canister. A 10% overfill is pretty safe. But completely chocked full at room temperature is just a tiny bit scary."

I think that you should be very careful with "overfills". An experience that has been observed is that too full a canister will "spit", ie eject droplets of liquid rather than gas, which produce a "fireworks" effect - not a comforting thing to see. Furthermore, the increased danger of rupture in a high temperature event (eg accidently leaving the canister inside a car in high summer temperatures) is not worth the extra few minutes of burn time. This is a greater risk if the mix contains propane.
I would always use scales to carefully monitor the fill, and immediately bleed excess gas if an overfill occurred.

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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby ggorgeman » Thu 15 Oct, 2020 2:23 pm

'Spray Can' adaptors have arrived, a quick test with the Kovea Moonwalker and it works fine (as you'd expect). Looking forward to the flexibility of being able to use (carefully) this fuel source, being aware of the importance of keeping the can secure to avoid flare-ups... if horizontal, slot-to-the-top always :wink:

Butane_adaptor1_min.jpg
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby ggorgeman » Fri 16 Oct, 2020 8:25 pm

A bit of further experimentation using the cheap butane canister and adaptor with the Moonwalker (which does have a generator). After allowing time for the generator to heat up, there weren't major flareups with some movement of the horizontal canister. The hose/fitting tends to keep the canister quite stable but some additional movement of the canister resulted in minor variation in the flame but definitely no flare up. I guess it's stove-specific, and worth testing your stove to know how it reacts. And to be generally careful.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Staceykate » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 3:22 pm

Can anyone confirm this gas fits a jetboil?
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby Huntsman247 » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 5:02 pm

Staceykate wrote:Can anyone confirm this gas fits a jetboil?
All screw type canisters are a standard fitting. So yes, it will fit a jetboil.
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Re: Kmart $4 gas

Postby CraigVIC » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 7:17 pm

Completely sold out in my local area, worth checking stock before making a special trip.
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