Montane 200 jacket non ripstop ripoff

[Ent]

Hi All

Well I finally got to use my Montane 200 jacket after two years in the cupboard and two walks in the pack. Now in the pack is the ideal place for it as it gives that secure feeling that you have protective clothing at a light weight. Using it in the real world destroyed that secure feeling along with the jacket $199 for two days actual use is a massive price for a few grams saved. Ok now the facts.

Headed in to Pelion Hut on the Magg 17 track. Light snow was falling that melted on contact with the body so on went the jacket and the MD photon pants. Careful dodging and weaving meant that the jacket emerged unscathed, unlike my fellow walkers light weight jacket that got a triangular tear. Next day was the climb up to East Pelion in a snow and ice bound trek. As for breathability the jacket is ok but not in the Gore-tex league. Piked the final scramble up the citadel due to ice and also the impression that scrambling would destroy the pants and jacket. One the way down scored an icy rock that launched me sideway down mainly onto my Kathmandu 18litre day pack. The packs is light weight itself but the material proved robust and only scuffed on the flat rock that I landed on. Not so the jacket. It tore in two places with the a long tear and sort of triangular tear. The attach photograph gives the best demonstration of this damaged. It appears that the fabric is non rip-stop as the tear was easily extended by a 1mm when examined.

Basically, this very expensive experience confirmed by suspicion that light weight jackets do not belong in the Tassie bush. Lovely to carry but ultimately useless in the real world of Tassie bush. I have taken a few tumbles in my Paddy Pallin Vista coat and suffered no damage to the coat. On the same walk a "traditional" walker came to the ground with a thud with only his pride being hurt and jacket undamaged.

Light weight gear compromises your ability to scramble and can leave you badly exposed when it fails in such a way. Please note, the woollen thermal layer was not damaged and I had no bruise on my arm so absolutely puzzled by the complete failure of the fabric. I know that such an experience and observations as this will upset some UL converts but basically for heading bush in a Tassie winter a traditional strength outer layer is the only real option. Sure the Montane Jacket is the best jacket I have ever carried and stylish as well, just do not wear it in the bush like as with another brand of jacket recently reviewed by a buyer as that is not where it belongs.

Not all bad news as the MD Photon pants stood up well and breathed ok but then again not in the same league as my PP ones so I avoid sliding down icy slopes using my bottom as a breaking device

Cheers Brett

Attachments

Damage to a Montane 200 jacket second day in the real world

[Jellybean]

Um, Brett, you can't treat UL gear like heavy weight gear and expect it to survive (just as you wouldn't take a Ferrari up a boggy 4WD track and expect it to make it). UL gear has all the advantages of being lighter weight but does require a bit more care (some of the lighter weight sleeping bag materials are another case in point). Different horses for different courses. It seems from your stories that you are probably better suited to heavier weight gear.

Cheers,

JB

[Nuts]

Yer, id agree, never was a good idea for you that jacket, from what you say of the md pants you should probably have suspected the jacket would fail?
(Seems pretty obvious, maybe you should have just asked me )

Not much from this for me... lighter gear is likely not stronger and perhaps that brett is clumsy

This is also an entirely different jacket and problem than the Macpac jacket and its not really very fair to mention that either?

Thant material looks similar weight to Marmot precip, very thin! I guess that the cross weave wouldnt stop a rip, should stop it getting bigger though?

[Moondog55]

Nothing a little ripstop tape won't fix, this sort of warm clothing always needs a shell for protection and is probably why my duvet spends most of it's life stuffed in the bottom of my pack. I am seriously thinking of going back to Ventile and PVC after my last "Accident" with a lightweight shell

[sthughes]

I was following Brett when this happened and honestly the jacket was hardly touched when he fall, I was gob-smacked when he stood up and I saw the damage. Had the lightweight pack been damaged I would have understood, because he landed almost entirely on it, but the jacket seemed to fall apart just from the scare! That jacket is strictly for wide open tracks and no chance of slipping (i.e. summer use), the way it rips wide open is astonishing, especially for $200.

I'm a bit more tolerant of failing gear than Brett and while I also holed my Ultra Light rain coat it was nothing surprising or unacceptable given it's lightweight construction. I'm still quite happy with it for the weight and cost. On the other hand if I was in Brett's position I would be annoyed.
My UL Rain Shield jacket is lighter, more breathable, much, much cheaper and while it may hole more easily it doesn't split wide open at the drop of a hat. It also lacks the style of the Montane!
I have seen Marmot Precip rain gear come out unscathed in much, much worse situations.

[Nuts]

yer, I didnt see that bigger rip at first, thats pretty bad. A roll of duck extreme would make it 'safe' again short-term though.
Montane focus seems mostly to athletic/outdoors gear, they do have some very lightweight stuff...
I have one of their rain jackets though and it is full weight, three layer, tough, so they do have them in the range...

[Moondog55]

If the fall was that little and the impact so slight I would be asking for a full refund, "Not suitable for advertised purpose" under the trade practices act i think

[flatfoot]

This is a tearable story! Seriously though, I hope my new Montane rain pants are more durable.

[geoskid]

This is a tearable story!

Very good Flatfoot, thats a ripper - brought tears to my eyes.

[geoskid]

but the jacket seemed to fall apart just from the scare!

Haha, I dont blame it - I've met Brett and heard what he does to walking sticks - I'd be scared too.
Yeah, Bummer Brett, we live and learn.

[ollster]

As an aside, I usually fix these sorts of rips with Seam Grip with some backing sticky tape to hold the tear together while it cures. Works brilliantly.

Looks like that garment is a pile of *&%$#! though and no amount of glue will fix that.

[Ent]

Hi

Yeap. Sthughes summed it up best re the fall. It was a rather non event as falls go. Simple feet out from under me and down I went. I believe that the falls on the Magg 17 track are much more spectacular Nuts, so you must demonstrate your jacket protecting technique to me some time, maybe even in slow motion Matrix style but with a shorter jacket Basically I would have hoped that in the open alpine ground around East Pelion the jacket would have been safe bet once past the prickly plants. It is almost that it exploded rather than was punctured. It was my natural respect of slippery icy rocks on East Pelion that meant that the jacket and pants were not deliberately damaged in scrambling over icy rocks. I hate to imagine had I packed that jacket for the snow walk in Meston as people on that walk will tell the gifted less "clumsy" that falling not falling down was not an option on that walk:shock:

The simple fact is in winter time, especially in Tassie, you run a reasonable chance to fall over especially if you investigate the numerous side tracks. Some gear is simply not suitable as demonstrated in a rather expensive style. A simple slip on an icy Launceston step would have had the same expensive effect. I have the Montane Terva pants that Nuts put me on to and they a brilliant, lightweight, strong and water resistant enough to avoid the need for waterproof over-pants for most conditions so happy to take them with me. My main annoyance is that the jacket fabric appears to have no tear resistance weave unlike Sthughes jacket which despite its light weight did not continue to tear once punctured.

Temporary fixed the jacket from tape from the first aid kit but will bin it as simply not a safe standard.

There is a lot of gear been sold with numerous claims and counter claims and all I do is report what I find and experience in Tassie. Jellybean, I have no idea what is suitable for you but I am far from an extreme walker by Tasmanian standards, in fact more a softy compared to most regular walkers of say the LWC. Reading that a jacket falls when exposed to a bit of dirt and dust or a rather mild fall does bode as a warning to potential buyers, as walking gear is extremely expensive for those of us that buy at retail pricing. Of course that there are people that will blame the user but in this case at least there was a witness.

It is interesting in a conversation with a fellow walker on that trip re boots. In years gone by you "suffered" breaking boots in and sometimes even did not succeed but the boots themselves never failed. Now in the search for instant comfort many boots sold are rather stuffed in a year or two gentle walking. I suppose we get what we ask for. So maybe as "harden" individuals get more vocal specialist gear manufactures might emerge producing robust rather than consumer grade gear in much the same way that UL specialist have sprung up filling that market niche. Maybe I will get to laugh with them as Ultra-tough labelling gets banded about as the UL label does in the marketing games played by the big, or would be big players.

Do not get me wrong. Lightweight and modern materials combined with updated designs are wonderful but if overdone it removes the utility nature of a product. As for the bum-freezer jacket style that is almost universal in most shops, I say bunkum, give me the old style any day and leave the bum-freezer for looking trendy on the half-pipe

Cheers Brett

PS

Geoskid, Not one Black Diamond walking pole was harmed in the making of this episode If I do break a Black Diamond walking pole I would like to see the footage as they have proven to be brilliant with four out of five walkers on the last trip using them.

[Jellybean]

Hi Brett,

If we are to stay safe in the outdoors, especially in “harsh environments” such as Tassie in winter, then at some stage we need to take responsibility for our own decision making and actions and learn from them rather than just placing the blame elsewhere.

With regard to this, a few things stood out from your initial post:

1. In the past, you’ve regularly commented on your large mass and great height and your propensity for falling and breaking equipment. (Hmm, large mass falling from lofty height wearing ultralight jacket – chances of damage to jacket? High. Add Tassie winter conditions (snow and ice) – increased risk of falling, chances of damage and exposure as a result? Even higher.

2. You also regularly comment on how silly mainlanders and other “foreigners” frequently underestimate the harsh Tassie conditions and venture out ill equipped and unprepared only to come unstuck.

However, despite 1 and 2, you chose to venture out on your recent trip in the "harsh Tassie winter" (snow and ice expected as well as abrasive rock surfaces) with an untested ultralight jacket. Not surprisingly, given 1. above, the jacket was damaged, putting you at some risk of exposure.

Say what you will about the jacket failing, the decision to take it in the first place, given the above comments, was really not your smartest one. You need to take some responsibility for that decision. You put yourself at risk with that decision.

In addition, you complained about the cost of the jacket (the pain of damaging outdoor gear always tends to be greater when we’ve paid a lot for it ), however the decision to pay $200 for a Montane jacket was also yours. Why pay $200 when you can buy a Montane jacket on sale online from overseas (correct size with some sensible research) for half that price?

The point is, to stay safe (and avoid costly losses), take responsibility and learn from your actions rather than always laying the blame elsewhere.

Cheers,

JB

[Franco]

As usual I found this comment "If the fall was that little and the impact so slight I would be asking for a full refund, "Not suitable for advertised purpose" under the trade practices act i think'
a bit peculiar. But keep in mind that I was in retail for 30 years...
As far as I am concerned, a rain jacket is sold to protect you from the rain not to pad you falls.
I happen to have a Montane smock made with that material and it does what is meant to do, matter of fact that is the one I used for the Overland.
Obviously I would be annoyed if I fell and ripped it but that is part and parcel of the game.
Franco

[Nuts]

Brett, i'll do that! (Can I borrow your jacket for the test )
I'm curious, I have an XL Montane jacket and it is Just big enough for My girth.
I talked to them about larger sizes, did you get one (if not perhaps ive found the problem for you )

I dont envy gear manufactures, I dont think i'd do well at it, I would be too choosey as to who I sold stuff.

[Ent]

Hi Nuts

Happy to hand over the jacket for testing as it certainty not what I want from a jacket. It is a XXL and size is not too bad, even if a fraction short in the sleeves. One of the weird things with height is people assumed big all over. I am 6'3.5" but in a cinema many people under 5'8" sit higher than me so most of my length is in my limbs. My wing span is over two metres. Scottish genetics mean I am barrelled chested so have set some record for lung capacity at the local medical centre, but boy I could do with more on step hills

Jellybean, I am curious by your comments. I have in the past been condemned for not understanding or using lightweight gear but when I do and it fails then I am now condemned for using it. Err? not been married I can not be asked "if I have stop beating my wife" type loaded question but the logic applied appears to be the same By Tassie standards the walk into Pelion and up Pelion East is not exactly extreme, in fact more a beginners grade overnight walk The Magg 17 track is a bit more closed in than the Arm River track but not that extreme. If the weather was bad on Monday I would have joined my companion and dodged Pillinger and left that to the better equipped members of the group. I carried the jacket on at least two walks into non threatening terrain in fine weather but err, um, it did not rain so I suppose any jacket would have been ok? The simple fact is I chose to take the jacket because I had done almost the exact same trip a few weeks earlier so I assume that would give me the experience to make the judgement call as you are no more than five hours from safety so my great mass and size along with proper other clothing means baring an injury I would have been just uncomfortable and financially poorer. Also walking in a group means if injurred rescue would not be far off. Not exactly a solo walk exploring the New River in mid winter Frankly, I was expecting a chance of the occasional hole that sthughes experienced, not the thumping great tear that happened. The whole experience does confirm my view that people pushing light weight products simply do not wish any adverse comments to be made about such products. I have had the jacket for over two if not three years so thought it was time to test it given what hype about light weight gear has been posted on this site. Yes you are right Jellybean, lightweight gear is not suitable for Tassie mild early winter walks unless you have personally experienced the conditions and aware of the limitations and even then unplanned if not unusual events can happen that will show up big time the deficiency in it:wink:

Cheers Brett

[Jellybean]

Jellybean, I am curious by your comments. I have in the past been condemned for not understanding or using lightweight gear but when I do and it fails then I am now condemned for using it. Err? not been married I can not be asked "if I have stop beating my wife" type loaded question but the logic applied appears to be the same By Tassie standards the walk into Pelion and up Pelion East is not exactly extreme, in fact more a beginners grade overnight walk The Magg 17 track is a bit more closed in than the Arm River track but not that extreme. If the weather was bad on Monday I would have joined my companion and dodged Pillinger and left that to the better equipped members of the group. I carried the jacket on at least two walks into non threatening terrain in fine weather but err, um, it did not rain so I suppose any jacket would have been ok? The simple fact is I chose to take the jacket because I had done almost the exact same trip a few weeks earlier so I assume that would give me the experience to make the judgement call as you are no more than five hours from safety so my great mass and size along with proper other clothing means baring an injury I would have been just uncomfortable and financially poorer. Also walking in a group means if injurred rescue would not be far off. Not exactly a solo walk exploring the New River in mid winter Frankly, I was expecting a chance of the occasional hole that sthughes experienced, not the thumping great tear that happened. The whole experience does confirm my view that people pushing light weight products simply do not wish any adverse comments to be made about such products. I have had the jacket for over two if not three years so thought it was time to test it given what hype about light weight gear has been posted on this site. Yes you are right Jellybean, lightweight gear is not suitable for Tassie mild early winter walks unless you have personally experienced the conditions and aware of the limitations and even then unplanned if not unusual events can happen that will show up big time the deficiency in it:wink:
Cheers Brett

Hi Brett,

I think the points that Franco, Nuts and myself have made are very clear and can't be made any clearer. I won't try to repeat or clarify further.

As for your comments above - I have got absolutely no idea what you are trying to say - I turned off after the wife beating analogy - what the!!??? - and don't have time (or the inclination) to try and decipher it!?

Cheers,

JB

[corvus]

IMHO what Brett meant by the"wife beating analogy" was simply that when he was castigated for being critical of lightweight "stuff" not being suitable for a lot of Tassie conditions because he had not tried it he is now being castigated again for trying some of it out in Tassie conditions and after all anyone can fall over on an icy open track
corvus

[Jellybean]

This is my last post on this matter, I think it’s pointless to say any more:

A few key points from above (general advice to anyone considering using UL gear):

1. UL gear can be very effective when used in the manner (and in the environments) that the manufacturer intends .

2. A rain jacket is designed to protect you from rain, nothing else (i.e., not falls)(and further, if buying a UL rain jacket, check what
sort of rain it is designed to protect you from – e.g.,, light showers or heavy continuous rain or…. there are a range of different UL fabrics, they're not all
the same).

3. If you fall over a lot, for whatever reason, or will be operating in environments where there are abrasive rock surfaces, heavy scrub, etc. consider
something other than UL gear, it’s not designed for that (see point 1 above). UL gear is not designed to work like heavyweight gear, it requires more
care.

4. If you choose to use UL gear for purposes or in environments other than it was intended for, then that’s your choice, but also your risk/consequences. If
it fails, it’s your fault, not the manufacturer’s.

5. UL gear does not have to be expensive, if you shop around.

6. Any gear needs to be the right size and well maintained to be effective.

7. I, too, would hate to be a gear manufacturer or retailer because you will always get some people with unrealistic expectations expecting gear to be
something it’s not designed to be and then complaining loudly when it fails them when used outside the manufacturer's intentions (e.g., expecting a UL
rain jacket to protect you from falls as well as rain).

Cheers,
JB

[sthughes]

True Jellybean.

I think Brett is just pointing out that "environments other than it was intended for" includes any environment where a slip and fall is possible.

The primary environment this jacket is intended for is safely inside a pack out of harms way.

If people are going to bag someone for not trying something, surely it is unreasonable for them to chastise them when they do try it.

[Ent]

Dear Jellybean

What you have described means lightweight gear is unsuitable for Tassie or in fact anywhere where a fall can happen. Maybe a poll amongst walkers on what is the average fall rate per three day walk in winter might be enlightening. I would suggest most peopole would take at least one tumble in Tassie as I am not a statistical outlyer in what I have seen. As for bagging gear manufacturers what happened to "fit for purpose intended" argument? The jacket was sold as a bushwalking jacket by a local shop. Commonsense, told me that it might be a bit suspect so hence my relucantance to use it but hey light weight gear is great, or so I read. Well it is not appears if you take it bush. It is worthwhile noting that a would be participant of the walk could not go as their light weight pack was undergoing repairs from damage in earlier walks. Err? Not eactly promising performance based on this single trip.

I am sure that if you have deep enough pockets and can select "approriate" gear from a large range in your collection you can achieve the optium weight, assuming nothing unexpected happens. Most people do not have that luxury so buy gear to do a mulitude of walks in varying conditions.

It is disappointing that when I tried something and posted reports on it I am then roundly critised for using it. In fact earlier I used to be slammed for expressing my concerns and accused of not trying it. You may noticed I had posted my observations before on the weight and size savings and my hope it would pan out. It did not.

Yours faithfully

Brett

[blacksheep]

jellybean, it is easier to give up. you'll sleep happier

[alliecat]

True Jellybean.

I think Brett is just pointing out that "environments other than it was intended for" includes any environment where a slip and fall is possible.

The primary environment this jacket is intended for is safely inside a pack out of harms way.

If people are going to bag someone for not trying something, surely it is unreasonable for them to chastise them when they do try it.

Or you could say it's unreasonable to expect a jacket designed for cyclist and runners (possibly "adventure racers") to survive a fall onto dolerite without a tear. This particular jacket was designed with "lightweight" as the primary design criterion - not durability. To write off all lightweight jackets because this one particular model failed in the way it did is not rational. There are many lightweight jackets out there that are much, much tougher than this one. Maybe some research before a purchase would be a good idea?

I've had a Montane Atomic for 3 years now. It has survived many falls onto racks without any damage at all. If it tore I'd consider myself unlucky. I wouldn't immediately write off all "lightweight" rain jackets as unsuitable for Tasmania. If you applied that "logic" you'd have to say that boots, shoes, tents, walking poles, and backpacks are all unsuitable for Tasmania as somebody has experienced failure of particular instances of all of those items.

In short - it's a shame that this jacket failed, but given what it was designed for, it's not a big surprise. To leap from that to the conclusion that all lightweight jackets are rubbish in Tas is absurd.

[sthughes]

In short - it's a shame that this jacket failed, but given what it was designed for, it's not a big surprise. To leap from that to the conclusion that all lightweight jackets are rubbish in Tas is absurd.

Yes I agree this shouldn't degenerate to a blanket "lightweight is bad" topic. In my opinion there are some lightweight fabrics that are surprisingly resilient, however this one in particular is in my opinion (and I believe Brett's) total rubbish.

I don't know the marketing behind this particular jacket, if it was marketed to bushwalkers then thats bad marketing and the "not fit for purpose" argument holds. If marketed to road cyclists then not so bad as the wearer is much less likely to have a fall, if you come off a bike on biteumen then I suspect most lightweight materials might fail, but it's uncommon do do so and hence designing to survive it is not really necessary. I minor slip and fall when bushwalking is not uncommon in my experience.

My own jacket is marketed primarily at cyclists, hence I am not at all disappointed by it puncturing on a protruding tree branch.

I note Montane no longer list any jackets on their web site as light as this one (except a 125g jacket squarely marketed to cyclists). The lightest are almost 300g, perhaps they have worked out something in the last 2 years?

[Nuts]

Har Har, they probably worked out that the jackets will be bought by gram counters expecting miracles and hanging off every word printed

[Jellybean]

Har Har, they probably worked out that the jackets will be bought by gram counters expecting miracles and hanging off every word printed

Gram counters or bean counters!!?? Sorry, couldn't resist.