B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

[tasadam]

Just imagine if we were all Collingwood supporters.

FF

Here here.
Surely we can't all be that daft.

(excuse any spelling, I'll type this quick)
Eddie Maguire and John Elliott were having a meeting. John was trying to explain why his Carlton boys were better than his Collongwood boys - because they were smarter.
Eddie couldn't get it.
So John says, here, let me show you. And he calls Steven Silvani over. Sos says Yes John, John says
Who is the son of your mother, and the son of your father, and it's not your brother and it's not your sister?
And Sos says That's easy John, it's me!
That's right says John, and off Sos goes to practice kicking goals from the 70 metre mark again.
Eddie says Ah, I see, it's because they're cleverer.
So eddie goes off back to the rooms and calls over Buckley.
Buck, he goes, I have a question for you - Who is the son of your mother, and the son of your father, and it's not your brother and it's not your sister?
And Buck ums and ars for a bit, so Eddie goes, OK I'll give you 24 hours to figure it out.
So, Buck gathers all the team mates together to try and nut it out. They're all getting desperate, because it's been 22 hours and they don't have the answer.
Then, suddenly, Buck goes I know, I'll ring Lee matthews - he's preety cluey.
So Buck rings Lee. And he goes
Lee. Who is the son of your mother, and the son of your father, and it's not your brother and it's not your sister?
And Lee goes It's me Buck.
Buck thanks Lee and gets off the phone. So Buck goes to Eddie and says OK Eddie I have the answer...
OK, says Eddie, Who is the son of your mother, and the son of your father, and it's not your brother and it's not your sister?
And Buck goes It's Lee Matthews!

And Eddie goes No you idiot, it's Steven Silvani...

[Son of a Beach]

Just imagine if we were all Collingwood supporters.

FF

I have a hard enough time imagining anyone being a Collingwood supporter!

*ducks for cover*

[Whos_asking99]

nice one tasadam

[flyfisher]

Go the cats

FF

[corvus]

Or even worse SILVERTAILS

[walkinTas]

Very, very funny Adam.

[frank_in_oz]

Go the cats

FF

Firstly to corvus - don't read it if it upsets you - there are plenty of great posts about other topics here....


Cats supporter, yes,- member for last 15 years or so. Live 400 metres from Kardinia Park -Go to all home games and most away ones- still gutted and bleeding

Member of the Green's - yes - and proud.

Sorry to all who were upset by this topic BUT it is called controversy corner and YES I deliberately posted to get some political discussion happening. Great to see so many interesting posts and passion. Thanks to all.

[corvus]

frank_in_ oz I am big and ugly enough to weather any brickbats or slings having lived to my three score + and it would take lots more to upset me in the real world .
My only concern is that our forum could end up in more mire than the "Sodden Loddins" if we stray from real BW topics like how light is your pack what do you eat and do you leave no trace
I really believe that politics and religion with tongue firmly in cheek(Collingwood) should not clog this forum even in the controversy corner

[tasadam]

I really believe that politics and religion with tongue firmly in cheek(Collingwood) should not clog this forum even in the controversy corner

OK Lets get it back to topic.
I watched the video.
I looked at a number of news articles on this subject, all eminating from the Mockery (nickname for Mercury - local newspaper - and, subjectively, rather an appropriate name in this instance?)
Having done all the reading of what's been reported, I figure I would have about a third of the story, but as that's all the info we get given by the media, here we go...

As the Premier is mentioned a fair bit in news regarding this, sorry Corvus, but it's a little hard to leave politics out of it so I'll keep it topical for ya. The Premier has condemned the action in one article, but such language (condemnation) is hard to find when reading a lot of what he said is being reported as being said. Words like "understandable" are deeply concerning.
That forest industries association guy that..... hang on let me find it.
Here it is

Forest Industries Association of Tasmania chief executive Terry Edwards said the two protesters in the car attacked on Tuesday must accept blame for the violence.

That's not very helpful, is it?
They sit on an access road to the forest in a vehicle with no wheels, they (allegedly) are given 3 seconds to exit by a Forestry Tas employee, then the violence erupts. And they are to blame for the violence? Go figure.
No amount of provocation can justify the violence I saw.
Sounds to me that the forestry workers people responsible for the attack seem to be capable of dishing out more than they get when it comes to provocation. If I were there and I were acting lawfully, I'd be feeling pretty intimidated.
And if I were the person in the tree with the camera, I'd be crappin me dacks coz I'd be dead if I was found...

Articles I found -
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html

The one downside to this that I see for ME is that I have been known to leave my vehicle parked unattended at the end of an isolated track for long periods.
I (we?) have nothing to do with "impede people going about their lawful business" or preventing the forestry workers from doing as they please.
But I can see the real potential for the actions of late to impact on all of us with increased attacks on unattended vehicles. It has happened to me in the past - a long time ago. Tainted with the same brush, so to speak, because we like to enjoy the remaining wild country.

One thing I cannot understand in all of this is why, if it were an illegal protest, weren't the police called to have the illegal protest removed and prosecuted?
Possibly, perhaos, it wasn't an illegal protest?

It will be interesting to see how it develops because I suspect there will be repocussions for Forestry Tas due to the fact that they had a representative there (who initially denied being there and has faced "disciplinary action" because of that). I think it needs an enquiry to see how in-bred this voilence and thuggery appearance really is. Let's go and spend lots of taxpayer dollars and charge it back to Forestry Tas.
Then when the botton line drops in Forestry Tas from a loss of $55 million ( http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html ) to an even greater loss, perhaps the Gov't will fix the real problem?
Identify that F.Tas are losing money while the businesses that are being handed the forests (not mentioning the "firearms" word), get to sell our forests at rock bottom chipped up prices.
And by the time the Government does anything, the forests will be gone.

[Taurë-rana]

Funny, I posted an impassioned response here the other day, but it doesn't seem to have arrived. I won't repeat it now though. I agree with your post Adam, and others. There is no excuse for violence except in self defence. Unfortunately there is a long history of intimidation and violence against people in Tasmania who have found that the only way they can get heard is to protest, and the only way to stop or slow up the devastation caused by the Forest Industry is to protect the trees with their bodies.
I've watched for 27 years, first as a bushwalker and then as a 4 wheel driver using the Forestry tracks, as the bush that I love has been ripped apart.Elsewhere in Australia 4wdrivers get their tracks closed by Parks, in Tassie we lose most of our tracks when they are turned into roads for log trucks, and the beautiful bush along the tracks is turned into a smoking ruin. It isn't sustainable, it releases huge amounts of CO2 that would otherwise stay locked up, it brings profits for a few, it turns our valuable specialist timber into woodchips, it has put many small sawmillers out of business.
As for car safety, I've been concerned for years about having anti-Gunns or green stickers on my car because of the potential for problems when I leave my car in isolated places. Mind you, given the state of my car which has comprehensive insurance, I probably ought to cover it with stickers now
Oh yes, and I am a Greens supporter, but that doesn't mean I support all their policies! I just think they are the only party with a social conscience, who care about the future for our descendants.

[Son of a Beach]

Funny, I posted an impassioned response here the other day, but it doesn't seem to have arrived. I won't repeat it now though.

I didn't delete anything... I promise!

[geoskid]

Thats funny, I have the opposite problem. I sometimes wake up in the morning and find that someone has posted some
indecipherable garbage under my username the night before, so I quickly delete it in case people think it was me! I think Nuts has had the same problem!

[Nuts]

hey i thought i did good indeesitherable babbl?

[tasadam]

hey i thought i did good indeesitherable babbl?

Wait til Corvus gets hold of this one - I can only imagine...

[GR20]

I have been only reading this forum for a few month, but have signed up today as a member to give my two cents worth. Firstly, great forum with lots of information. Good on ya.

The incident that I have seen on video is simply shocking. I've also read most of the info about it.

When I arrived in OZ in the late eighties, I used to live near Cairns. I can remember when the then Labor government shut down the logging in FNQ. Ravenshoe to be particular. The sawmill had to should down and the loggers went out of business. It is always hardship when one loses a job or is forced to close down an operation. But I think the decision at that time was the right one for the better of Australia as a whole. Cairns economy was/is booming thanks to the tourists that visit the area and want to experience the natural wonders.
75% of the Australian Rainforest has disappeared since white settlement.(source: The Australian Rainforest Association)
To come to the point. In my opinion this would have been a case for the police and not for someone to use his own excessive force and take the law in his own hands. In other countries the police looks after this. In Germany a couple of years ago, protesters blocked a nuclear waste rail transport to some newly opened underground storage. Huge numbers of protesters turned up to prevent this transport going ahead. The police cleared the way for the train and no one else! Just clearly, don't take the law into your own hand. The shocking part of this story is that the logger got so much sympathy and and understanding from some people in the community. There must be something very wrong with how people are influenced and can't be objective. Before this incident, I had no real sites, even being a conservationist, as I accept that people have to make a living and I was in the opinion that logging in Tasmania would have been done in a selective way. I don't support radical actions, but sometimes radical actions that don't harm anybody are necessary for the survival of other people. Remember the first trip the Greenpeace founders did on their yacht to the Muroa atoll in the Pacific to stop the French from their nuclear testing. I guess everyone welcomed this at some point in time. Cheers

[corvus]

Current situation Charges laid common assault- workers 3, trespass- protesters 4

[corvus]

In Vino Veritas

[frank_in_oz]

In Vino Veritas

Got me, had to look up the definition (we mainlanders are a bit slow) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vino_veritas

In vino veritas is a well-known Latin phrase. It means “in wine [there is the] truth”. It is also known as a Greek phrase “Ἐν οἴνῳ ἀλήθεια” En oino álétheia, which has the same meaning. The author of the Latin phrase is Pliny the Elder,[1] the Greek phrase is attributed to the Greek poet Alcaeus.

Meaning and Origin
Apparently the phrase refers to the circumstance that people seem to become uninhibited and tell what they really think (i.e. the truth) when they drink alcohol.

Already Pliny the Elder, who first mentioned this phrase, called the phrase a saying. The oldest known source for the phrase is the Greek poet Alcaeus. The Roman historican Tacitus tells about the Germanic peoples, that they always drank wine while holding councils, as they thought nobody can deceive effectively when drunken.

The phrase is very often continued as "in vino veritas, in aqua sanitas" - "the truth is in wine, the health is in water".

[walkinTas]

Does that mean we should only believe what Corvus posts after he has been drinking, and ignore what he posts when he has been drinking?

[tasadam]

Does that mean we should only believe what Corvus posts after he has been drinking, and ignore what he posts when he has been drinking?

Doesn't it mean we should believe everything Corvus says?

*stands back and waits...*

[Taurë-rana]

Does that make me always right?

Current situation Charges laid common assault- workers 3, trespass- protesters 4

By the way, how can you trespass on state land?

[tasadam]

how can you trespass on state land?

When the state (Forestry Tas) decide the only people allowed there are the forest workers (and protesting isn't a job according to them).

[corvus]

If protesting is "a Job" who is paying them??

[tasadam]

OK, for the sake of controversy, I'll respond.
You asked

If protesting is "a Job" who is paying them??

Well I didn't say it was.
What I did say was

(and protesting isn't a job according to them).

Perhaps they're right.
But then, according to Wikipedia,

Job may refer to:
Volunteer, where a person is serving the role without economic gain

So perhaps nobody needs to pay them for it to be a job as such.
There they are, tresspassing to serve in the role of protecting the forests from destruction. Tresspassing just as illegally as we would have been if we went for a bushwalk.
Having said all that, perhaps a better way of wording my last entry would have been

how can you trespass on state land?

When the state (Forestry Tas) decide the only people allowed there are the forest workers (and that makes anyone else including protesters and bushwalkers "tresspassers" according to them).

Not that it matters, I'm only responding like this to egg you along, Corvus!

[corvus]

tasadam oh how nice to pontificate from a secure job

[corvus]

To all my friends and foes .
Si peccasse negamus fallimur et nulla est in nobis veritas .
corvus
PS did not suffer Latin a School for years to let this one pass by lets hope my spelling is correct

[corvus]

Lets not be picky as to State Land I can think of many bits of it that are out of bounds to the general public for good reason.
Let me choose just one ,a logging coupe in State Forest,if every Tom Dick or Harry were allowed in there what do you think would happen to the OHS safety regulations especially if as as a "Trespasser "you got clobbered by a falling tree as opposed to being duffed up by a worker .
I think the protest movement which I believe to be valid should re assess and not be so confronting to the men on the job.
How would you feel if faced by this type of protest in your workplace and were docked wages for the lost Day,I suspect that none of us rely on "daily contract wages "so think before you post
Does that respond to your egg tasadam

[flyfisher]

I have been placed in a situation( as a contract worker ) where Icould not work because the crew of the Bruny ferry were on strike
and I could not get on the island.This with an apprentice to pay as well.
Forestry should give the contractor a different area to log as this matter will never be resolved (unless they lock up a lot of people)
Remember the Fracklin river blockade. These people will not go away because they don't want to see these OLD GROWTH forests
cut down and destroyed.Once they are gonethey will NEVER grow back.
The big problem with forestry is that nobody cares about toworrow or next generation.They only seem to care about the next 5-10 or maybe 20 years.
These trees are hundreds of years old,so the harvesters will never see another CROP like them.
Trouble is nobody seems to care much about whats going to be left in 80-100 years time.
The management of large logging companies are looking at the next few years and then "who cares -I'll have my super "
Forests are long term in a short term world.
Any trout fisher who loves river fishing can tell of how our rivers are being ruined by logging (and irrigators)with siltation in wet years and lack of environmental flows most other years.
Doesn't anyone think there is a connection between the loss of our old forests and lack of rain. Forests like Epping Forest have virtually dissapeared over the last 50 or more years and there is not much left to draw the clouds down from Ben Lomond as used to happen years ago.An OLD farmer from up Kingston (property) way was bemoaning this to me some years back.
This is just one part of the state. On the East Coast much has been lost and easterlies don't seem to come in the way the used to.
Folk from better watered parts of the state don't seem to notice whats happening in the east and south east, where all is brown and parched and denuding of our forests must be playing a part.
As far as "jobs" of protesters , or financial support ,there are many of us who provide the necessary with monthly donations so
these people can do all things possible to stop this sensless destruction ,untill the laws, attitudes or whatever can be changed,and these treasures protected.

FF

[tasadam]

they don't want to see these OLD GROWTH forests cut down and destroyed.Once they are gone they will NEVER grow back.

Congratulations on your post FF.
That is what it is about.

Not that it is entirely relevant here in this topic, but Gunns were going on about how they will never use old growth logs in the (proposed, but now "on the backburner") mill.
In my view, that's wht they've been pushing so hard to get rid of these old growth forests to woodchips with the odd log here and there keeping the local sawmill / craftsman etc happy, and replace the forests with rapid growtrh plantations.
Cynical? Perhaps. But the evidence is out there when you drive about, and I suspect it is a view held by many. Don't go asking for evidence I'm not going to run with that argument, I wasn't on the debating team at school. But I will say in support of my claim that, in the northwest on the way to Dip Falls, pretty good farming area that, first trip was farmland then forest - lots of forest until you reached the falls.
Been there lately? Farmland then plantation, more plantation, then hit the forest not far from the falls.
I'm sure it's like that in lots of places, but I have no evidence and in any case it's a bit off topic. (BIT???? )

And how would I feel, as you asked Corvus? I'd call the police and demand the illegal activity was ceased so I could resume my duties. As these worker thugs should have done, instead of boiling over like spoilt brats that haven't learnt manners yet and know no better than violence and thuggery, as is being portrayed by the media (definition of media relevant in another recent topic).
Treating another human being like that with the talking, let alone the violence, is just plain wrong. I guess the protesters do what they can to gain media attention. That camp at Florentine has been there for a long time, I didn't know about it until I went to Mt Anne and drove past it. I reckon many more would know about it now ??

On another matter I have read in papers of past that people get charged with common assault for punching someone else and end up with a $50 fine.
I don't know what sort of fine you end up with for tresspass. To me, assault sounds much worse - a crime against another person as opposed to a crime by being on a piece of land you're not supposed to be on, regardless of the circumstances I know that there is a difference (in my perception) to tresspass in a state forest for the sake of protesting to try and have valuable old growth forest saved, and tresspass in your loungeroom while you am sleeping. They look the same on the rap sheet.

I read my post and just figured it out! I have worked out the reasoning behind all the political statements that have enraged the protesting community of late.
Protesters protest, and tresspass, and get fined.
Workers protest with violence and get fined.
It's a win-win for the coffers of the Government - why would they want to fix the problem?

[MrCAMEL]

But I will say in support of my claim that, in the northwest on the way to Dip Falls, pretty good farming area that, first trip was farmland then forest - lots of forest until you reached the falls.
Been there lately? Farmland then plantation, more plantation, then hit the forest not far from the falls.
I'm sure it's like that in lots of places, but I have no evidence and in any case it's a bit off topic. (BIT???? )

One thing I can't understand is how everyone is big on promoting Tassie's big natural tourist attractions. Yet, for so many, like the Dip Falls, you have to drive past vast plantation areas, or worse, the remains after a logging. It does not at all look good. I went from Trowutta across Apiary Road. There was a bit going on.

And how would I feel, as you asked Corvus? I'd call the police and demand the illegal activity was ceased so I could resume my duties.

Calling the police would not do anything to deter any of this sort of stuff from happening. If I was so passionate about something like this (I mean passionate enough to camp in the bush for weeks on end and stand in the way of men with big machines), the police, or any fines they may give me, would be the last thing I would be scared of.
So how often should the worker have to call the police to get the people removed before they get a little bit pissed off ( although I know it is not an excuse) . It's not like the Maydena police are going to race in there flatout anyways.