Horses and heritage

Bushwalking topics that are not location specific.
Forum rules
The place for bushwalking topics that are not location specific.

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby sambar358 » Tue 09 Apr, 2019 8:51 am

Xplora wrote: I am not sure how anyone could argue the count should be not be done under NPWS authority. It is the land manager.


Agree....get someone with a vested interest in the feral horses to do this and you can guarantee that the count results will be a bit dodgy. Parks should get a local staffer a seat in one of the choppers doing the deer cull mid-May and I'm sure those choppers will be flying most of the feral horse range on the BHP and they'd see most of them. Doing a ground count won't work as you can't cover enough country to ensure that you're not double-counting as you'll miss plenty that are in the bush and not out on the open plains in clear view.

Then of course there are the horses outside the BHP too and there are plenty of them lower down that will likely re-populate the BHP once the local neddies are reduced in number. All this should be seen as an on-going task and not just something to get done and then the issue is solved, once the numbers are reduced efforts should still be made to keep the pressure on otherwise horse numbers will build again and things will be much the same in 10 years time. Cheers

s358
sambar358
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat 25 Oct, 2008 10:05 am

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby DavidB » Tue 09 Apr, 2019 9:19 am

NSW developed a pretty good horse plan for KNP back in 2016. This is all just an excuse to delay any effective action.

All very sad really.
DavidB
Nothofagus gunnii
Nothofagus gunnii
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:06 am
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Tue 09 Apr, 2019 1:54 pm

sambar358 wrote:
Xplora wrote: I am not sure how anyone could argue the count should be not be done under NPWS authority. It is the land manager.


Agree....get someone with a vested interest in the feral horses to do this and you can guarantee that the count results will be a bit dodgy. Parks should get a local staffer a seat in one of the choppers doing the deer cull mid-May and I'm sure those choppers will be flying most of the feral horse range on the BHP and they'd see most of them. Doing a ground count won't work as you can't cover enough country to ensure that you're not double-counting as you'll miss plenty that are in the bush and not out on the open plains in clear view.

Then of course there are the horses outside the BHP too and there are plenty of them lower down that will likely re-populate the BHP once the local neddies are reduced in number. All this should be seen as an on-going task and not just something to get done and then the issue is solved, once the numbers are reduced efforts should still be made to keep the pressure on otherwise horse numbers will build again and things will be much the same in 10 years time. Cheers

s358

The horses management plan for BHP extends to Dinner Plain and down to the McCoys boundary or Bundara private land. Also PV used FLIR imaging to count the Barmah forest horses. The fly overs have to be in an ordered grid and the results were pretty good. This time of year is ideal for FLIR was the cooling ground creates a nice contrast. A count of BHP was done 12 months ago but not sure if FLIR was used. I saw the helicopter and it was flying a grid. You can count dead horses easier than live ones though.

Fishing is still good up here and lots of honkers around. One in the fridge now. You should get up but maybe next week. Turning cold just now and rain today.
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby RFG » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 11:03 pm

Without trying to be preachy, can I encourage anyone who has concerns about allowing a similar situation to what has played out with the NSW KNP horse situation spreading to Victoria and in turn flowing onto conservation reserves across the country, now is the time to make a formal submission to the Barmah plan to indicate your support, even if you don’t live in Victoria or visit Barmah. You can bet that the brumby loving fraternity and anti parks activists from right across the country and internationally are mobilising to bring Parks Vic unstuck on this one. If Parks Vic and it’s political masters go weak at the knees on the Barmah plan through lack of general community support, then you can kiss good bye to any rational approach to feral horse control in the Vic Alps, any chance of redeeming the ridiculous situation of controlling and managing ferals in NSW or SE Australia for that matter. No use just voicing your opinions on social media. Need to make your views known via the formal channels. Only takes 10 minutes online.
RFG
Nothofagus gunnii
Nothofagus gunnii
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri 07 Feb, 2014 9:04 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Sat 20 Apr, 2019 6:47 am

Prof Don Driscoll sent me some links for a bit of light reading on the subject. Knock yourself out if that is your sort of thing. To access the links for each paper, go here and each one is hyperlinked. This site does not support that and I don't want to go to each page again to copy the url. https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/f-horses.82548/page-6

Feral horses in the Australian Alps: an introduction to the special issue
Professor Don Driscoll; Dr Benjamin Scheele; Dr Tein McDonald


Science as an antidote to horse trading in the Australian Alps

Prof Richard James (Dick) Williams

Science and evolving community knowledge and opinion on feral horses in Kosciuszko National Park
Deirdre Slattery

How can the social sciences work with ecology in informing feral horse policy and management in south‐eastern Australia?
Alexandra R. Knight

Rehabilitation and revegetation of the Kosciuszko summit area, following the removal of grazing – An historic review
Roger Good Stuart Johnston

An assessment of feral horse impacts on treeless drainage lines in the Australian Alps
Geoff Robertson John Wright Daniel Brown Kally Yuen David Tongway

The occurrence of the Broad‐toothed Rat Mastacomys fuscus in relation to feral Horse impacts
Martin Schulz Mellesa Schroder Ken Green

Impacts of feral horses and deer on an endangered woodland of Kosciuszko National Park
Jessica Ward‐Jones Ian Pulsford Richard Thackway Dipak Bishwokarma David Freudenberger

Feral horse impacts on threatened plants and animals in sub‐alpine and montane environments in Victoria, Australia
Rebecca C. Cherubin Susanna E. Venn Don A. Driscoll Tim S. Doherty Euan G. Ritchie

Modelling horse management in the Australian Alps
Nicholas J. Beeton Christopher N. Johnson

Impacts of feral horses in the Australian Alps and evidence‐based solutions
Don A. Driscoll Graeme L. Worboys Hugh Allan Sam C. Banks Nicholas J. Beeton Rebecca C. Cherubin Tim S. Doherty C. Max Finlayson Ken Green Renée Hartley Geoffrey Hope Chris N. Johnson Mark Lintermans Brendan Mackey David J. Paull Jamie Pittock Luciana L. Porfirio Euan G. Ritchie Chloe F. Sato Ben C. Scheele Deirdre A. Slattery Susanna Venn David Watson Maggie Watson Richard M. Williams

Feral horse impacts: The Kosciuszko Science Conference
Casey Gibson

The Kosciuszko Science Accord


Notice of and reasons for the Final Determination
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby peregrinator » Sat 20 Apr, 2019 9:22 am

Thanks for that link, Xplora. RFG reminds us of the need to respond to the feral horse problem in Barmah NP, and I hope people do take action on that. You still have a few weeks before submissions close. The Barmah management plan is an excellent source of information. It provides detailed evidence based of course on scientific studies, which though specifically related to the Barmah marshlands, has broader relevance.

https://engage.vic.gov.au/barmah-strategic-action-plan
peregrinator
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Fri 15 Apr, 2011 2:50 pm
Region: Victoria

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Mon 29 Apr, 2019 10:27 am

And a bit more on Koscie brumby numbers here
https://invasives.org.au/media-releases ... horse-foi/,
The graph records sightings, its not a census, but the trajectory is clear
John
johnrs
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 6:09 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby potato » Mon 29 Apr, 2019 12:20 pm

Thanks for that. The attachment which contains a map of the flight path is interesting. The numbers observed must be considered as a minimum horse population.
potato
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 1:06 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Thu 02 May, 2019 8:22 am

Its good to see that the issue is still being brought up - https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... /?cs=14231

Most of the horses on the northern frost plains look like the one in article. Sick, underfed and tired. I imagine there will be more carcasses than normal after the snow melts later this year...
User avatar
Zapruda
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu 07 Apr, 2016 10:46 am
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Thu 23 May, 2019 9:45 am

Here is a 30min doco on the issue by Harrison Warne called UNDERFROG
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=296186057985359
User avatar
crollsurf
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue 07 Mar, 2017 10:07 am
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Fri 12 Jul, 2019 12:43 pm

And here is a meeting next week in Sydney
https://www.facebook.com/events/868263156841227/
johnrs
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 6:09 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Wed 07 Aug, 2019 1:51 pm

And now the Brumbies head back to parliament

Save Kosci petition, protest and debate in Sydney
Thursday 22 August, 1:20 – 5:00pm | Parliament of New South Wales, 6 Macquarie Street Sydney

More than 12,000 people signed a petition calling to repeal the Kosciuszko Wild Horse Heritage Act and the debate is now going to happen!
There will be multiple events throughout the day including the rally and live debate. Some of the events have limited seats so please make sure to RSVP for each event you would like to attend.
Finds out more and RSVP

More here
https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/save-ko ... 6141116861
John
johnrs
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 6:09 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby LachlanB » Fri 09 Aug, 2019 3:42 pm

johnrs wrote:And now the Brumbies head back to parliament

Save Kosci petition, protest and debate in Sydney
Thursday 22 August, 1:20 – 5:00pm | Parliament of New South Wales, 6 Macquarie Street Sydney

More than 12,000 people signed a petition calling to repeal the Kosciuszko Wild Horse Heritage Act and the debate is now going to happen!
There will be multiple events throughout the day including the rally and live debate. Some of the events have limited seats so please make sure to RSVP for each event you would like to attend.
Finds out more and RSVP

More here
https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/save-ko ... 6141116861
John


It's a park, not a paddock!
LachlanB
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon 21 Apr, 2014 5:07 pm
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Fri 09 Aug, 2019 10:39 pm

I'll be there on the 22nd. Thousands of starving horses, the destruction of the environment and for what?

So one of Barilaro's ex National Party mates can run horse tours and let his customers see a mangy Brumby!

Hard to believe

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
User avatar
crollsurf
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue 07 Mar, 2017 10:07 am
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Thu 29 Aug, 2019 1:50 pm

And a bit more from the Snowy Mtns feral brumbies NSW parliamentary debate (from the NPA bulletin)

Parliament voted against accepting the petition

Reclaim Kosci Update
"Repealing the Act is straightforward. We do need to restore a sensible plan. There are too many horses, the park is being destroyed and the damage being done can no longer be ignored. We will work with the Minister; the Minister will work with the people. Let us get this done, let us repeal this Act. I commend this petition to the House." That is part of Member for Blue Mountains, Trish Doyle's speech from last Thursday's debate on the Kosciuszko Wild Horse Heritage Act. The debate took place thanks to more than 12,000 people who signed a petition calling for the Act to be repealed.

NSW Environment Minister Matt Kean also committed to the establishment of a scientific advisory committee to audit the Act based on scientific evidence.
Read the full debate here from Hansard

https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Hansa ... 322-107062
johnrs
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 6:09 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Fri 30 Aug, 2019 7:29 am

To a large extent, politicians are immune from scrutiny. However, public servants are required to follow rules. They must follow the directions of the minister and government, and must also comply with good ways of managing resources. Feral horses create problems for the quality, quantity and timing of water supplies, with economic impacts distant at time and space. Remedial works will cost much more than any gain from horse tours or the like. These aspects may be something that NPA and others could pursue with the most senior public servants dealing with KNP and NSW conservation matters.

The science is there - feral horses are bad. Like climate change, the reality will have to be very obvious before the doubters understand. At least KNP is higher than the expected sea level when the Greenland ice sheet melts.
User avatar
Lophophaps
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 2692
Joined: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 9:45 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Tue 10 Sep, 2019 11:49 am

Some movement - https://www.bombalatimes.com.au/story/6 ... anagement/

Rehoming beginning soon. Although numbers aren't mentioned. Where will they be moved to?

This was interesting... Lets hope Mr Johnson can see past his passion for horses and see the big picture.

"Mr Johnson is the man for the job - a nominated representative of the Snowy Horse Riders Association and he was integral in forming the National Heritage Listing over the Australian Alps.
User avatar
Zapruda
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu 07 Apr, 2016 10:46 am
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Tue 10 Sep, 2019 12:38 pm

User avatar
crollsurf
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue 07 Mar, 2017 10:07 am
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Wed 11 Sep, 2019 7:16 am

I suspect a robotics engineer was the only person with any 'scientific' knowledge who would join the committee. Most of the others could see it for what it really is and have given the government the finger. Re-homing is a very slow process and with the numbers there you would not be able to deal with the natural increase from birth each year. There are also not enough people willing to take the ferals. Nobody wants the older animals so what happens to those animals which do not find homes? If it is caught in a trap then it should be removed, dead or alive but I suspect the mares will be released as too any older stallions. Once you catch a horse in a trap and release it, you will not catch it again. This happened with the stallion now in the Nelse area and he actually stops other horses going into the trap. So the mare has another foal which will not be trapped. How long before the next election? Will this government survive again?
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Wed 11 Sep, 2019 7:29 am

This was put together on another forum. Its some of the members of the panel
Jindabyne beef producer Ted Rowley

Snowy Mountains horse riders association's spokeswoman Leisa Caldwell

Rhonda Casey - Director of TKNIC (Toomaroombah Kunama Namadgi Indigenous Corp)

Colleen O'Brien from the Victorian Brumby Association

Leon Meyer ex-Australian Professional Rodeo Association’s Board



Hardly an even spread. Not a single member of a bushwalking group on the panel.


I guess we all know how this is going to turnout. All responsibility will now be put back on the panel and the "community".

Disgraceful.

@xplora - I saw a feral foal with a rope around its neck out near Tantangara this weekend. I have very clear video of it. Are you aware of people catching younger horses down your way?
User avatar
Zapruda
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu 07 Apr, 2016 10:46 am
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Thu 12 Sep, 2019 5:39 am

There are still people catching feral horses in Vic. You have to be part of the Vic Brumby Assoc I think to be allowed (legally). They are only interested in young animals because the older ones are beyond any training. My postie was telling me on Tuesday that she has a 3 year old feral which was caught for her daughter by 'one of her boyfriends' as a foal. Lots being caught on the Nunniong plains and Cobberas still but mostly in State forest. There is a market for them but they are not worth much. Still a bit of easy money for those with the skills. They are also easy to catch if you have a fit horse as ferals are not very fit and run out of puff quickly. Once tired you can walk up and throw a rope over them. From there they are dragged onto a stock crate. Mittagundi (outdoor ed camp up the road) has a BHP feral now and bought locally. Not sure of its age but no private person has taken any from BHP for a while that I know of.
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Thu 12 Sep, 2019 9:24 am

Thanks Xplora
John Barrilaro stated in parliament several weeks ago that most of the animals cannot be rehomed and are slaughtered outside the park.
The largest offtake in any year has just been 600 animals at an average cost of $1000 each.

Is there any independent scientific person on his so called "Expert Committee"?
John S
johnrs
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 6:09 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Fri 13 Sep, 2019 4:38 am

johnrs wrote:Is there any independent scientific person on his so called "Expert Committee"?
John S


Simple answer is no. The only person with any type of science background is the robotics engineer professor (deputy chair). Not sure how physics will help. I think Barrilaro also said at some point that the horse which cannot be re-homed would be moved to a less sensitive part of the park. I can't really see a committee such as this having any real power. It is really only an advisory board but I also cannot see it advising the removal of horses for slaughter.
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby rcaffin » Fri 13 Sep, 2019 7:43 pm

I can't really see a committee such as this having any real power.
This is pure politics. Committees are there to 'kick the ball into the long grass'. They are not meant to DO anything, just to shut the public up.

Cheers
Roger
User avatar
rcaffin
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu 17 Jul, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 14 Sep, 2019 2:38 pm

rcaffin wrote:I can't really see a committee such as this having any real power.
This is pure politics. Committees are there to 'kick the ball into the long grass'. They are not meant to DO anything, just to shut the public up.


Agree. Also, a committee or enquiry is often to give the perception of doing something, public consultation. This was the case with the Falls-Hotham alpine crossing enquiry.
User avatar
Lophophaps
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 2692
Joined: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 9:45 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Sun 15 Sep, 2019 6:29 am

Quite possible all the qualified people know about these types of committees and thought they had enough brick walls to bash their heads against already. Also possible we will see some changes in the committee as the members become aware they are only there for show. I pick the Aboriginal rep to go first. Some will think they can make a difference but everything has no doubt been decided already. I have always found a committee of one works the best. It will take a couple of meetings for the group to get over egos, personal agendas and being nice to each other then alliances will form and the odd one out will be ostracized. Is there an odd one out?
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Mon 23 Sep, 2019 10:49 am

I led a group out to Blue Waterholes from Long Plain gate on the weekend. There is now a horse trap at Blue Waterholes camp ground. Presumably it will only be there for a few weeks until the gates re open. It’s a start at least...
Attachments
E2C62DF3-05BE-41BB-B8AA-46B6D5D2F8F8.jpeg
User avatar
Zapruda
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu 07 Apr, 2016 10:46 am
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Mon 23 Sep, 2019 11:42 am

Hi Xplora
The scientific representatives on previous committees will not rejoin the process.
its been farcical and their advice has been treated with contempt by John Barrilarro
who has used the issue to develop his standing with his local national party constituents.
Mr Barrilaro's window fitting business in Queenbeyan is now insolvent and is being wound up.
So we have a failed businessman as deputy premier deciding park ,management policy!
John
johnrs
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 6:09 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby rcaffin » Mon 23 Sep, 2019 8:02 pm

Well, if you can't make a go of business, try politics...

Cheers
Roger
User avatar
rcaffin
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu 17 Jul, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby LachlanB » Tue 24 Sep, 2019 8:43 am

Zapruda wrote:I led a group out to Blue Waterholes from Long Plain gate on the weekend. There is now a horse trap at Blue Waterholes camp ground. Presumably it will only be there for a few weeks until the gates re open. It’s a start at least...


A few weeks I wish. I got an email from NPWS last night, as I was the designated contact for a permit activity (caving) at Blue Waterholes in November last year. The gist of it is that Blue Waterholes and Magpie Flat won't reopen on the coming long weekend (there go my caving plans for the weekend..), and an exclusion zone will be put in place around Blue Waterholes that covers Nichols Gorge, Clarks Gorge, part of Wilkinsons Gorge, and Frustration Valley. The Blue Waterholes Road will be closed at Cooleman Mountain Campground. This is supposedly necessary for 'NPWS to manage interactions between wild horses and the public within the campgrounds by reducing the number of wild horses in the area through trapping and removal'. Theoretically the area is meant to reopen at the end of November, but I'm not counting on it.. I distinctly remember listening to a conversation someone was having with a ranger on a caving trip at Easter, and the ranger said that NPWS just wanted to close the Blue Waterholes area completely because they simply couldn't manage the feral horses.

Considering that on their own website NPWS state that it is going to be non lethal trapping, and that only a small number of horses are likely to be removed, I think this is a total over reaction. Yes, the horses are terrible at Cooleman at the moment- of about 20 dying campfires at Easter, most at night had multiple horses clustering around them. Bushwalking was more like wading through mounds of horse poo. Yes, something needs to be done about them, but NPWS' response isn't going to help much I think, and now we're seeing some more of the awful outcomes of the NSW Deputy Premier's pathetic excuse for public policy.
LachlanB
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon 21 Apr, 2014 5:07 pm
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

PreviousNext

Return to Bushwalking Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests