Gun control vs people power?

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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby taipan821 » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 8:19 am

north-north-west wrote:
So people in Australia do not have the right to defend themselves from an attack at all? They are legally required to just stand there and take it?


you are allowed to defend yourself with force that is reasonable and proportionate

what that means....well it depends
in security that means whatever I have to do without causing bodily harm, in QAS as long as I use an open palm I can rip noses off and throw people into chairs and walls.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby north-north-west » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 1:51 pm

taipan821 wrote:
north-north-west wrote:So people in Australia do not have the right to defend themselves from an attack at all? They are legally required to just stand there and take it?


you are allowed to defend yourself with force that is reasonable and proportionate

what that means....well it depends
in security that means whatever I have to do without causing bodily harm, in QAS as long as I use an open palm I can rip noses off and throw people into chairs and walls.


Yes, that has always been my understanding and experience. The Seppo attitude of 'I though he was going to attack me so I emptied my Glock into him' doesn't stand a chance here. You have to respond appropriate to the situation, but you can respond with force if required.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 4:05 pm

I think that Victoria may be a bit different to some of the other states as I have had conflicting information from the local police and a mate of mine who is a local criminal barrister and the personal experience of a cousin of mine. It really is a great big bucket of worms and I think too much.
Not that I have had any great confidence in our court system for a long, long time
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wildwanderer » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 6:38 pm

wayno wrote:~snip~
i've seen a lot of debate on american forums about hiking with guns. some people think guns are essential on a hike because of the potential dangers, animals or people....
but a lot of hikers are adamant they don't need guns.... its very rare you hear about violence to hikers in america... and you have bear spray for the big predators which can actually be more effective than a gun, you dont need to be as accurate.. ~snip~


Sort of off topic but.. I listened to a presentation by guide and naturalist in Canada about bear attacks and he had personal experience of a near attack. He said use bear spray or dont bother. A grizzly bear can move at 48kmph (the fastest human Usain Bolt runs at 43kmph over 100m). The bear will close so quickly that a person is not going to have time to aim and repeatly fire a handgun. It would require a large calibre handgun and multiple shots to stop a 400 kg Grizzly bear. A shotgun might work but you would need to carry it loaded and ready to fire.. hardly practical on a hike. Bear spray on the other hand doesnt require you to be accurate and it works with one discharge.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 7:16 pm

There is an old joke about a hiker asking an old trapper if his .45 would stop a bear. The trapper who only ever carried a .22 said "Well, son, I recommend you file off the front sight."
"Of course! That will ensure the sight doesn't catch when I draw the pistol, so I can get the shot!"
"No ya numpty, its so it doesn't hurt as much when the bear takes you pistol away and shoves it up your....."
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Lophophaps » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 10:15 am

I prefer no sights on side-arms. I fall faster than a bear, and can solo rock better than a bear. Not off-widths, hate the damn things. Two discussions on gun control.
http://thebigsmoke.com.au/2018/02/15/fa ... n-control/
http://thebigsmoke.com.au/2018/03/14/ma ... ormal-now/
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 10:28 am

Europeans had school shootings, too. Then they did something about it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... eaa5c3192a

this guy happens to be a school social worker and happens to be an experienced hiker as well, writing about his take on teh causes of shootings in schools

https://bedrockandparadox.com/2018/03/1 ... -of-trump/
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Orion » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 10:30 am

Lophophaps wrote:I prefer no sights on side-arms. I fall faster than a bear, and can solo rock better than a bear.

Are you sure? A black bear in Yosemite climbed some 5.7 to get to a hung food bag. I think that's something like 13-15 Australian. Presumably Grizzlies, Browns, and Polar Bears aren't quite as good... but I'm not certain that's been well tested.

By the way, it's interesting to read the views on guns. It's quite a contentious issue here. Most people in the U.S. don't even own guns and the vast majority of guns are owned by a very small number of people.

In some ways I'm also looking in from the outside since, although I'm an American, I live in San Francisco which is pretty far to one end of the spectrum politically. My own feeling is that there is a fear of any sort of gun control being a slippery slope that could lead to a complete ban. It's irrational maybe but I believe it's a big reason why nobody wants to give even a inch, not even when it's so obvious. The latest mass shooting seems to have resulted in a reaction that has perturbed the status quo a bit. Hopefully it's an effect that will be more than transient.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 10:58 am

i think it depends on where you live, friend of mine lives in the south east and she says they are more likely to be armed to the teeth down there
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Lophophaps » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 11:56 am

Wayno, interesting links, thanks. Orion, YIKES!! US 5.7 is indeed about Australian grade 14. With that in mind I think I will camp in a safer place, such as Syria.

Orion, you have second amendment rights, and unless there is a varied constitutional this will not change. Fact is US citizens are being shot at an alarming rate. Start with the big ones - assault rifles. Some of these guns have huge cartridges and go a very long way. Some are proscribed, such as military weapons. Another avenue may be to have uniform laws across the country. Australia does this with federal laws agreed by all states and territories, and then the states and teritories pass laws that mirror the federal one.

I suspect that the tide of public opinion about guns is turning in the US.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby north-north-west » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 12:13 pm

The constitutional pro-gun argument is ludicrous.
If they could amend the Constitution to give everyone the right to shoot the *&%$#! out of one another, they can amend it to restrict that right.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 12:29 pm

Lophophaps wrote:I suspect that the tide of public opinion about guns is turning in the US.

I suspect you are an optimist. As for all past disasters, there'd be a bump in public opinion and then the debate and actions will get drowned out by the mass media with endless excuses. It's entrenched and brainwashed in a significant section of the society and the moment one brings out 2nd Amendment rights, all gets shut. Unless one can reverse the Supreme Court interpretation...
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Orion » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 12:29 pm

The Second Amendment is open to interpretation. And it is our courts that do the interpreting. The most recent decision of great significance ruled that it is an individual right, not one specific to any sort of regulated militia, despite those words being in the amendment. But the court also left open the possibility of government limits. Nobody can just buy a surface to air missile; they're disallowed. So in a similar way military style rifles could also be outlawed. They were for a while. They are right now in California. But in general the law of the land allows almost anybody to buy one without any waiting period. And also to buy and install a device that turns it into a kind of poor-man's automatic weapon. To many people in U.S. this is insane. Polls show that most want these laws changed, even while allowing someone to buy and own a firearm. But the deck is stacked against change. For now.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Giddy_up » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 12:43 pm

Given the actual document has only been amended 18 times over 200+ years its clearly not done without much debate or consideration. I wouldn’t like to bet on any change soon.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Orion » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 12:51 pm

An amendment is unlikely in the foreseeable future. But change can take other paths. Those young students in Florida are inspiring.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 12:52 pm

Not sure I agree with you technically there Lophophaps
The Armalite and all its clones use a 5.56mm cartridge, that a .22 and while it does go quite a long way people forget that even a bog standard 22 Long Rifle can be lethal at a kilometre.
The Armalite ammo is basically a long range rabbit cartridge, it's just that as a species we are pretty easy to kill being so soft skinned.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Orion » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:24 pm

Moondog, my limited reading on the subject points to velocity as being the key difference between a standard .22 and an "assault" rife. A .22 can kill you but the bullets from the assault style weapons are so much more destructive of human flesh and bone.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Giddy_up » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:49 pm

Orion wrote:Moondog, my limited reading on the subject points to velocity as being the key difference between a standard .22 and an "assault" rife. A .22 can kill you but the bullets from the assault style weapons are so much more destructive of human flesh and bone.


It’s not the style of firearm that makes the projectile more dangerous. 5.56 cal bullets fired from a single shot weapon are just as deadly as the same bullet fired from an AR-15.

Velocity makes a difference up to a point but caliber or projectile weight makes more of an impact. Kinetic energy from a projectile changes with the increase of the weight of a projectile. This chart shows the difference. All the same caliber with increasing projectile weight and very different bullet energy rates over distance. This kinetic energy will amplify the projectiles performance down range.Image
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:57 pm

Moondog55 wrote:Not sure I agree with you technically there Lophophaps
The Armalite and all its clones use a 5.56mm cartridge, that a .22 and while it does go quite a long way people forget that even a bog standard 22 Long Rifle can be lethal at a kilometre.
The Armalite ammo is basically a long range rabbit cartridge, it's just that as a species we are pretty easy to kill being so soft skinned.



that is completely incorrect, i cant find the article but i read one by a radiologist who has seen a lot of gun wounds
, assault riffles can be much higher vlocity and can have a more aerodynamic round, the physics when the high velocity ammo gets into flesh is far more destructive, it causes cavitation behind it destroying flesh, inner organs can literally explode when hit by high velocity ammo... some people cant be saved once hit, its just a mater of time because of the injury caused, the round is more likeyh to pass through teh body and the exit wound can be one of the worst aspects, ripping out large amounts of flesh, the entry wound might be small when you look at a deer carcass but whats happened inside is a lot different, thats why you cant hunt deer with a 22 and you can with .223

edit
i've found the article mentioned above and here it is....

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ns/553937/

more details about the energy involved here

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/p ... ncna848346
Last edited by wayno on Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:57 pm

Orion wrote:The Second Amendment is open to interpretation. And it is our courts that do the interpreting. The most recent decision of great significance...

Indeed, or more precisely, how the mix of liberal-conservative Supreme Court judges on the top bench is stacked. Interpretation can change quickly but I don’t see a significant change in that mix to liberal’s favour soon. Did any forefather think that the Supreme Court judges should more directly reflect the community view than a political game for the politicians? The politicians can nominate but the people are given direct voting right, as for the tabulation of the popular vote. Again, not likely to happen in an archaic political structure where self-interests dominate.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:10 pm

Orion wrote:Moondog, my limited reading on the subject points to velocity as being the key difference between a standard .22 and an "assault" rife. A .22 can kill you but the bullets from the assault style weapons are so much more destructive of human flesh and bone.


Only partly, the 5.56mm in the military version is unstable and tumbles when it hits anything, it is the combination of the tumbling and the speed that causes such devastating wounds and this is partly a result of the barrel design. If it didn't tumble it would just leave nice neat round holes that are easily patched up, easily only in the context of battlefield wounds.
But the round itself is now easily stopped and/or the impact is mollified by recent developments in LW body armour
"Assault" rifles are defined by the role they play, not by the ammunition they use, originally they were designed to replace both rifles and sub-machine guns/machine pistols. Short and maneuverable with a high rate of fire.
Our old SLR in 7.62 * 51 was an assault rifle as was the Russian AK47 in 7.62 * 39 so it's wrong to associate a weapons role with a calibre
I had to give up my self loading rifles and shotguns when Little Johnny railroaded the legislation through and I did so because, while I thought the law was wrong I was also a law abiding citizen. Thousands did not and in hindsight perhaps they were right and the government was over reacting but note I did not own an assault rifle, just sporting arms. There are semi automatic'/ self loading rifles I would like to buy but an Armalite or any of its clones isn't one of them, they have no place in a non-military situation
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:18 pm

Wayno I think you are confusing cavitation with hydrostatic shock. An expanding round will cause cavitation, I remember the testing we used to do at Winchester with the hollow point bullets and having the difference explained to me.
So much depends on remaining energy which is a ballistic function of all the cartridges factors as well as the twist in the barrel.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:28 pm

Yep I just read the articles, they are all mistaking cavitation for hydrostatic shock, similar injury effect but a different mechanism.
I do agree with the doctor who wants the sale of them banned tho
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Giddy_up » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:30 pm

wayno wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:Not sure I agree with you technically there Lophophaps
The Armalite and all its clones use a 5.56mm cartridge, that a .22 and while it does go quite a long way people forget that even a bog standard 22 Long Rifle can be lethal at a kilometre.
The Armalite ammo is basically a long range rabbit cartridge, it's just that as a species we are pretty easy to kill being so soft skinned.



that is completely incorrect, i cant find the article but i read one by a radiologist who has seen a lot of gun wounds
, assault riffles can be much higher vlocity and can have a more aerodynamic round, the physics when the high velocity ammo gets into flesh is far more destructive, it causes cavitation behind it destroying flesh, inner organs can literally explode when hit by high velocity ammo... some people cant be saved once hit, its just a mater of time because of the injury caused, the round is more likeyh to pass through teh body and the exit wound can be one of the worst aspects, ripping out large amounts of flesh, the entry wound might be small when you look at a deer carcass but whats happened inside is a lot different, thats why you cant hunt deer with a 22 and you can with .223

edit
i've found the article mentioned above and here it is....

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ns/553937/

more details about the energy involved here

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/p ... ncna848346


wayno a .223 and .22 are the same bullet, different case but same projectile in essence.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:35 pm

rabbit ammunition of a 22 has around half the velocity of the ammo used in military .223 weapons if you read the articles you'll see the extra energy of the .223 round causes a lot more damage
rabbit amo is lead and distorts on impact and doesnt penetrate like the .23 full metal jacket ammo. it doesnt always tumble, not when it hits soft flesh, from what i recall it tumples on hitting harder objects
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Giddy_up » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:51 pm

wayno wrote:rabbit ammunition of a 22 has around half the velocity of the ammo used in military .223 weapons if you read the articles you'll see the extra energy of the .223 round causes a lot more damage
rabbit amo is lead and distorts on impact and doesnt penetrate like the .23 full metal jacket ammo. it doesnt always tumble, not when it hits soft flesh, from what i recall it tumples on hitting harder objects


See my previous posts
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:01 pm

rabbit ammunition has around half the velocity of .223 ammo, theres no comparison.... where do you show that .22 ammunition is comparable?
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Giddy_up » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:08 pm

wayno wrote:rabbit ammunition has around half the velocity of .223 ammo, theres no comparison.... where do you show that .22 ammunition is comparable?


Bullets come in calibres ie 20, 30, 40, and so on. This is a reference to the bullet diameter. So .22 .220 .222 .223 all have the same diameter projectile, thats to say they all have the same hole in the barrel. The cases are hugely different and how much powder they hold and energy delivered is very different but the projectiles are largely the same.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Giddy_up » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:18 pm

Giddy_up wrote:
wayno wrote:rabbit ammunition has around half the velocity of .223 ammo, theres no comparison.... where do you show that .22 ammunition is comparable?


Bullets come in calibres ie 20, 30, 40, and so on. This is a reference to the bullet diameter. So .22 .220 .222 .223 all have the same diameter projectile, thats to say they all have the same hole in the barrel. The cases are hugely different and how much powder they hold and energy delivered is very different but the projectiles are largely the same.


All these are .22 caliber bulletsImage
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:24 pm

Giddy_up wrote:
wayno wrote:rabbit ammunition of a 22 has around half the velocity of the ammo used in military .223 weapons if you read the articles you'll see the extra energy of the .223 round causes a lot more damage
rabbit amo is lead and distorts on impact and doesnt penetrate like the .23 full metal jacket ammo. it doesnt always tumble, not when it hits soft flesh, from what i recall it tumples on hitting harder objects


See my previous posts



i know the difference in calibres, I've used a variety of ammo, and i've seen the difference in damage between them.
the energy delivered by the various rounds can vary massively because of the velocity the bullet is traveling at, it has more energy as explained in my links,
thats one of the main reasons of the reason high velocity weapons are far more likely to kill than lower velocity ammo.
thats why rabbit ammo is no good for large animals and high velocity weapons are...
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