ADVICE TO NICE GUYS

[Happy Pirate]

Nice chliches and except for the concesions on a male dominated forum "we leave doing what mankind has made its own distinguishable trait...disregard all other opinions and points of view"...
nuff said

[Lindsay]

Interesting thread.
It's funny. I'm sure we would ALL like to encourage more women to get out bush and particularly to brave the wilds alone.
And you'd have to be an idiot not to aknowledge that women hiking alone, generally, are fearful of and prone to much more harrassment and intimidation than solo men or groups.
And yet somehow, when a solo-hiking woman offers her genuine perspective (so rarely heard) her opinion has to be constantly argued against, contradicted, mansplained and finally hijacked by posts of ninja death-punches.
Thanks Guys,
kinda proves her point
Steve
(OK come at me;-))

HP, I don't think anyone was arguing against the OP or discounting the uncomfortable experience she had. In my case I was disagreeing with the premise that all male bushwalkers needed a reminder about correct behaviour. This has drawn the ire of some of the more PC minded members who seem to think that I am obliged to submit myself to being educated about correct behaviour simply for the Original Sin of being a male.

[Stroller]

All males are sinful. : P

[stepbystep]

All males are sinful. : P

*snort*

Sad but true ... this thread is just more evidence of how painfully, frustratingly slow evolution is ...

[Avatar]

"...for man is at the bottom of his soul only wicked, but woman is base." Nietzsche, "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Discuss.

[puredingo]

It's a funny thing...."there's just enough religion in the world to make man hate each other but not enough to make them love".....

[corvus]

Is it just me that thinks this post is deviating from BW to boredom??

[Stroller]

"...for man is at the bottom of his soul only wicked, but woman is base." Nietzsche, "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Discuss.

Sounds misogynistic. And Nietzche died young so you could say he was a man of limited experience. I never the book in question so I've no idea about the context of the speech.

Oh yes I nearly forgot to add, that its true I am bored but too tired right now to do anything else. And the tv is not working.

[puredingo]

You know Nietzche says out of chaos comes order....

[neilmny]

Is it just me that thinks this post is deviating from BW to boredom??

The days are getting longer, the sky is getting lighter, soon the cabin fever will be over.

[corvus]

Oh dear they are now waxing educated with quotations !!

[Suz]

"...for man is at the bottom of his soul only wicked, but woman is base." Nietzsche, "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Discuss.

Nietzsche is my favourite philosopher but he was certainly not a man without faults. I think I remember from reading Curtis Cate's biography of him that he said this particular book was written after he was rejected by the one woman who he ever truly wanted (Lou Salome). She chose his best friend instead and found Nietzsches' own advances rather appalling. Needless to say, thus spake zarathustra looks to have been penned in bitterness. He was not always so misogynistic.

It's been a few months since I last visited this website and this thread has carried on without me. Some of is offensive, much of it off-topic, some supportive (for which I'm truly grateful). For all the men who said they found my OP patronising - OMG, way to go in finding a way to make me at fault for discussing inappropriate male behaviour. A script well flipped. *clap clap* Having been sexually assaulted by men more than once, and followed by strangers down the street, I know what I have to fear from men is real and if all you have to put up with in return is a little perceived 'patronisation' well BOOHOO. For those of you on the #notallmen train, if you actually thought this thread didn't in any way apply to you the natural thing would've just been to ignore it. God, what I'm saying here is 'be mindful and don't make women unnecessarily afraid because they have genuine reason to fear you' and you respond with 'don't patronise me'.

[Peaksnik]

Congratulations Suz, you have nailed it, and them.

I would add that at the heart of their whinging is the inability to see things from someone else's perspective. I sometimes think of it as akin to what is commonly called adolescent self-centredness but then pull myself up in remembering that there are many teenage males who are free of this vice. I guess that some males have it when young and then are unable to grow out of it and, for some of those, it becomes a pathological trait resulting in great harm to others (usually women and children).

[jdeks]

After being reprimanded by our resident white knights for my previous comment, I thought maybe it is time I took a step back and tried to work on some of this empathy that our resident psychologists claim men don't have.

So I took this thread and forwarded it on a private mailing list I'm part of, for outdoorsy, adventure-travel type folks - to get some perspective from some men and women with different experiences.

The comments from the men were mixed and somewhat subdued....however the feedback from the women came thick and fast. Replies ranged from "LOL!!!" to "Do these girls seriously not realize why they feel such a struggle, trying to push an agenda that just shoots them in the foot???". The discussion is still going, and there is very little empathy for the plight of their fellow women suffering the travesty of men they think are looking at them funny.

Interestingly enough, there is no moderator on this mailing list, and the members are just shy of around a 50/50 gender split. So I find it very curious, to hear such a differing response from the righteous, politically correct indignation on this thread - which is filtered, no less, by a male moderator (what was that before about #notallmen?). Perhaps all these globe-trotting, motorcycling, mountain climbing women are just pawns of The Patriarchy? In which case, I'll be standing by for #notallwomen to start trending.


Now lets see how long before this post too is deemed to be the 'wrong' kind of empathy...

[slparker]

Zombie thread.

[GPSGuided]

It's a funny thing...."there's just enough religion in the world to make man hate each other but not enough to make them love".....

Is being gay a religion or a human nature?

[Lophophaps]

Jdeks, it's always good to get different perspectives. Slparker, the thread was started on 3 May, and with one gap of about five weeks has seen a lot of interesting posts. There's been about 26 posts in August, so the interest is still there.

[Rai]

This topic relates to a much broader social issue. There are regions of this world where staring is endemic. Here is a link to an article today in a South Asian newspaper about staring. One might think that this problem exists mainly in repressed societies, but that doesn't diminish the threat and dominance that a persistent gaze by a physically stronger person implies - regardless of whether it is directed at a female or a male. Here is the link http://www.dawn.com/news/1281017/the-14-second-stare

[GPSGuided]

Well, there goes the 'people watching' past time on Ventura Beach, CA amongst other watching hotspots around the world. But is 'people watching' the same as 'staring'?

[north-north-west]

... "Do these girls seriously not realize why they feel such a struggle, trying to push an agenda that just shoots them in the foot???". .

I really wish I understood exactly what was meant by that comment.
What is the agenda, who is trying to push it, and in what way is it shooting our/their own feet?

I also do not understand the disparaging and belittling comments about this issue. It's not purely about how someone looks at you - it's about what that looking may be a precursor to. What is the reasoning behind this - do people not understand or accept the frequency and severity of violence against women in our society? Do they somehow think it doesn't really matter? Are they trying to distance themselves from it as a safety measure? Is it a refusal to accept the possibility of one's behaviour and/or attitudes contributing to the problem and, therefore, denying the necessity to re-evaluate and possibly even change those behaviours and attitudes?

Could someone please enlighten me?

[fallsnfungi]

what if the staring man was trying to add a name to the face? or was wondering why everytime he looked up she was staring at him ? I can totally understand the bad feeling you would have gotten in the stomach, it must of been bad enough to cancel your travel plans

[stry]

what if the staring man was trying to add a name to the face? or was wondering why everytime he looked up she was staring at him ? I can totally understand the bad feeling you would have gotten in the stomach, it must of been bad enough to cancel your travel plans

I recommend that you read (or reread) the posts by Stroller and darrenM in this thread. Think about what each of those posters has written.

After that, take this on board

'be mindful and don't make women unnecessarily afraid because they have genuine reason to fear you'

And never underestimate the accuracy of women's intuition.

[GTL]

I often stare at people when they look like idiots, not gender based in any way

[Mark F]

Please don't flame me to death but a news story that just popped up - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-22/human-connection-movement-sees-dozens-gather-in-brisbane/7957368

[north-north-west]

Mutual and consensual. Entirely different situation.

[benoloughlin]

Can I just ask all the nice guys to NOT stare at women you see while hiking - especially if they are hiking alone.

I had this experience for the first time in the Snowys last week and it was freaky. Woke up at Bradley's and O'briens Hut and then were about 8-10 of us there. Breaking camp, every time I turned around there was this one guy staring at me. I'm not exactly a sight to behold and I don't know what the guy's deal was…but as an advice to all men in the wilderness, PLEASE DO NOT STARE. It doesn't matter if you mean no harm, I cannot tell what your intentions are. Never spoke to the guy but I had spoken to his mtn biking partner and found out we were actually due to camp at O'Keefes hut the same night (I bailed) and that made it even worse. The thought of re-encountering a potential weirdo in the bush who I knew could over power me if he wanted to was not fun.

I'm sure for women with more conventional appeal this happens more often. A stare is like a threat. Please don't do it.

I am sorry this has happened to you and other women.
I would never intentionally do anything that would make a woman feel uncomfortable.

[Lophophaps]

Mutual and consensual. Entirely different situation.

Quite so. The varying reactions are interesting.

[corvus]

What constitutes a Stare please?

[stry]

What constitutes a Stare please?

Many of the things that trigger a woman's highly evolved instincts and threat assessment skills cannot be clinically and logically explained - particularly to many men.

This does not invalidate feelings and responses resulting from the almost continual use of those skills.

It has been my experience on many occasions that if a woman has misgivings about people, those misgivings are not baseless, although explanation of the misgivings may be difficult, sometimes impossible.

[slparker]

What constitutes a Stare please?

Many of the things that trigger a woman's highly evolved instincts and threat assessment skills cannot be clinically and logically explained - particularly to many men.

This does not invalidate feelings and responses resulting from the almost continual use of those skills.

It has been my experience on many occasions that if a woman has misgivings about people, those misgivings are not baseless, although explanation of the misgivings may be difficult, sometimes impossible.

That's absurd. Please don't ever serve on a jury. Pepole are prone to cognitive biases at every waking moment. If someone is uncomfortable at another's presence all it proves is that they are uncomfortable at another's presence.

It is true that we all possess a masterful capacity to discriminate body language, and it is wise to be careful, but intuition is as frequently wrong as it is right.