ADVICE TO NICE GUYS

[Suz]

Can I just ask all the nice guys to NOT stare at women you see while hiking - especially if they are hiking alone.

I had this experience for the first time in the Snowys last week and it was freaky. Woke up at Bradley's and O'briens Hut and then were about 8-10 of us there. Breaking camp, every time I turned around there was this one guy staring at me. I'm not exactly a sight to behold and I don't know what the guy's deal was…but as an advice to all men in the wilderness, PLEASE DO NOT STARE. It doesn't matter if you mean no harm, I cannot tell what your intentions are. Never spoke to the guy but I had spoken to his mtn biking partner and found out we were actually due to camp at O'Keefes hut the same night (I bailed) and that made it even worse. The thought of re-encountering a potential weirdo in the bush who I knew could over power me if he wanted to was not fun.

I'm sure for women with more conventional appeal this happens more often. A stare is like a threat. Please don't do it.

[GPSGuided]

I suspect there are psychos out there and these comments won't be read. In my experience, there are guys (uniformly so far) on tracks who cause me alarms too, no different to the occasional one on city streets. Rare, but definitely there. Just have to make sure there's a safe distance and always have an exit/defence strategy.

[stepbystep]

Nice guys don't stare, they avert their gaze and blush...

[Tacblades]

Well i only camp away from people as much as i can, i love the solitude, so you can tick me off the dodgy list

[Lotsafreshair]

Nice guys don't stare, they avert their gaze and blush...

How very Mr Darcy of you! Delightful.

[Xplora]

Eccentric people can be amusing but when in the bush I try to avoid them as escape is difficult. I have spotted some nutters from time to time as well as some really lonely people. You can spot them pretty easy and my partner always says to me not to make eye contact. Maybe this is an invitation to them or a gesture that it is alright to come over and annoy you. I walked into Big Hole on the Barrington Tops once to find a man who wanted to be a guru and have people come to him for advice. I knew from the first moment he was going to be trouble. As I walked down the hill he saw me and quickly sat with his legs crossed then with a long wave of his arm said 'Welcome to Big Hole.' We tried to find another place to camp but could not manage anywhere out of sight. He brought a stick over to our campfire and then proceeded with pseudo biblical talk. I have dealt with the mentally ill first hand many times and this guy was a bit scary at first and I had to work him out before I could find away to ask him to leave (hours later). There is a comment in the Selby Alley hut book, which is nearby, about a man staring at a lone hiker from behind a tree. That would be a bit weird and I suspect the same man. I was always taught it was rude to stare but sometimes I am fascinated with people and it is a habit born of my job. Sorry Suz. I will try to be better. You are right, it is rude to stare but a glance is OK? Mostly I look at shoes anyway so that should not offend. You can tell a lot about a person from their shoes. Maybe the stare was one of admiration. Glad you are safe.

[DanShell]

If your tongue is hanging out and there is a little bit dribble it would be ok though, wouldn't it??

[GBW]

Are you saying Ni to that old woman?

Um...yes.

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies.

[walk2wineries]

Nice guys don't stare, they avert their gaze and blush...

How sweet. I hope I don't "stare" - occasionally family members have asked what I'm staring at. Usually I replace my glasses and point to a spot a few inches in front of my nose "my focal limit, why?"

[scroggin]

Because I'm not a 'nice guy' can I stare?

Seriously, I would not like to be a women in that position, it would be quite intimidating. But to ask 'nice guys' not to stare is a bit patronising, as though we don't know that staring at a women by herself or even with a group on a bushwalk is uncalled for.

Don't want to downplay it, and I take your point.

[weeds]

....staring is a bit over the top and would make you 'anybody feel uncomfortable'......although I don't think it's the nice guys you need to be worried about.

[puredingo]

......And the blind mountain biker would never ride again......

[Suz]

Because I'm not a 'nice guy' can I stare?

Seriously, I would not like to be a women in that position, it would be quite intimidating. But to ask 'nice guys' not to stare is a bit patronising, as though we don't know that staring at a women by herself or even with a group on a bushwalk is uncalled for.

Don't want to downplay it, and I take your point.

Well i do not mean to be patronising and i'm sorry it came across that way. Clearly you understand that it's a no no to stare at women who are alone, but I guess as this is my first experience of it, I just don't know whether most men (i.e. the nice non psycho ones) know that it's scary. If it was in a pub or something I wouldn't care, but 'out there', totally different story. Of course i know any psychos will do as they please and deliberately intimidate anyone. Just hope that all the non-threats know to behave non-threateningly and then i don't have to freak out unnecessarily.

Actually surprised to hear that a few of you guys have had unpleasant experiences, it had not occurred to me you'd also be uncomfortable at times.

[CasualNerd]

I have definitely noticed single women / pairs of women are very reluctant to even say hello when passing on the tracks. I think it's a bit sad really, I only say hello to be friendly ! I hope it's previous experience because I'm pretty sure I don't look like a serial killer.

I feel safer in the wild than in a big city, it's rough for people who feel otherwise. I also would have assumed most of the loonies wouldn't travel too far out from carparks, but I guess I have spotted some odd ones !

[Xplora]

I used to travel and walk a lot on my own when I was single. Our perceptions of people (judgements) are very often unfounded but over the years I have found I have a good knack of sussing someone out without the need for conversation. When I camp near others I do tend to be observant as opposed to staring. Some people walk on their own because they want the solitude and you do not want to disturb that. Others it is because nobody else wants to do what they do so you just have to do it on your own. I am not a club person and would prefer to walk on my own than hook up with someone I did not know. The other group of solo traveller are the ones nobody wants to go with. Traveling around Australia we ran into dozens of solo travellers and surprising enough many of them were of the last kind. Understanding human behaviour and being able to pick up on the signs has served me well. All of this requires observation, not staring. I also found it uncomfortable when I would sit down to a meal in a restaurant on my own and people would stare. Maybe it was just me being a little paranoid or insecure because I was on my own and everyone was hooked up. I guess our perception of what others are doing could be clouded by the circumstance and how we feel. In the bush, if a solo person was doing the staring then I would be concerned but if they had an partner who seemed normal then it would not bother me. How would you feel waking up in your tent and seeing the shadow of a person standing close outside? That has happened to me.

[north-north-west]

I have definitely noticed single women / pairs of women are very reluctant to even say hello when passing on the tracks. I think it's a bit sad really, I only say hello to be friendly ! I hope it's previous experience because I'm pretty sure I don't look like a serial killer.

This is a constant in the lives of most women. Yes, even in a country as supposedly advanced and modern and 'equal' as Australia. There is no way to tell whether any given person (or group of people) is dangerous. Most women learn from childhood that a certain level of distrust is essential, because abuse and assault are always potentially around the next corner. For many of us, the potential has become reality all too often.
It isn't some conflated OTT radical feminist agenda being pushed when women try to point out the dangers of being a woman in this (or any other) country. It's fact.

If you aren't someone who ever has or ever would use any sort of violence against another, fine, don't take it personally. But when a woman says that they live with the fear of potential violence every second of their lives, believe them. And when women point out how certain all too common attitudes in society feed into the sense of entitlement that all too often leads to forms of assault and abuse, listen to them; and speak out when you encounter those attitudes. No matter how hard it is to speak up, just remember, it's harder for us to live with the reality of what those attitudes can cause.

[end of lecture]

[davidf]

Nnw, great post. I walk solo a lot, have a natural 1000 yard stare and after a while bush it goes further. Male or female I say hello and carry on. Lingerers creep me out too Suz.

Dont let them wreck a good time.

[zac150]

I generally always hike with friends but will always stop and chat with others.

Aside from being friendly, I find it a great way of getting ideas for future adventures. But more importantly I think it important from a safety perspective, I hate to pass someone and not chat with them and then hear on the news they were lost! A quick chat could have directed people in the right direction.

But to sit and stare, very strange.

I think it one of the basics of hut etiquette to make sure all the people sharing a hut are not uncomfortable.

[DarrenM]

This is a constant in the lives of most women. Yes, even in a country as supposedly advanced and modern and 'equal' as Australia. There is no way to tell whether any given person (or group of people) is dangerous. Most women learn from childhood that a certain level of distrust is essential, because abuse and assault are always potentially around the next corner. For many of us, the potential has become reality all too often.
It isn't some conflated OTT radical feminist agenda being pushed when women try to point out the dangers of being a woman in this (or any other) country. It's fact.

If you aren't someone who ever has or ever would use any sort of violence against another, fine, don't take it personally. But when a woman says that they live with the fear of potential violence every second of their lives, believe them. And when women point out how certain all too common attitudes in society feed into the sense of entitlement that all too often leads to forms of assault and abuse, listen to them; and speak out when you encounter those attitudes. No matter how hard it is to speak up, just remember, it's harder for us to live with the reality of what those attitudes can cause.

[end of lecture]

[/quote]

Great post NNW.

[CasualNerd]

Great post NNW.

Agreed. It's a shame this is the case.

[FXST01]

The binoculars were the give away weren't they?

[ribuck]

I once unintentionally creeped out a female.

I dumped my pack in a camping cave at dusk, and went to collect firewood, during which time I saw and acknowledged a solo female walking along a nearby track. On returning to my cave I saw that she was setting up camp in the next cave along. I lit my fire and popped my head around the corner to see if she wanted to share the cooking fire, but by then she had packed up (in the dark) and moved on.

She wouldn't have seen my pack stashed in "my" cave. She probably thought that I had arrived last and had deliberately set up camp right next to her, whereas in fact she had unintentionally set up camp next to me. I understand that people can feel vulnerable in the bush, but I'm sure it's unwarranted 99% of the time.

[wayno]

as bad as it may feel sometimes, remember theres very few adverse incidents between males and females in the wilderness. the odds of a male being more than having uncomfortable body language is pretty slim. tell them you're finding their staring rude and i expect it will stop.

[neilmny]

as bad as it may feel sometimes, remember theres very few adverse incidents between males and females in the wilderness. the odds of a male being more than having uncomfortable body language is pretty slim. tell them you're finding their staring rude and i expect it will stop.

I thought not staring at anyone was a basic manner taught at a young age.

It's possible the guy probably was under the impression that you kept looking at him Suz (each time you turned around....your words).
He probably had the small brain in his small head engaged at the time and was most likely a harmless moron.

I suggest you stay aware of what's going on around you and don't make eye contact with anyone you don't want to engage with,
and by the way nice guys don't need to be told these things!

[stepbystep]

Excellent post nnw, thanks.

Men need this stuff spelled out. Strangely enough I watched the film 'Suffragette' last night, blows my mind just how recent that movement was and just how appalling women were treated, basically because men are physically stronger as a rule, and created a society built on subservience to men, thankfully women are so much stronger in every other way!

What to do about 'that feeling', dunno, follow your intuition I guess as *&%$#! as that is...

[Moondog55]

Unfortunately men are biologically programmed to look at women and not staring takes a lot of reprogramming
I try no to stare but it happens sometimes, and it has nothing to do with how good looking/attractive etc the female is; my feeling is that it depends more on how long it has been since the man last had contact with females

[wayno]

Unfortunately men are biologically programmed to look at women and not staring takes a lot of reprogramming
I try no to stare but it happens sometimes, and it has nothing to do with how good looking/attractive etc the female is; my feeling is that it depends more on how long it has been since the man last had contact with females

speak for yourself but don't include other men in your pseudo science, CIVILISED MEN DON'T STARE AT WOMEN IN AN ANTI SOCIAL WAY

[north-north-west]

First up, it's great to get so much support from men on this thread. It's a pleasure to 'know' you.

I understand that people can feel vulnerable in the bush, but I'm sure it's unwarranted 99% of the time.

It is unwarranted probably 99.999% of the time. But until someone develops an app that instantly and reliably distinguishes the genuinely nice guys from those who are capable of being not so nice - and defends vulnerable people from the not so nice ones - the uncertainty (and hence the fear) remain. And not just in the bush.

[benjabimon]

I thought not staring at anyone was a basic manner taught at a young age.

Apparently not in Sweden. I don't get it, every Swedish person that I have met outside of Sweden has been really cool, but going to their country was one of the rudest experiences in my life.

Anyway, back on topic. What's the moral... have a little self awareness, check yourself? Don't stare.

[zac150]

As a bloke it's hard to say what the "moral" is, as I've not been and will not be in that situation.

But as a guy, I think if you are in a situation in a hut, communication is probably key. As some have pointed out there could be a million reasons to look at someone, maybe the original poster had cool gear or was doing something different who kowns; I'm sure if they (the stare) had spoken the whole atmosphere could have been different.

I'm also assuming that the original poster wasn't comfortable to say hello to the guy staring. I'm not sure id say hello either.