Moderation

[Nuts]

It has stayed on topic though, and is far more interesting than most discussions. Back to the boring beige, cucumber sandwich and Darjeeling tea 'debate '.

+1 it's been good reading with the mods keeping their claws away from the posts.

EDIT: Nuts et al - STOP CLEANING UP TOPICS. For gods sake if you guys didn't get OCD about forcing people to obey the rules then you'd save yourselves a lot of bother... let the topics roam free. So what if Corvus shoots his mouth off again? The discussions around here get ruined more often by brutal mod intervention than by the topics going off topic or people calling each other names.

what can I say.. people get offended by letting you guys one-up each other, they have as much right to the forum they want as the one you want for them..?

[wayno]

i've started threads that have gone off topic, but sometimes its still a productive or funny conversation so i dot have an issue, if no one is actually complaining about a thread going off topic does it matter as long as the conversation isnt deliberately offensive towards individuals or groups? sure if someone wants to put up their hand and complain the rules can be called into play,
but sometimes theres a train of thought going on and people are following it then so be it I say

[Nuts]

There are reports, there are personal comments (left in place as well as removed).. i can only suggest reading back through the topic for the hints?

I get the feeling it wouldn't matter the reasons, they wont be good enough for some (spoiling their personal version of fun). I guess those responsible will just have to live with the result if all the moderators can muster (at the time) is the patience for simple deletion rather than explanations or justifications like those given here (even if lacking appreciation for the effort taken to also keep sorting these things out behind the scenes...)

[wayno]

i'm certainly not into insulting anyone. its one thing to insult someone you know as a joke away from a public forum, but not people you dont know personally on a public forum...
sure thers a limit to going off topic... but there are grey areas as well... a can link to be can link to c. somewhere you're a bit off topic and further on you are way way off topic. i'm not suggesting to allow people to just hijack a thread for their own stimulation. there are grey areas where threads can still work a bit off topic. half the time i write something if its off topic because its going through my head and i see a connection..

[ollster]

what can I say.. people get offended by letting you guys one-up each other, they have as much right to the forum they want as the one you want for them..?

The difference is I don't want their posts deleted.

And anyway, YOU used to be one of the biggest antagonists on this forum!!! What happened?! You used to be cool, man!

[frenchy_84]

can you all talk about this in a seperate topic, its ruining the discussion

[Hallu]

I guess talking about off-topic rules is indeed off-topic.

[stepbystep]

Then why moderate one and not another that's discrimination, unfair and just nuts

[photohiker]

I must be blind, I can't see any posts edited or removed in the mining topic?

Do the mods mark where they have removed text from a post, or whole posts?

[Nuts]

If they are bad enough to need moderation i just move the whole post. If its from someone for whom an explanation would waste both our time then I don't bother even informing them they are moved to the moderation forum and added to the 'war and peace' that is a topic entitled 'removed posts' life on the forum goes on as if nothing happened. I guess if, over time, these build up or the person really wants a ban then that is decided (with generous deliberation) as a moderation team. Be a shame if that happened.

If it is a comment within an otherwise relevant post then you would normally see a (colour coded) moderators response in that post..

______

I'll get around to looking at the few others discussing moderation later. It doesn't help the Tarkine Mining topic that the offending posts are still there (someone else can have a go at them..) but hopefully makes the rest easier to read.

Wayno

Keeping 'on topic' is at moderation discretion. I could respond to that page of posts but then there would just be another page of posts only marginally related to the topic. As a forum member I think the topic is important enough to at least try to confine discussion to the Tarkine.. ie as a forum member, giving an opinion.. not thinking of moderating your contribution.

Ollster. ..

[wayno]

tarkine is bound to be a sensitive topic, especially for those who like to frequent the area,
i know i feel personally attached to my favourite areas..., its something you care about so who are outsiders to come in and comment about it let alone come and mine...

[wayno]

one answer is for the rules to state the moderators can remove without explanation and suspend accounts without warning for flouting the rules....
we know some people repeatedly flout the rules and , sail close to the wind and stay on the site
if they want a no holds barred fforum, there are places you can start your own forum with your own rules...

[tasadam]

one answer is for the rules to state the moderators can remove without explanation and suspend accounts without warning for flouting the rules....

Already in the rules. Have a read of This.
Doesn't do much good, it seems.

[wayno]

lengthy suspensions, with increasing periods for repeat offenders..

[LandSailor]

Newer versions of forum software like XenForo have a discouraging feature (set random delays and fake errors for selected users).

[ollster]

Ollster. ..

Point taken...

[MrWalker]

I though the conversation was remarkably civil, considering that it's a topic that many people have very strong views about. Some personal comments were technically relevant to the topic if they related to where people live and what work they do (if any).

[corvus]

I am personally happy to have any of my posts if deemed required Moderated, however I do believe that we should have the opportunity to ask questions without fear or prejudice , repartee, give and take in an open forum is a healthy thing and keeps interest in some posts especially some where strong views from both sides of the coin are evident .
corvus

[Nuts]

I though the conversation was remarkably civil, considering that it's a topic that many people have very strong views about. Some personal comments were technically relevant to the topic if they related to where people live and what work they do (if any).

No doubt you do! Posts discussing moderation have been split to here by request (if nobody complained it would likely have been done anyway) one or two of those that remain in the Tarkine topic that would likely continue the flaming have been modified others may stay, who knows.

As a moderator though I would agree with pretty much any moderation the other members of the moderation team do, afterall, they are the ones making the effort.. besides which it's no skin of my nose to show a bit of empathy for those that aren't (like me). To me, if I can do that i'm sure anyone can! For those that can't.. well, there are rules, moderation, warnings blah blah. Quite simple really!

Its been pointed out ad nauseum that personal attacks break these rules. It goes on until someone either gets the last hurtful word in or changes the topic to spite.. sometimes others point these topics out, other times the moderators catch them along the way, often they have to wade through trying to keep what is good within topics. Sometimes they let things simmer in the hope of not being dragged into the tedium of sorting out petty problems. It's not the case that they 'need' to do this or that it doesn't 'work' a different way on other forums but it is the case here. Them's the rules! We've all seen the lengths to which these guys have gone to explain the rules over the years. If you don't personally agree with any given decision perhaps just trust that there may be more to it. Maybe the particular moderation seems harsh, maybe we even get it 'wrong'

Me.. as I said, I care more about the general good than antagonist feelings. If you don't like the decision and I don't feel like more than a token explanation, suck it up!! Find your attention elsewhere

[Son of a Beach]

Just two quick points to add...

Firstly, people should not consider all moderation actions to be 'disciplinary' actions. Splitting off-topic posts to another topic is not necessarily done because people have done anything wrong. In many cases (as in this one) it is simple house-keeping in order to make the original topic more consistent and readable to those who want it to stay on topic, while enabling the other evolving discussion to continue separately. This should benefit both sides, in most cases (although I know it may be a little jarring to find things moved at first, but we usually try to add a link post to the original topic pointing to the new topic).

Secondly, there is no one way to run an online forum such as this that is going to please everybody. There will always be people who think we're too lenient while other people who think we're too draconian. It makes no difference what the moderators do, it will never suit everybody. Therefore we have to aim to run the site in the way that we believe will benefit the community the best. We've made some decisions about that, and we don't expect everybody to agree with it. So as Nuts said, if you don't like it, I'm afraid you'll just have to suck it up.

We recognise that the way we run these forums is not appreciated by some people, but it is my belief that we would lose more members if we changed it much. There are already several members who have left due to be offended repeatedly by complete strangers. I'm sure there would be many more who would simply not join if they found the site was full of offensive material. Yes, some of them are over-sensitive, softies, conservatives, or whatever, but I'd still like to make them welcome and to have their contributions included.

Of course we aim to be reasonable and don't delete or edit or even mention every little offense. But we do aim to minimise overtly offensive post content, and to keep this a civil place.

Strong healthy debate is a great thing to have here, but people do tend to get emotional about some issues, and great care should be taken by all people involved in such discussions to debate the topic without insulting people with different points of view.

[Nuts]

Thanks Nik, yes, I should have mentioned that this was a split topic. Also that if people do genuinely think they have been unfairly treated I would refer their concerns to other moderators as we each do. It's easy to make mistakes when several issues might have attention at the same time.

[tasadam]

I am personally happy to have any of my posts Moderated

You see, this is the point that gets to me.
A great effort was put in behind the scenes to design the rules the way they are, so that if rules were being broken, there are measures the moderation team can (and should, but often don't) take as a result.
The purpose of all of this is so that we didn't need to do anything if people follow the rules. That's it, we were doing too much cleaning up of the nasty or yucky stuff (banter or worse), and to help find a solution to this, we try to structure the rules and the moderation guidelines so that those members who continually break forum rules may find themselves under the scrutiny of some form of disciplinary action (warnings or banning) so as to encourage you to follow the rules.
Two reasons - to keep this forum nice, and to give us as moderators less to do.

So if you have no problem with your posts being moderated, please think about the consequences more carefully and adjust your own content accordingly. We do grow tired of the same old thing and eventually, push is likely to come to shove.

[wayno]

remember moderators arent making a living from doing this, it's using up their spare time to clean up after people who don't or won't follow the rules, i think its like throwing litter on the ground because you know someone will clean it up, and the person cleaning it up isnt even getting paid for the job.
just writing whatever you want whenever you want is wasting a few peoples time repeatedly.
saying i'm happy to have my posts moderated is like saying i'll do what i like and you do all the work to sort out the issues with what i do...

[taswegian]

I wouldn't infer from Corvus's statement he wasn't concerned about what he said and just let the moderators sort it out.
Maybe he is simply saying he feels free/ confident enough to speak into a subject and if it causes offense then he won't chuck a tantrum because his comments were 'moderated'.

Forum's are always a difficult place to discuss as we all know. That also makes the moderators task all the more onerous.

Wayno you are right about the time and effort factor and I would hope we all take our responsibility seriously when it comes to things we say.
as Tasadam wells says

So if you have no problem with your posts being moderated, please think about the consequences more carefully and adjust your own content accordingly

[corvus]

I personally feel that if I have a question to ask regarding the background /motive of those posting it should be permissible however if my reply or questions appears to be sensitive or offensive to some and Mods deem them as unappropriated I can live with that if moderated.
Wayno I found your post offensive to me !! do I request its moderation no I think not.
corvus

[photohiker]

Personally, I think questioning someone's background and other irrelevant personal information rather than discussing the actual topic is a move to censor or devalue the other person's opinion, so we definitely disagree on that (surprise) It's an Ad Hominem.

Now that the dust has settled, I removed myself from the topic because we were getting nowhere. Any further response from myself received a more and more offtopic escalation, ending with this:

Michael you have been a critic of others on this forum so chin up and bear it man it is not life and death and when all said and done just a bit of fun,sorry if I have offended you but post on an open forum especially on an emotive topic like this one you can expect some heat in the reply's (really could not care less about your personal circumstances) but it did get a response

Highlights mine, translation not necessary.

As I said, if you read on from that point, I focused on the topic and removed myself. I have better things to do, and in this case I apologise for and regret not removing myself sooner. When things go astray as they had in that topic, either one of the antagonists has to stop responding or the mods have to get involved because the thread turns to crap.

To be fair to corvus, I did throw down the gauntlet by pointing out that I did not have a job, had visited the area multiple times, and yet I still thought Mining the Tarkine was a bad idea. Given corvus' repeated responses that one's job and personal situation was more important than, (and somehow determinants of) one's opinion this must have rather salted the earth for him.

I have indeed been a critic of others on the forum, but if you read what I have written, my criticism is generally not personal. I may counter someone's opinion, or perhaps criticise their behaviour. Never have I questioned someone's opinion based on their job status or personal situation. I have received a bit of that though, and normally I just let it slide.

Just to be clear, in this post I am being critical of both corvus' and my own behaviour in that thread. We could have done better.

[wayno]

interesting someone takes offence at my comments, I don't attack individuals. yet someone wants to take personal offence as if im directing comments at them...

[andrewbish]

interesting someone takes offence at my comments, I don't attack individuals. yet someone wants to take personal offence as if im directing comments at them...

I suspect he was being tongue-in-cheek in the above comment

[Drifting]

I've been a member on this forum under two different names for a lot longer than most of the non-moderators on this thread, and what they may or may not realise is that a lot of the "fun" that goes on here has driven away some serious, dedicated members. The list of those who no longer post or come around is pretty long. I hardly ever post here myself, as I just haven't got the stomach for it anymore.

As a reference for those of you who care- if I had kept one account, and used this forum like I did in the past, I'd be well over 5000 posts now, easy.

I'm sure you don't care about my own involvement, which is fine, but when you look at the list of those who either rarely or never post anymore, you should be able to see why the Mods and Admin who sink a lot of hteir own time into this site (not to mention money) DO care.

And don't give me the line of "that's how forums work." I run a forum nearly as busy as this, without any of the sort of issues the Mods and Admins are required to deal with here. There are plenty of other forums where one-upping and easily mis-interpretable, derisive statements are not made, or are at most rarely seen. I can name a half-dozen right off the top of my head, some Aussie, others not.

In my opinion, this forum has become so rough that when my daughter recently was invited to put up her (largely bushwalking)photos in a Tasmanian Gallery, with sales going to benefit a Tasmanian environmental NGO that directly contributes to bushwalking opportunities in the state, I decided not to announce it on here. An item about her work and the show went in the Advocate, local and state radio, and even on 6000 tourism magazines that are all over the state and on the Spirits.

Mind you- she's 8. She asked me- "Daddy, Mum said something on her quilting forum, why don't you say something on the bushwalking forum?"

My answer to her was, "It's not really that sort of forum."

And unfortunately, it isn't anymore.

[wayno]

theres bushwalkers and theres bushwalkers