Tent site selection in snow country

[wildwanderer]

The news about the bushwalker in Tassie who was tent bound with snow up to the roof for 7+ days got me thinking about tent site selection. The snow got so high he needed to cut a hole in the roof to leave the tent. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-17/ ... e/11317770

Also at some point he started getting water in the tent, whether this was from the hole he cut or seeping in from the bottom/sides it doesn’t say.
I’ve done a bit of snow shoeing/multi day trips in snow, but I’ve never been in a tent with blizzard conditions forecast or occurring.

So inspired by Emma’s equipment topic.. to those who have experience in such conditions what advice can you give on tent site selection? Is it critical to avoid being buried when high volumes of snow are falling? Or does having a good snow shovel matter more? (and a appropriate tent!)

From my own limited knowledge and a bit of research these are my thoughts so far are.

Tent.

• Ideally 4 season. Must have at least moderate snow loading capability.
• Snow tent pegs/deadman anchors with sticks or stuff sacks.
• Solid inner to prevent fine snow being blown inside. Also much warmer!
• Double two way zips on inner and fly. So you can open the fly from the top part of the door in severe snow build-up. (and thus avoid cutting a hole in your roof!). (my current 3+ season tent doesn’t have this , though my old v heavy 4 season does)

Tent site selection

• Don’t pick sites under snow laden branches. They could snap with the extra weight.
• Flatten a tent site with your boots or snowshoes to form a base for the tent. Have a 1/2 metre or more of extra flattened space around the tent.
• In strong wind use your snow shovel to create a wall on the windward side. Aprox 80cm from the fly. tent high if possible. Concave shape avoids wind wrap around.
• Door on the leeward side(so snow doesn’t blow inside)
• Camp near running water if possible. So you don’t have to melt snow.
• Always plot your tent site and any equipment stash on your GPS. Don’t leave your tent without the GPS!
• In mountainous areas be wary of the avalanche risk. Camp below a spur. My theory being avalanches are less likely to run along a spur.
• Dont pick the lowest spot.. cold air sinks also more snow accumulates in dells/folds.

Questions..
Select a spot that is most exposed to the sun? Less snow? Though Ive read that snow can melt in the day and then refreeze overnight, causing a tent to become ‘glued’ to the snow/ice.

Equipment.

Emmas thread has a good discussion viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30056
but I would emphasise

• Extra food/fuel. Winter stove! Cartridge stove don’t work well below freezing
• Something to shovel snow. (im planning to use the seat of my camp chair in emergency but a dedicated shovel is much better). Set an alarm as needed to get up at night to shovel snow. Dont wait until your buried in the morning.
• Water proof, insulated gloves or mitts.
• larger than normal powerbank.
• PLB/Inreach and a GPS
• R5 mattress +winter sleeping bag.
• Full waterproof shell: pants and hooded jacket
• waterproof boots.
• not a exhaustive list see Emmas thread for full lists.

[Wollemi]

- Your waterproof boots have two massive holes in them at time of purchase. Gaiters will assist.

- What is a winter stove? I have used a metho trangia on all winter trips, camping above the Australian treeline; it just uses 3 or 4 matches to pre-warm the metho so it will ignite. Be aware; it is surprising how fast the metho burns up in windy conditions.

- I don't have an 'R5 mattress', but instead just a 3/4 length thermarest and closed-cell mat underneath.

- In high wind, you may have to carefully lie on the tent, star-shaped, while your companion stakes it out. Same for dismantling.

- In high wind conditions, communications take a bit of shoulder thumping, them peeling back jacket hoods to speak into your ear, and near-shouting slowly, concisely, what next needed to be done.

- Not so many years ago (but seemingly not so much now, due more geodesic tents?, education?, less snow?), people used to talk about taking turns to get up, get dressed and get outside with the shovel to dig the tent out... a few times overnight. You and your companion will both wake up exhausted in the morning. This has happened to me - it is all part of the adventure.
A ski, snowshoe, or cooking pot may suffice but you must leave your gloves on, even if they get wet; I have acquired a cold-metal injury/2nd-degree frostbite by digging out with an aluminium pot lid, and bare hands; my two pairs of gloves were under the crushing mass of the distorted tent edge (inside the tent).

https://awls.org/wilderness-medicine-ca ... frostbite/

[Petew]

Sometimes site selection is made for you if the weather is real bad.

Obviously a good strong four season tent is a must. For me the key thing when camping in a snow storm/blizzard/massive dump is to attempt to keep the snow off the tent (if safe to do so) as mentioned above.

I have had a few nights in really foul weather where I would wake every couple of hours to bash the inside of the tent walks or even get out and shovel(carefully) snow away from the tent.
Always take a snow shovel if expressly going snow camping and keep it handy. Don't leave it in your tent if you are going to be away from your tent, leave it outside. I had one miserable occasion where our tent god completely covered with the shovel inside and we had to dig it out by hand. Not fun.

Being buired in a tent is a good way to suffocate in your sleep.

[Moondog55]

Spare gloves are IMO a must
Dishwashing gloves as big as needed can be used in an emergency as waterproof shells. Cheap but not robust, the black Outdoor glove is stronger but seems to get rotten very fast in cold wet weather but does come in XL size. Bread bags can be used as emergency over mittens as well as VB [Vapour Barrier] socks
Spare pole sections as well as repair tubes if available; even better is a full spare tent pole and see if your preferred tent can be double poled and buy the spare pole. If you snow shovel is like mine and silver aluminium alloy paint it a bright easy to see colour, insulate the shaft with several wraps of PVC tape. Consider sleeping in a full set of synthetic clothing so if you have to get the tent swept off in a hurry you do not waste time getting dressed, you carry it for around camp wear why not use it as part of your sleep system. Keep your storm suit easy to get in a hurry even if you do choose to sleep in clothing

[Biggles]

[quote="wildwanderer"][list]
[*]Extra food/fuel. Winter stove! Cartridge stove don’t work well below freezing


Come again??
I have had a decent brew made using a tiny FURNO top and butane/propane mix fuel. The location was Mount Clear campsite#1, and the morning temperature was minus-5.

[Petew]

Depends on whether the cartridge is new or not. The propane burns off first and deals better with the cold if I recall correctly....

https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.co ... y.html?m=1

[Moondog55]

I think it is true when the cartridge stove is almost empty, or when they have got really cold due to the cooling effects of gas evaporating; that's when technique comes into play by pre-warming the canister etc, using enough windshield to warm the can/ Moulder strip etc: but it is certainly true of straight butane canisters in really cold weather

[crollsurf]

I've seen people camped on the top of Curruthers on the Main Range in the Snowy Mountains! If you're that type, you will definately need a 4 season tent. I wouldn't count on a good nights sleep either if the wind is up.

I also wouldn't recommend camping too far from civilization, unless you know the area outside of the snow season, or someone in the group has winter experience in that specific area. You can't see cornices in a whiteout and knowing where the boiler-plate ice is, is kind of important as well.

As a ski tourer, I'm always going to camp somewhere protected from the prevailing winds. Winddrift can be an issue but getting up during the night and pushing snow is part and parcel of camping in the snow. You want a good solid tent but I've never bothered with a 4 season tent. I prefer to camp about half way down a run, close to water. A location like that is handy during the day when skiing for breaks. A brisk walk up the hill in the morning is a good thing, warms you up and you're able to observe the conditions and pick out a line. Nothing worse than putting in all that effort only to kook it on the way down.

If walking, particualy in flatter areas, don't camp on the plain/in the valley, they are the cold sinks at night. Other than that, just use common sense. Snowgums offer good protection but maybe don't camp directly under one. The shape and type of the snow will give you a good idea of how much protection you will be afforded.

[wildwanderer]

[list]
[*]Extra food/fuel. Winter stove! Cartridge stove don’t work well below freezing


Come again??
I have had a decent brew made using a tiny FURNO top and butane/propane mix fuel. The location was Mount Clear campsite#1, and the morning temperature was minus-5.

As others said above, when temperatures are below zero, your propane/butane mix canister stove will be burning the propane but not the butane. Which is fine when you have a full canister but once you burn through the propane your left with butane that you cant use (unless you can warm up the canister and keep it above 0C, actually above 5C is optimal)
End result is less useable fuel or needing to carry more/larger canister.

Hikin Jim explains it way better than me https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.co ... opane.html

Also if the canister stove gets below -7C it may really start to struggle...
https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.co ... stove.html

[Orion]

As others said above, when temperatures are below zero, your propane/butane mix canister stove will be burning the propane but not the butane. Which is fine when you have a full canister but once you burn through the propane your left with butane that you cant use (unless you can warm up the canister and keep it above 0C, actually above 5C is optimal)
End result is less useable fuel or needing to carry more/larger canister.

That isn't true and it's not what the guy in the blog you linked says either. The butane always burns along with the propane, at any temperature. In fact you're always burning more butane than propane.

It is true that the ratio of propane to butane drops as you burn through a canister but the temperature has very little effect on how fast it happens. Using a larger canister won't help. What will help is technique. And if you don't want to learn or employ tecqnique then use a different stove.

[wildwanderer]

As others said above, when temperatures are below zero, your propane/butane mix canister stove will be burning the propane but not the butane. Which is fine when you have a full canister but once you burn through the propane your left with butane that you cant use (unless you can warm up the canister and keep it above 0C, actually above 5C is optimal)
End result is less useable fuel or needing to carry more/larger canister.

That isn't true and it's not what the guy in the blog you linked says either. The butane always burns along with the propane, at any temperature. In fact you're always burning more butane than propane.

It is true that the ratio of propane to butane drops as you burn through a canister but the temperature has very little effect on how fast it happens. Using a larger canister won't help. What will help is technique. And if you don't want to learn or employ tecqnique then use a different stove.

This is what the blog says.. I dont think im interpreting it wrong but im not a stove expert either.

the propane will burn off at a faster rate than the n-butane, leaving you with nothing but n-butane toward the end of your canister. Butane is a poor performer in cold weather

From..
https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.co ... -cold.html

From my reading he is saying that temperature has a great effect on stove performance. You mention good technique.. but isnt the technique to warm the canister stove? or invert it but thats not easily possible with many canister stoves. I dont think anyone mentioned a larger canister being beneficial.

[Avatar]

Pitch in a sheltered site if you like sleeping. Ice (worse) and snow buildup needs to be cleared as fly collapse reduces internal volume and increases contact with wet walls and can pop off clips on poles. For the same reason you need to clear all around the bottom of fly to keep ventilation happening. Dig a trench in the snow around to catch the snow falling off and give extra time before needing to shovel. Give the fly a shake every so often and be prepared to get up at 5am and clear fly and dig out.

[Orion]

This is what the blog says.. I dont think im interpreting it wrong but im not a stove expert either.

the propane will burn off at a faster rate than the n-butane, leaving you with nothing but n-butane toward the end of your canister. Butane is a poor performer in cold weather

From..
https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.co ... -cold.html

From my reading he is saying that temperature has a great effect on stove performance.

It does say that. And of course it's true. But he never says that in sub-zero conditions the propane will burn but not the butane -- like you did above. That's what I was pointing out. Temperature has only a very minor effect on the propane burning disproportionately faster than the butane.

You mention good technique.. but isnt the technique to warm the canister stove? or invert it but thats not easily possible with many canister stoves.

There are a variety of techniques that can be used to maintain canister pressure in a cold environment. But, yes, the basic notion is to supply heat to the canister. When it gets cold enough, especially at lower elevations, at some point a non-inverted canister stove isn't worth the trouble. But does it get that cold where you're thinking of traveling? I personally wouldn't consider switching to a liquid fuel stove until morning temperatures were consistently at or below -15°C.


This doesn't have anything to do with tent site selection though. If it's snowing a bunch you'll probably need to attend to the build-up of snow on and around your tent, sometimes in the middle of the night. A shovel is the tool of choice for that. Otherwise the usual things come to mind, like finding (or constructing) shelter from the wind.

[rcaffin]

re Tents: it is true that a summer tent may get buried by a snow fall. The solution to that is to use a proper 4-season tent - but then you need to be able to tell the difference between mfr spin and reality. A proper tunnel tent will always work. Others - not so well. Yeah, some $$ needed.

Pitching the tent in a storm: dead easy with a tunnel tent if you know how. I can get our 2-man tunnel tent up and down in 100 kph wind by myself, although my wife does help me. (Been there, done that, on Mt Anton once.)

Ventilation: NOT at the bottom of the fly! If there is a gap there you will get lots and lots of spin drift coming inside and covering everything. A high vent with a masking baffle works much better, and you can close it down to a small aperture when the wind howls. Such a vent is usually found at the top of the door on a winter tent - which can be opened downwards for getting out as well. Mind you, in a real storm you may need just a vent at the lee end: wind buffeting will pump a fair amount of air through anyhow.

'a wall on the windward side': HA! in a real storm the wall will get eroded away in an hour or two. The wind has to pick up speed to go around the wall, and that chews away anything short of rocks. A sod cloth is of more use.

Camping at the bottom of a frost hollow - um, cold! We got down to -17 C one night that way, because we wanted to be 'near water'. Bad idea, but it was long ago. To my mind, the best place to camp in the snow is in the lee of a good copse of snow gums: close enough to be sheltered by them, but not right under one. Mind you, I doubt I have seen many broken branches on snow gums due to snow loading: they manage to survive. So, close.

Canisters and stoves - my favourite subject, as many of you know. What has been missed in many of the postings is the difference between a summer upright canister stove and a proper winter remote inverted canister stove. You can use an upright in the snow, but it takes a lot of knowledge and skill. Why bother? A remote inverted canister stove will work just fine down to about -20 C canister temperature, and to an even lower ambient if you can keep the canister above -15 C. This is not difficult if you carry the canister in your pack near your back, next to your water bottles, or inside your bag/quilt overnight. (The water bottles don't freeze in your pack, do they?) With an inverted canister stove the fuel stays close to the original mix all the way through.

Snow shovel: for sure you need something. I use some hard sheet Al (7075?) about 1 mm thick, with a slight crease in it. Much lighter than a shovel, and just as effective. But you MUST wear two layers of gloves for this: insulating and waterproof (GTX is good here). Actually, we carry two of them in winter, for the two of us. We can make a dead flat tent site in the evening this way - but it will have two slightly melted body shapes in the morning. That is normal: your body heat does leak through any mat, no matter how high the R-value.

Cheers

[Orion]

You can use an upright in the snow, but it takes a lot of knowledge and skill. Why bother?

It's not a bother at all when temperatures are no lower than about -10°C. It's easier than using a liquid fuel stove, the stove is lighter, and it's more fuel efficient.

Snow shovel: for sure you need something. I use some hard sheet Al (7075?) about 1 mm thick, with a slight crease in it. Much lighter than a shovel, and just as effective.

What does it weigh? A 30x30x0.1cm Al sheet would be about 250g if I'm doing my math correctly. My standard shovel with removable handle weighs 565g. There are others available at a similar weight. That's twice the weight of a 30cm square Al sheet but it's an actual metal shovel. There used to be a plastic handleless "shovel" called the SnowClaw. It had grips on it which made it easier to hold but it was otherwise probably similar to a thin aluminium sheet. I knew someone who had one and said it was functional, if a bit backbreaking, in soft snow. But it was worthless in very firm snow.

To some extent it depends on one's expectations. For a once in a decade Tassie blizzard I'd just dig with my gloved hands.

[Petew]

Inverted cannister stoves with a preheat tube are kinda the best of both worlds.

My favourite four season tent, now sadly worn out, was my 1990 Macpac Olympus.

Not UL but that thing could take a beating. Three pole tunnel tent, two vestibules/doors. Pole sleeves (could use two sets of poles if needed). Multi pitch though I always used to leave it all in one bit. Yes, easy to pitch by yourself in howling weather. Each door had a vent up high, could be zipped up or down either side inner could be pulled back to centre to create big vestibule for cooking. Great tent and made in NZ.

[Biggles]

My favourite four season tent, now sadly worn out, was my 1990 Macpac Olympus.

Damn excellent tent. I bought the most recent incarnation of its little brother, the Minaret, in February this year. It has been used for camping trips to Blanket Bay in the Great Otway National Park, and more recently, Devil's Marbles, Ormiston Gorge and Trephina Gorge in the NT (overnight temps around 4 to 6 deg.). The previous tent was a MONT Moondance 1 from 2009 (maiden outing: in a wild electrical storm at Mount Feathertop, Cup Day weekend 2009!): fine for summer, but that's all! I have owned the Macpac Olympus, Microlight and Minaret, starting from around 1988. The Olympus in 1988 was put to use in a lousy bout of weather atop Briggs Bluff/Mount Difficult. We squeezed in four cold, tired, aching and wet souls for the night! Of course were were tired and aching: we lost the track (and our leader...) and ascended Briggs Bluff by scrambling up the cliffs!

There are a couple of gas stove mechanisms that have a pre-heat tube; one is by MSR I think.

[Petew]

I have a kovea? spider as a remote cannister stove, great stove.

Those old Macpac snow tents were indeed excellent, so tough!

[wildwanderer]

I still have my 1990 (or abouts) NZ made Macpac Minaret.

Awesome tent though doesnt get use these days as its tight for two people and heavy for one. I find I always choose my lighter 3+ season tents than the 2.7kg beast. Though Im sure its the tent I would prefer to be in during a big snow storm.

[rcaffin]

My sheet Al shovels weigh about 70 g each.

It's easier than using a liquid fuel stove,
Most anything IS!
Remote inverted canister stoves are MUCH easier to use than trad liquid fuel stoves, and much lighter too.

Macpac Olympus Arguably still the most reliable winter tent on the market, and I have 'lived' in one for many years.

Cheers
Roger

[markg]

Buy a good 4 season tent that has the poles crossing each other at regular intervals. Still have to get up and push snow off the roof of the tent no matter how strong it is in extreme cases. Inverted cannister stove. Nice warm/waterproof gloves, mid weight base layer, and a good quality mat and s/bags are godsends. A lot of folks here don't have kind words for the Exped downmats, but mine have performed flawlessly and are ever so warm. Worth the weight for mine. I love them. Don't be lazy, build snow walls and pitch where you like.